This one goes out to all you Roleplayers out there...

[Podkayne]

*Originally posted by soulmurk *
For a moment assume that your GM is angry with you for some reason outside of the gaming world. Even the best GM cannot be so objective as to not allow that to influence their decisions. Not the greatest example, I admit, but in my mind a conceivably major flaw as there would be no core statistical based rule system to failsafe against the GM having a bad day.

Granted, bad GM’s tend not to keep campaigns going for long, but even the best ones can’t be great all the time. They’re only human too.

If my GM is angry enough at me out-of-game that he is willing to take in-game retribution on my character, this tells me two things:

1. The GM needs to get therapy, get back on his meds, or, quite possibly, just grow up.
2. I need to find a new game.

I played with a GM who did that . . . in high school. And she did it in good ol AD&D. Randomization is not a “failsafe.” The GM can always create a situation that will punish or kill the characters and have it be completely within the rules. And if they did that maliciously, they’d get mad, right? And if they persisted in doing that, you’d leave the game, right? Diceless is no different.

I play with people who play for the love of the game. If any member of the group, including the GM, doesn’t seem to be enjoying himself, there’s something wrong, and we stop and try to work it out. Sometimes somebody has a headache or something, or they’re just tired. So we take the rest of the day off, or we take a break and have some pizza, but we are playing for fun. If fun isn’t happening, play doesn’t continue.

I feel sorry for you if that’s not how it works with the people you play with. If that’s the case, maybe you should look for some new gamers. But rules will not protect you from a GM who won’t stay objective.

I’ve been gaming for 'bout twelve years now, with lotsa different people in lotsa different systems and genres, and I’ve never been in a game where randomization stood in the way of the GM doing as he damn well pleased–which is as it should be. If random events are threatening to take the game in a direction that the GM isn’t willing to let it go, he will (and should) introduce nonrandom elements to put it back on course. Randomness only occurs where the GM permits it, within the boundaries that the GM has chosen. The wise GM knows where to set the boundaries, regardless of whether the source of the randomization is humans alone, or humans and a random number generator.

Yes, but it isn’t the only part. If it is reduced to just that then you might as well call it what it is, improvisational theater or group creative writing.

Is “Cowboys and Indians” improvisational theater? Is “Let’s Pretend” creative writing?

If the term “game” can embrace chess, and Twister, and basketball, and Super Mario Brothers, and Pictionary, and D&D, and a V:TM LARP, why is diceless roleplaying so emphatically not a game?

It’s obviously not theater or writing, so until somebody invents a new word for it, I think “game” is a big enough term to handle it.

[soulmurk]

Originally posted by Podkayne
Is “Cowboys and Indians” improvisational theater? Is “Let’s Pretend” creative writing?

No, those are fantasies that children, for the most part, act out.

[quote]
If the term “game” can embrace chess, and Twister, and basketball, and Super Mario Brothers, and Pictionary, and D&D, and a V:TM LARP, why is diceless roleplaying so emphatically not a game?*

The common factor that all of those games have in common is a prop of some kind, be it a piece of plastic with colored dots or identifiable pieces.

Several people making up fantastic stories they’d like their characters to experience while another tells them if their story is good enough based solely on their discretion is not a game, it’s merely a group of people being creative, in essence no different than a few co-workers communally fantasizing about their companies growth and their impending wealth, etc.

If my GM is angry enough at me out-of-game that he is willing to take in-game retribution on my character, this tells me two things

I would agree entirely, but that wasn’t the exact situation I was trying to impress. Even normal, stable, average, intelligent humans have bad days. While that may not necessarily translate into a vindictive assault on your character, it could, in a system based entirely on his/her whims, subconsciously affect their decisions. Again, I admit it isn’t the best example of what I’m trying to express, but it’ll have to do.

Diceless is no different

But it is different. If my character were to be slain or maimed or otherwise harmed in a system based on statistics and probability, I can accept that things didn’t go my way, regardless of whether the GM seemed to be out to get me or not. In a system based on one person’s discretion, barring my attempting something competely ridiculous or dangerous, how could I accept the same?

This discussion is obviously never going to be resolved and has completely gone off of the original OP. Neither of us will ever convince the other of our views, so let’s just agree to disagree and call it good.

Good luck with your system.

[ruralrage]

I would agree if the system was a live action role playing game. I have done a few of those and statistics seem to be the only way to do things. Perhaps what helps me as a GM more than not is that i won’t know anyone in my game save for username. I can be more objective that way, given that i have no ties to anyone.

What also might help is that i am all for the story’s advancement and how each player fits into that…

[kiz]

I do Free Form (FFRPG) in a couple of forums. I’m somewhat of a novice, but from what I’ve read in this thread plus what I know from a couple of RPG’ing friends, FFRPG is one of your better bets.

Yes, it’s basically group creative writing.

You create your own characters, plotlines, and such, all within the framework of the forum “kingdom” itself. One forum I’m in has bans against any sort of god-like character (except for a NPC and it has to relate directly to the plot), as well as any character who’s totally villianous. Nobody has ever complained. It works because you, as the writer/RPGer, have to use your wiles to create a multi-dimensional character.

What’s even more interesting is the creative process it entails. You can post a plotline of your very own, but it’s more advantageous to IM with others in the forum and create your own storylines. I’ve been in a chatroom with 4-5 other members/writers discussing plot while one of us is simultaneously posting the story.

FWIW, I’ve never done D&D nor Final Fantasy-type games. They’re interesting in their own right, but I wonder if my creativity would get the same kind of workout…

[ruralrage]

I may actually design a second game in the near future using Free Form so to speak. It will require a lot more creativity than not. The story would deal with each character being a god. Now the thing is…there is only one domain for all the gods to control so there would be some neat things to play with so to speak…
but that will come much later after i get my first game up and running

[Podkayne]

sigh, fine. I really don’t understand why some people are so . . . threatened by diceless games.

I still disagree completely with the idea that it’s all about fantasizing, like, “Oh, gee, it’d be soooo cooool if my character did this.” That’s not playing in character, and the GM doesn’t resolve actions based on what’s cool. But, yes, I don’t think either of us will ever convince the other.

Next time I get into this debate, I will demand, upfront, a definition of what constitutes a “game.” As a side note, not something to continue the debate, but something you might want to ponder: your requirement that a game have tokens would eliminate charades, Mafia, twenty questions . . .

[tracer]

I don’t engage in roleplaying games to play them, I engage in roleplaying games to win them!

MUNCHKIN POWER!! WOOOOO!!! <hack>

[Drastic]

I really don’t understand why some people are so . . . threatened by diceless games.

Inexperience with them, primarily, I think.

Still, I suspect there’s a lot of talking-past-each-other going on. soulmurk seems very concerned about lack of statistics that generate probabilities, and I haven’t actually run into a diceless system that doesn’t use light ones if only to express relative levels of character abilities.

soulmurk, if you’re interested in diceless systems set around being gods, of a sort, check out Nobilis. It’s between publishers currently, I gather, so it’s somewhat hard to track down a copy, but worth the effort.