# This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784 "2010-08-19T20:08:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/241 "2010-08-21T04:17:07Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I’m concerned that these very smart Austrian school economists will use their evil knowledge to lift themselves up by the bootstraps and gain control of a significant portion of the world’s wealth. You know, like Warren Buffet grew his fortune from a few thousand dollars to tens of billions using his savvy evil registered democrat knowledge. > > But the evil Austrians (my ancestry is a quarter Austrian!) are completely anonymous. Nobody knows who the self-made Austrian school billionaires are. > > And we all know who else is/was Austrian? Hitler! And Schwarzenegger. And Kissinger. That’s quite a track record for bullshit. Oh, and the Austrian school’s manifesto is in the form of a comic book. Could Victor Von Doom be far behind? There is no real reason for me to respond to this very un-serious post by The Second Stone. Why don’t you try again with some serious critiques of Austrian theory. Why not add something substantial to the thread? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/242 "2010-08-21T04:27:59Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Looks like we need a government that at the least pretends to embrace some socialist ideals and at the same time stops large companies from ripping off people. Australia, Canada etc have weathered the storm that plagued the USA pretty well. In Australia [& from what I understand Canada] we had surpluses in the good times and now we have a major deficit brought on by increased government spending in the tough times, this is common sense economics as it keeps the money moving and stops banks hoarding the money when times are tough. The issue is around how large this debt should be and are we going to be able to pay it down? > > So jdroefield how do you feel about how Australia and Canada run their economies? > > Also what is the measure of a great society? > > I am genuily interested in your opinion, I may not agree but that’s OK. I certainly don’t want large companies ripping off people. What we don’t want is corporations taking over our government. Thats called Fascism. We want business and government to be completely separate. Businesses must rise and fall on their own merits. To become wealthy they must provide a good or service that is superior in quality otherwise they go bankrupt. No bailouts. There are certainly other countries that aren’t in the trouble we are in. There are various reasons for that. What you describe, surpluses in good times and deficits in bad times is the way Keynesian theory is supposed to work. If we actually EVER ran a surplus things wouldn’t be so bad. But it doesn’t work that way. We run deficits ALL the time and are expected to run especially high deficits in a downturn. If we had sound money and no Federal Reserve we wouldn’t have recessions and depressions at all. And we could run surpluses year after year. Australia and Canada don’t have the debt that we have. That is a mark in their favor. They are far from perfect. As far as what I think is the measure of a great society, how about this: The wealth and prosperity of its people. The education and achievements of its citizens and institutions. The low level of crime and safety of its cities and towns. How about that? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/243 "2010-08-21T04:34:04Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > [@Miller](#): > > > > Okay, this confuses me. If the underlying ideas behind Keynesian economics are so dumb even a child would laugh at them, then why do so many economists agree with Keynes? > > ‘Agreeing with Keynes’ is a mighty broad brush to paint economists with. In fact, even _Keynes_ didn’t agree with Keynes all the time. Keynes wrote a hell of a lot of stuff, and it’s not all consistent and it does not equate to what the government is doing today. > > Keynes specifically opposed counter-cyclical government stimulus. He did so because he felt that government wasn’t capable of responding fast enough. > > As for why Keynes has gained in popularity - that’s an interesting question, because Keynes was quite out of favor for a long time. And as far as I can tell, the only reason he made a ‘comeback’ was because economists felt like A) you have to do something, and B) monetarism had reaches its limits because of a liquidity trap. In other words, Keynes was the only game in town if you’re an interventionist sort, so miraculously he became ‘right’. > > > [@](#): > > > > Are they deliberately endorsing theories that they know will be destructive to the economy? Why would they do that? How would destroying the economy be of benefit to them? > > All economic theories that attempt to be mathematical have to make simplifying assumptions. In the case of Keynesian Economics, the assumption is that the productive capacity and labor capacity of a country can be reduced to aggregate values and manipulated as such. The Austrians think that this is a bad simplifying assumption, that labor and capital are not easily manipulable without destroying value and the information needed for the efficient functioning of markets. > > Which one is right? The problem is that we don’t have a control economy to test against. Christina Romer promised that if the stimulus was enacted, unemployment would not rise above 8%. It did. It rose WAY above that number. Does that mean the stimulus failed? According to some, yes. According to others, it just means that the model had bad data input into it (i.e. “Things were worse than we thought.”). These claims are essentially unfalsifiable. The economy is so big and so complex, and contains so many confounding factors, that you can always find something to hang your ideological hat on. > > As for the Austrians not being serious because they don’t have mathematical models - The problem for them was that they didn’t have the math required to study it in that way. They just believed that the problem of production was a problem of coordination of resources, and that the economic was too complex to model in a simple way that would allow you to predict economic outputs given certain economic inputs. > > Today, an Austrian would say that the economy is a complex, adaptive system of chaotic output, but with organizing rules that have caused emergent order. The study of such systems is of much interest these days. Other systems like this would be the climate, ecosystems, ant colonies, and the human nervous system. By their nature, they are unpredictable in specifics, even if they are understandable in the aggregate. This makes them very hard to model. > > For example, you can simulate an ant colony once you know the basic rules of ant behavior. You can build a virtual ant colony, let it run, and see the kind of behavior you would see in a real colony. > > But what you won’t be able to do is predict what specifically will happen to the colony if you disturb it. Change its environment by adding food, or damage the colony by pouring water on it. You may know in general that the colony will respond with various characteristics, but you don’t know the form it will take, because the new order emerges from the random walk of ants as they seek out new food sources or move to repair the colony. > > Sometimes, these systems are predictable within a linear range, but then exhibit discontinuities that are unpredictable. For example, no one really knows what the world market’s tolerance for U.S. debt is. No one could predict exactly when the financial crisis would hit, even though they knew that there was a lot going wrong in the finance sector. When we’re in a bubble, a lot of people can see that the bubble has formed. But no one knows when it will pop, or what will happen when it does. > > Economic history is full of these discontinuities, or tipping points. A new product comes along and slowly enters the market, while the price drops. But suddenly it drops below the price of a major alternative, and the entire market shudders and everyone switches over leaving the old product behind. But these things are not predictable. The best analysts in the world can’t beat the stock market by more than a few percentage points, because we simply have no good models of the economy that can be used with any sort of specificity. > > Now, maybe Keynes was right, and in the aggregate all those structural factors and chaotic responses will cancel each other out and you’ll get a smooth response from the economy to your mucking about with the money supply and throwing cash around to get everyone demanding more stuff. But so far, there is no proof of that. There’s not a single case we can point to where a big fiscal stimulus had the effect predicted for it before the fact. So the notion that economic output can be predictably controlled by controlling the inputs with fiscal stimulus is just a theory. It is far from proven. > > In 1995, a majority of economists polled believed that Roosevelt’s New Deal had no effect on or lengthened the Great Depression. Now, a majority of economists think differently. But there has been no new breakthrough in economics that would add any new evidence to the argument. > > What I think has happened is that some economists have simply been rattled by the last decade, and have lost confidence in the old consensus. That, and the fact that the policymakers have had a vested interest in supporting a theory which encourages people to give the policymakers their money and political authority over them. I am very impressed with this post. You clearly know your history and economics unlike some around here. I predict that Austrian economics will become a well known competing school of thought to the Keynesian theories in the next decade. Even if one does not agree, it deserves to be seriously debated and presented as an option for the American people to consider. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/244 "2010-08-21T04:35:21Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > If we had sound money and no Federal Reserve we wouldn’t have recessions and depressions at all. Is that the way it was in the 1800’s, when we were on the gold standard, with no Fed? I forget, somebody look it up… [ul] [li][Panic of 1819](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1819)[/li][li][Panic of 1837](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1837)[/li][li][Panic of 1857](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1857)[/li][li][Panic of 1873](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1873)[/li][li][Panic of 1884](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1884)[/li][li][Panic of 1890](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1890)[/li][li][Panic of 1893](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1893)[/li][li][Panic of 1896](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1896)[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/245 "2010-08-21T04:37:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > [@sleestak](#): > > > > Where do you get the silly notion that you have a right to money others have created? > > > > Slee > > It’s in the Constitution. it’s is what the Republic was founded on. Pay your damn taxes. Do you really think that the Founders envisioned an income tax, not to mention the many taxes we are burdened with to pay for a government vastly beyond the limits of the Republic they constructed? There was never supposed to be a tax on income. The founders would be horrified if they knew we had to pay forty percent of our income to the government each year. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/246 "2010-08-21T04:40:26Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > I believe that if McCain was elected in 2008 literally nothing would be substantially different policy wise. The media would just spin things differently. > > > > The “lesser of two evils” mentality is destroying this nation. Peoples standards are so low. There are enough betrayals from a liberal perspective for all of you to be marching in the streets next to the tea partiers. But you won’t because you are scared to death of a president Sarah Palin in 2012. This has got to stop. > > One of us. One of us. One of us. > > Since the only way to dissolve the current system would be a violent revolution why are you writing 30 page screeds on the internet? You should instead be training with dudes in the woods. Or be like the rest of us – do your job, keep your head down, and crack bad jokes about the latest outrage of our betters. Oh, _progressive_ is the new word for liberal? That’s cool, that’s cool. Oh hey, American generals are worried about “foreign influences” in Iraq and Afghanistan. Isn’t that ironical? And so on. Dick jokes are also acceptable. 😃 Yeah, I certainly don’t want to join a militia. Isn’t there a happy medium between violent uprising and passively participating in a predetermined horse race every four years? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/247 "2010-08-21T04:44:14Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Peter Schiff, nah he couldn’t be… > > > [@](#): > > > > … [{Peter} Schiff](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Schiff) voices strong support for the Austrian School, and says it was first introduced to him by his father, Irwin Schiff. … > > OK there’s got to be another Irwin Schiff, right, > > > [@](#): > > > > … [Irwin A. Schiff](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irwin_Schiff) (born 1928) is a prominent figure in the tax protester movement. Schiff is known for writing and promoting literature that claims the United States income tax is applied incorrectly. He has lost several civil cases against the federal government and has a record of multiple convictions for various federal tax crimes. Schiff is serving a 13-plus year sentence for tax crimes (with his location listed as the Terre Haute Federal Correctional Institution). His projected release date is 7 October 2016. Irwin Schiff is also the father of stockbroker and United States Senate candidate Peter Schiff. … > > Sins of the father and all, but I’m betting the apple didn’t even fall out of this tree. :rolleyes: > > CMC fnord! > The only person who’s advice on high finance I trust … is Willie Sutton (and [Woody](http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Pretty_Boy_Floyd.htm) of [course](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_nPA57rpr4)). What is your point? Its called civil disobedience. If enough of us peacefully refused to pay our taxes we could change this system we currently have. There is also a very persuasive argument that the income tax was not properly ratified and is therefore illegal. Look at this site: [http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp](http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp) There is no shame in being a tax protester. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/248 "2010-08-21T04:46:41Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > > It’s in the Constitution. it’s is what the Republic was founded on. Pay your damn taxes. > > Do you really think that the Founders envisioned an income tax, not to mention the many taxes we are burdened with to pay for a government vastly beyond the limits of the Republic they constructed? I believe the founders trusted the people to know what kind of government they wanted, and what kind of tax they thought was just. That is why they created a representative form of government, with the ability to amend the Constitution as the world changes. The Constitution is not a suicide pact. > [@](#): > > There was never supposed to be a tax on income. The founders would be horrified if they knew we had to pay forty percent of our income to the government each year. [Benjamin Franklin, Letter to Robert Morris, 1783](http://www.foundersquotes.com/Benjamin_Franklin/all-the-property-that-is-necessary-to-a-man-for-the-conservation-of-the-individual/) > [@](#): > > **“All the property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it.”** ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/249 "2010-08-21T04:51:11Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > If enough of us peacefully refused to pay our taxes we could change this system we currently have. Why don’t you just use the Constitutionally provided means for changing the law, or amending the Constitution? Or is that not convenient to your ideology? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/250 "2010-08-21T05:00:19Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > There was never supposed to be a tax on income. The founders would be horrified if they knew we had to pay forty percent of our income to the government each year. Considering that they were a bunch of rich guys I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they’d hate the idea of a tax that actually puts a fair burden on the wealthy. So what? Why should we look to the principles of people who, again, were a bunch of genocidal, slaveowning rich men for guidance? They probably would have been horrified that women and poor people and blacks can vote too; should we throw out those changes too? > [@jrodefeld](#): > > What is your point? Its called civil disobedience. If enough of us peacefully refused to pay our taxes we could change this system we currently have. Yes, change it into a bloodthirsty anarchy when everything collapses because everyone is refusing to pay for the governmental machinery that keeps the country running. That extra money in your pocket will feel real good when you are being beaten to death by the local warlord’s thugs as your house burns. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/251 "2010-08-21T05:01:35Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > There is no shame in being a tax protester. In Libertopia, if I peacefully squat on your property and eat your vegetables, is there any shame in that? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/252 "2010-08-21T05:42:20Z")
Gold is very useful for making corrosion-resistant electrical contacts. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/253 "2010-08-21T06:00:04Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > What does that prove? I went to a different rally in a different state and my experience is different. There are rallies that are connected to the GOP and those that are independent. The independent rallies and protests tend to be more diverse. The GOP is attempting to portray an image and hijack the narrative. That was one of the very first tea party rallies held and was also the largest. If the GOP had their tentacles in the Tea Party at that time, then it was all a sham to begin with. It also took place in one of the few major cities in America where blacks are the majority of the population. If THAT can’t get 15% turnout (hell, I can’t see evidence that it had 1%), then nothing can. Hell, [here](http://wsbradio.com/slideshow/inpage/herman-cain-at-the-cobb-tea-party-7309) is another one, also in Atlanta, where the main speaker was the most popular token black that the tea party has to offer (Herman “Godfather’s Pizza” Cain). Count the black people. I’ll help you out. Let’s see, there is one (Herman)… well, that one guy in the fourth row has a slight tan or a shadow on him, so we’ll say two. Did I miss any? It’s time to put up and tell us which protest you’re referring to, so we can verify for ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/254 "2010-08-21T06:12:27Z")
Okay, I’ve read the OP’s manifesto. Skimmed yesterday. Read it in full today, twice, once this morning and again this evening. A few thoughts. First, if you want to engage people in discussion, you should leave out the _ad hominems_, the condescension and the question begging (e.g., not everyone who disagrees with you is stupid). I counted half a dozen of these in the first paragraph and would estimate about a hundred across the whole piece. With several dozen more in the posts since. This is no way to influence people. Second, although the thesis isn’t altogether unsound, it’s not particularly good either. Submitted as a paper in an undergraduate class in political economics (without the _ad hominems_, etc. and adding citations), it probably would merit about a “B.” Not bad, but not qualifying you as high poobah of national economic policy. Especially when it appears you don’t actually have any credentials in the subject. In this context, “believe me” doesn’t mean squat. Third, it’s all very well to say how you would organize things if you were high poobah writing on a blank slate, but that’s not how things work in the real world. In the real world, these and myriad related topics go through the sausage grinder of politics, where the libertarians are but one voice among dozens. In this mish mash, the only part of the libertarian agenda which sticks is the part about cutting taxes, which only makes the deficit problem worse. Ever hear of the law of unintended consequences? Fourth, you do your argument no service by getting side-tracked on the gold standard issue. As you say (Post #182), “True wealth is manufacturing jobs, goods and services, industry and capital accumulation.” What medium of exchange we use for those things - whether gold-based, wampum, fiat money or something else - is trivial. All that matters is that the medium of exchange be understood and trusted. The real wealth is the stuff. Fifth, if you want to understand why we don’t have as much prosperity as formerly - which is both true and untrue - you should expand your view to such problems as the loss of our manufacturing base, the balance of trade deficit and externalities like pollution and global warming. Really, economics if frightfully complicated. You’ve only grazed the surface. There is more, but I’m not inclined to bother. Frankly, I don’t engage in debates where I’ve been told in advance that disagreement means I don’t understand. Besides, it seems you already have more Interlocutors than you can handle. So, feel no need to respond to this post. I’ve only gone to the trouble for your own edification. Take from it (or not) as you see fit. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/255 "2010-08-21T06:41:53Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > If we had sound money and no Federal Reserve we wouldn’t have recessions and depressions at all. And we could run surpluses year after year. Seriously? [Black Friday](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(1869)) [Panic of 1884](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1884) [Panic of 1896](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1896) [Panic of 1901](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1901) [Panic of 1907](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907) Hell, the move to the Federal Reserve System was in large part a response to the 1907 panic. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/256 "2010-08-21T06:51:44Z")
Upon further reading, I see that **Fear Itself** has already replied to your bogus claim, so ignore my previous post with the list of pre-Great Depression panics. Feel free to respond to him/her, though. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/257 "2010-08-21T09:11:10Z")
I must admit that despite thinking you’re mostly deluded I respect the fact that you are willing to try and defend your positions and to do so without personal animosity (except to Der Trihs, but I’d ignore him if I were you. Neither of you will change each others mind). A lot of your points are even very sound. Balancing the budget, reducing spending, promoting economic competetiveness and stopping overseas adventurism are all worthy goals that many people on both sides of the aisle agree on. What I don’t understand is why you think this requires completely rebuilding the economic model? These things aren’t direct results of leaving the gold standard, they are problems caused by America’s disfunctional politics. This sort of mis-identification of cause and effect is a common thread running through all your arguments. For instance, you claim that wealth inequality has been increasing and that this is the direct result of welfare programs and inflation. I would suggest that it has much more to do with globalisation (and the shift in labour markets that has brought with it) and the rest of the world catching up to America’s economic success. You should note that all of these are direct results of the Free Markets. It’s not even a given that America’s previous economic leadership was entirely due to it’s limited government and low regulation, though I would say that it helped, since you also benefitted from vast virgin resources, a huge internal market (very helpful in the time before globalisation) and the rest of the world screwing itself in two world wars. By ignoring these nuances you have come to form the basis for your theory on unsound assumptions such as: - More economic freedom and limited government is the only way to achieve prosperity. - The move away from this is the main reason for America’s decline. Both of which are, in my view, missing most of the big picture. This results in you proposing economic theories that just don’tmatch up to reality. This is prime example or the trap Libertarians fall into: > [@jrodefeld](#): > > What the fuck are you talking about? I would “hand” the money back to the people. The wealthy control the money now, to the detriment of the poor and middle class. > > And how can you hand “freedom” to only one class of people? That is absurd. > > In a libertarian society, all people are free to keep all of their money. All people are protected from acts of aggression from another. There is no coercion allowed. All voluntary activity is permissible. Economic freedon _is not the only sort of freedom_. If you have a choice between working 12 hours a day for 2 dollars an hour or starving on the streets you may have economic freedom, but you aren’t free. This is a major flaw in almost all Libertarian ideology, and what leads people like Der Trihs to call it ‘stupid and evil’. Because if you care about the poor, it is. These are the sorts of problems with your brand of Libertarianism that are immediately obvious, even to the layman. You get called crazy because you are ideologically blinded to such nuances. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/258 "2010-08-21T16:18:04Z")
[http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/joe\_conason/2009/03/27/deficits](http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/joe_conason/2009/03/27/deficits) Jrod is digging in the wrong place. The deficits are a Repub creation. They proudly announce that “deficits don’t matter” and govern accordingly. They loot the treasury until they get voted out. That is when fiscal responsibility suddenly becomes a calling. Reagan, Bush the Geezer and Bush the spoiled brat all governed like the treasury was a piggy bank to be looted and doled out to the wealthy. Tax cuts to the wealthy are hard to justify in mathematical terms. It requires an air that the rich are special, chosen by god, and should gather up as many resources and as much power as possible. They don’t really hide it. The Dems are far more reasonable in fiscal terms. But the repubs scream about “tax and spend dems” so much, that the majority begins to believe it. The evidence is contrary. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/259 "2010-08-21T17:29:27Z")
[When Wall Street Rules, We Get Wall Street Rules | HuffPost Impact](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/when-wall-street-rules-we_b_688866.html) Jrod has some vague concepts about what went wrong. The fact is the wealthy got in charge. They bent the system to enrich themselves at every opportunity. The wealth of America did not disappear. It just slid up the ladder to the richest 2 percent. The people who need the money the least keep getting more. As our jobs go away, the people moving them offshore get richer and richer. They would not do it for free. Our economy is fundamentally flawed by it’s grab of short term profits. We decry a planned economy as foreign and unAmerican. Yet we have eroded our manufacturing for short term profits. It is a weakening of America for quick money. Exec salaries and bonuses are determined yearly. The reward can set one up for life. There is no incentive to put a business on a long term footing. Investing a lot is R &D and product improvement would result in a lower profit for a short time. Therefore less bonuses for the execs. So they ship everything they can offshore. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/260 "2010-08-21T17:36:02Z")
Attention, **jrodefeld** , would you _please_ respond to this post? You have said that “Gold maintains its value for thousands of years”. You’ve made this same basic claim many itmes in this thread and more times in your earlier threads. Yet every time you make it, I bring up the same objeciton, and you’re not willing to answer that objection. In fact, if you go pack to post 168 of this thread, you will see that I posted a list of 5 objections to your main line of argument. I note, and like others I respect, that you’ve answered so many posts in this thread. Yet I also note without surprise that for some reason you skipped over post 168 without any response. In fact, in post 168 I predicted that you would not respond to it. My prediction was correct. Can Ron Paul or Ludwig von Mises make predictions with that kind of accuracy? Now, to make things simple for you, I will repost what I wrote in 168, which as I said was merely a clone of what I wrote in your earlier threads. This will thus be your third chance to answer these arguments. \*\*Real Criticism of jrodefeld’s argument #1:\*\*You say that “I think most of us sense that this country is not the great country it used to be. We don’t have the same type of prosperity.” I agree with that statement. We don’t have the same type of prosperity that we used to have. We have much more prosperity than we used to have. Even after the recent economic troubles, we are still vastly wealthier than we were in the era of the gold standard. It really doesn’t matter what measure we use: GDP, personal income, home ownership, education level, etc… It all doesn’t matter whether we adjust for inflation or not. The fact remains the same. The idea that we have less prosperity than we used to is absurd, when any decent source will confirm that we have more. \*\*Real Criticism of jrodefeld’s argument #2:\*\*You say “the early stages of hyperinflation are here.” The early stages of hyperinflation are not here, nor even the early stages of ordinary inflation. The current rate of inflation is roughly three tenths of a percent. Do you hear me? I said **THREE TENTHS OF A PERCENT**. That means that inflation is not occurring. To warn about hyperinflation is absurd. We’re currently at high risk for almost any economic problem _except_ inflation. The biggest fear right now among sensible people is _deflation_, which is the opposite of inflation. Home prices have gone _down_ about 30% in the past three years, not up. To say that hyperinflation is occurring is like telling Pakistanis that their river levels are too low. Ah, but now I hear you saying that hyperinflation will occur in the future. Will it really? When I walk past a bank, I see 5-year and 10-year CDs and bonds going for interest rates around 2-3%, even lower than the rates from a few months ago. If high inflation was actually around the corner, why is the market not predicting it? **Real Criticism of jrodefeld’s argument #3:** You say “gold holds it value well over time.” Gold is uniquely bad at holding its value over long periods of time. For example, in 1981 gold prices rose over $800 per ounce. By 1998 they were down to almost $200 per ounce. Gold does not hold it’s value over time. **Real Criticism of jrodefeld’s argument #4:** You say “Monopolies in a free market are traditionally very rare and almost never occur.” This is completely untrue. Are you familiar with Standard Oil? How about the Northern Securities Company? How about the Beef Trust, the Sugar Trust, and the monopolies that controlled over a hundred American industries in the early 20th century? Clearly monopolies occur extremely often in free market economies. They are rare only in well-regulated economies. **Real Criticism of jrodefeld’s argument #5** You say “As I have shown in this post, the Progressive Utopias promised by your idols FDR and Lyndon Johnson are disappearing”. You haven’t shown any such thing. Every significant agency and economic reform enacted by FDR or LBJ is still here. Every one. Not one exception. Your statement is merely inane. Once again, I await your responses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=14)