# This Michael Flynn guy just can't stop committing treason **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770 "2017-02-13T19:21:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/1 "2017-02-13T19:21:00Z")
Michael Flynn was fired from the DIA for being “Abusive with staff, didn’t listen, worked against policy, bad management, etc.” But strangely he wasn’t fired for [providing military secrets to foreign governments](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trumps-national-security-adviser-shared-secrets-without-permission-files-show/2016/12/13/72669740-c146-11e6-9578-0054287507db_print.html), which is treason, isn’t it? Well, if it wasn’t, then providing aid and comfort to Russia after Obama applied sanctions is, isn’t it? I think that may be the literal definition of treason. Luckily for him he’s a Republican, and Republicans are tremendous hypocrites. Anyway, slow your roll Michael. The Trump government has 4 years to fuck over the American people. Don’t blow your wad in the first 3 weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/2 "2017-02-13T19:24:40Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Michael Flynn was fired from the DIA for being “Abusive with staff, didn’t listen, worked against policy, bad management, etc.” But strangely he wasn’t fired for [providing military secrets to foreign governments](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trumps-national-security-adviser-shared-secrets-without-permission-files-show/2016/12/13/72669740-c146-11e6-9578-0054287507db_print.html), which is treason, isn’t it? Well, if it wasn’t, then providing aid and comfort to Russia after Obama applied sanctions is, isn’t it? I think that may be the literal definition of treason. It’s not. Neither of your examples is treason, except in a metaphoric sense. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/3 "2017-02-13T19:31:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not. Neither of your examples is treason, except in a metaphoric sense. This is the definition of treason I see: “Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.” How is what Flynn did not treason? Seems to to me to check all the boxes, but I’m not a lawyer. And if it isn’t technically treason, then it’s not for lack of trying. He’ll get it eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/4 "2017-02-13T19:36:29Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > This is the definition of treason I see: > > “Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.” > > How is what Flynn did not treason? Seems to to me to check all the boxes, but I’m not a lawyer. > > And if it isn’t technically treason, then it’s not for lack of trying. He’ll get it eventually. The article quoted above stated that Flynn was reprimanded for sharing military secrets with British and Australian ally officers in Afghanistan. Exactly how is that “treason”, even if not “technically”? I guess your definition of “enemy” includes British and Australian military? Mine doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/5 "2017-02-13T19:40:18Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Seems to to me to check all the boxes, but I’m not a lawyer. I can’t even see how it checks one of the boxes. Maybe if you, like, offer the slightest explanation of why you think Flynn has levied war against the United States or “adhered” to an enemy of ours, that would help anyone know what is going on in your head. Let’s start real simple-like: which enemy of the United States do you have in mind? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/6 "2017-02-13T19:40:19Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > The article quoted above stated that Flynn was reprimanded for sharing military secrets with British and Australian ally officers in Afghanistan. > > Exactly how is that “treason”, even if not “technically”? I guess your definition of “enemy” includes British and Australian military? Mine doesn’t. All countries compete economically if not militarily. We may not call them enemies, but they’re not friends. Especially Australia, who the liar-in-chief seems to be in an argument with. That aside, is Russia not our enemy? I guarantee the DOD has an attack plan against both countries. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/7 "2017-02-13T19:41:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I can’t even see how it checks one of the boxes. Maybe if you, like, offer the slightest explanation of why you think Flynn has levied war against the United States or “adhered” to an enemy of ours, that would help anyone know what is going on in your head. > > Let’s start real simple-like: which enemy of the United States do you have in mind? Russia. Obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/8 "2017-02-13T19:42:01Z")
> **[Sidney Blumenthal · A Short History of the Trump Family: The First Family ·...](https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v39/n04/sidney-blumenthal/a-short-history-of-the-trump-family)** > > Reckoning with Trump means descending into the place that made him. What he represents, above all, is the triumph of an... According to (former Clinton toady) Sidney Blumenthal, Trump has all kinds of mob connections. They may be telling General Moscow Mike to keep his mouth shut. It would be a real shame if something, uh, happened to him. Sing your song, Mike. Sing your song! ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/9 "2017-02-13T19:42:02Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let’s start real simple-like: which enemy of the United States do you have in mind? Apparently Evil Economist (judging by his post in reply to mine) considers every country our enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/10 "2017-02-13T19:42:22Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > This is the definition of treason I see: > > “Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.” > > How is what Flynn did not treason? Seems to to me to check all the boxes, but I’m not a lawyer. > > And if it isn’t technically treason, then it’s not for lack of trying. He’ll get it eventually. Because to understand what words mean, you need to see how they have been construed in precedent. In the case of treason, “enemies,” of the United States are those identified by a formal declaration of war or a equivalent state of armed aggression. There are other issues, but that’s the most clear-cut one. Russia was never our enemy during the period in question, at least with the meaning the word has in the treason statute. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/11 "2017-02-13T19:42:55Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Apparently Evil Economist (judging by his post in reply to mine) considers every country our enemy. Ummmm…every country is a potential enemy. Which is why we don’t pass out military secrets willy-nilly. In fact, that may be why we call them secrets. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/12 "2017-02-13T19:45:01Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Russia. > > Obviously. No, not obviously, because you linked to an article in your OP that didn’t mention Russia at all, and you said that was evidence of “treason.” Ok, so you think Russia qualifies as an enemy. Got it. So what is the aid and comfort that he provided? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/13 "2017-02-13T19:45:09Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > The article quoted above stated that Flynn was reprimanded for sharing military secrets with British and Australian ally officers in Afghanistan. > > Exactly how is that “treason”, even if not “technically”? I guess your definition of “enemy” includes British and Australian military? Mine doesn’t. Call your chiropractor. You’re gonna need some spinal adjustment after bending over backwards to defend Trump and his turncoat clown show. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/14 "2017-02-13T19:47:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > No, not obviously, because you linked to an article in your OP that didn’t mention Russia at all, and you said that was evidence of “treason.” > > Ok, so you think Russia qualifies as an enemy. Got it. So what is the aid and comfort that he provided? Do you follow the news? If not go read a newspaper. If that doesn’t answer the question, come back. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/15 "2017-02-13T19:48:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because to understand what words mean, you need to see how they have been construed in precedent. > > In the case of treason, “enemies,” of the United States are those identified by a formal declaration of war or a equivalent state of armed aggression. > > There are other issues, but that’s the most clear-cut one. Russia was never our enemy during the period in question, at least with the meaning the word has in the treason statute. Right you are, espionage it is: Espionage. Espionage is obtaining classified information pertaining to national defense for use by a foreign nation. If the defendant aids a U.S. ally, treason can’t be the charge, but espionage can. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/16 "2017-02-13T19:48:52Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Do you follow the news? > > If not go read a newspaper. If that doesn’t answer the question, come back. If it helps, you may recall that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were convicted of espionage, but not treason. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/17 "2017-02-13T19:50:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Right you are, espionage it is: > > Espionage. Espionage is obtaining classified information pertaining to national defense for use by a foreign nation. If the defendant aids a U.S. ally, treason can’t be the charge, but espionage can. Bingo! Even if the country is not an ally, it’s not treason unless a state of war or armed aggression exists. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/18 "2017-02-13T19:51:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Bingo! Even if the country is not an ally, it’s not treason unless a state of war or armed aggression exists. They were executed, right? Any reason this isn’t espionage (other than that the Republicans seem to not be prosecuting it)? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/19 "2017-02-13T19:53:43Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Do you follow the news? > > If not go read a newspaper. If that doesn’t answer the question, come back. Hey, dingleberry, you’re incoherent and have no idea what the subject matter is that you are talking about. I’m trying to walk you through this, so you might not want to be such an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770/20 "2017-02-13T19:55:13Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Do you follow the news? > > If not go read a newspaper. If that doesn’t answer the question, come back. Maybe if you squint just right and turn the lights down far enough. Maybe throw down a coupla fifths of vodka. No wait, you’re a patriot, make that Kentucky Bourbon. Or Schlitz. Anyway, here’s your participation trophy. Congratulations. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-michael-flynn-guy-just-cant-stop-committing-treason/779770.md?page=2)