# This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784 "2010-08-19T20:08:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/261 "2010-08-21T21:31:36Z")
> [@](#): > > This argument is equally applicable to Libertarian Free-Market economics. The whole concept is based on the idea that people will always act in their own best interests and make rational economic decisions. Anybody with an ounce of common sense knows that theory doesn’t survive contact with the real world, the advertising industry is the most obvious proof of that. > > I don’t have any problem with poking holes in Keynesian economic theory, or any other in fact, but all you’re doing is discrediting a whole bunch of ideas while espousing another bunch of ideas that fail on exactly the same criteria. I also have yet to see any attempt on your part of the ‘intellectual descussion’ you claim to be interested in, all you have produced is vague hand-waving. By the evidence on display I would guess you have about as much economic knowledge as I do, maybe less, and I’ve never read an economics book in my life. Since you admit to never having read an economics book in your life I am not surprised by your mis understanding of free market economics. The point is that the Austrian school proposes a hands off approach because the economy cannot be centrally planned and scientifically managed with mathematical equations designed to predict the behavior of human beings, given that they ARE irrational and unpredictable. I was defending the Austrian emphasis on common sense and self evident axioms and explaining why mathematical equations and the like are not as important in relation to the study of human behavior. Of course people don’t always act rationally. No Austrian or libertarian scholar that I know of claims that they do. The primary argument in favor of the Austrian School of economics, putting aside the minutiae of abstract theories, is the stunning accuracy of their predictions. Given the current crisis and the lack of effect of Obama’s economic policies, we should look to the Austrians for an alternative solution. Primarily that would be liquidation of debt and malinvestment, and allowing a true market correction to occur. Listen to an article written by Ron Paul shortly after the meltdown began: > [@](#): > > The financial meltdown the economists of the Austrian School predicted has arrived. > > We are in this crisis because of an excess of artificially created credit at the hands of the Federal Reserve System. The solution being proposed? More artificial credit by the Federal Reserve. No liquidation of bad debt and malinvestment is to be allowed. By doing more of the same, we will only continue and intensify the distortions in our economy – all the capital misallocation, all the malinvestment – and prevent the market’s attempt to re-establish rational pricing of houses and other assets. > > Last night the president addressed the nation about the financial crisis. There is no point in going through his remarks line by line, since I’d only be repeating what I’ve been saying over and over – not just for the past several days, but for years and even decades. > > Still, at least a few observations are necessary. > > The president assures us that his administration “is working with Congress to address the root cause behind much of the instability in our markets.” Care to take a guess at whether the Federal Reserve and its money creation spree were even mentioned? > > We are told that “low interest rates” led to excessive borrowing, but we are not told how these low interest rates came about. They were a deliberate policy of the Federal Reserve. As always, artificially low interest rates distort the market. Entrepreneurs engage in malinvestments – investments that do not make sense in light of current resource availability, that occur in more temporally remote stages of the capital structure than the pattern of consumer demand can support, and that would not have been made at all if the interest rate had been permitted to tell the truth instead of being toyed with by the Fed. > > Not a word about any of that, of course, because Americans might then discover how the great wise men in Washington caused this great debacle. Better to keep scapegoating the mortgage industry or “wildcat capitalism” (as if we actually have a pure free market!). > > Speaking about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the president said: “Because these companies were chartered by Congress, many believed they were guaranteed by the federal government. This allowed them to borrow enormous sums of money, fuel the market for questionable investments, and put our financial system at risk.” > > Doesn’t that prove the foolishness of chartering Fannie and Freddie in the first place? Doesn’t that suggest that maybe, just maybe, government may have contributed to this mess? And of course, by bailing out Fannie and Freddie, hasn’t the federal government shown that the “many” who “believed they were guaranteed by the federal government” were in fact correct? > > Then come the scare tactics. If we don’t give dictatorial powers to the Treasury Secretary “the stock market would drop even more, which would reduce the value of your retirement account. The value of your home could plummet.” Left unsaid, naturally, is that with the bailout and all the money and credit that must be produced out of thin air to fund it, the value of your retirement account will drop anyway, because the value of the dollar will suffer a precipitous decline. As for home prices, they are obviously much too high, and supply and demand cannot equilibrate if government insists on propping them up. > > It’s the same destructive strategy that government tried during the Great Depression: prop up prices all costs. The Depression went on for over a decade. On the other hand, when liquidation was allowed to occur in the equally devastating downturn of 1921, the economy recovered within less than a year. > > The president also tells us that Senators McCain and Obama will join him at the White House today in order to figure out how to get the bipartisan bailout passed. The two senators would do their country much more good if they stayed on the campaign trail debating which one is the bigger celebrity, or whatever it is that occupies their attention these days. > > F.A. Hayek won the Nobel Prize for showing how central banks’ manipulation of interest rates creates the boom-bust cycle with which we are sadly familiar. In 1932, in the depths of the Great Depression, he described the foolish policies being pursued in his day – and which are being proposed, just as destructively, in our own: > > Instead of furthering the inevitable liquidation of the maladjustments brought about by the boom during the last three years, all conceivable means have been used to prevent that readjustment from taking place; and one of these means, which has been repeatedly tried though without success, from the earliest to the most recent stages of depression, has been this deliberate policy of credit expansion…. > > To combat the depression by a forced credit expansion is to attempt to cure the evil by the very means which brought it about; because we are suffering from a misdirection of production, we want to create further misdirection – a procedure that can only lead to a much more severe crisis as soon as the credit expansion comes to an end…. It is probably to this experiment, together with the attempts to prevent liquidation once the crisis had come, that we owe the exceptional severity and duration of the depression. > > The only thing we learn from history, I am afraid, is that we do not learn from history. > > The very people who have spent the past several years assuring us that the economy is fundamentally sound, and who themselves foolishly cheered the extension of all these novel kinds of mortgages, are the ones who now claim to be the experts who will restore prosperity! Just how spectacularly wrong, how utterly without a clue, does someone have to be before his expert status is called into question? > > Oh, and did you notice that the bailout is now being called a “rescue plan”? I guess “bailout” wasn’t sitting too well with the American people. > > The very people who with somber faces tell us of their deep concern for the spread of democracy around the world are the ones most insistent on forcing a bill through Congress that the American people overwhelmingly oppose. The very fact that some of you seem to think you’re supposed to have a voice in all this actually seems to annoy them. > > I continue to urge you to contact your representatives and give them a piece of your mind. I myself am doing everything I can to promote the correct point of view on the crisis. Be sure also to educate yourselves on these subjects – the Campaign for Liberty blog is an excellent place to start. Read the posts, ask questions in the comment section, and learn. > > H.G. Wells once said that civilization was in a race between education and catastrophe. Let us learn the truth and spread it as far and wide as our circumstances allow. For the truth is the greatest weapon we have. > [@](#): > > Several things immediately spring to mind here: > > - You confuse cause and effect. Whilst there may have been purely monetary based collapses (though I can’t think of one), in almost all cases monetary collapse is actually a sympton of other problems. Placing the blame on ‘paper money’ is simply twisting the evidence to fit your claims. > - What in your mind would be the practical difference between a fiat currency collapse and everybody cashing in their paper money for gold? As far as know what a fiat currency collapse is. > > As far as I can tell everybody who wants to revert to using gold as currecny simply doesn’t understand how modern monetary systems work and why they are necessary, but then I don’t claim to be an economic expert. Unlike the OP The only reason paper money systems are “necessary” is to facilitate the centralization of power and allow governments to expand endlessly. That is the reason so many nations have them. It is the general desire of governments and politicians to control people and expand their power. For ambitious politicians and corporations who could benefit from such a system, there is a strong desire to remove the impediments to the centralization of power. Don’t mistake current economic order to “progress”. Let me ask this question: **If we want low public debt and a solvent economy over the course of decades (or longer) how on earth could a monetary and banking system like we have function in the long run?** If you learn about our banking system, you will find out that it is designed to be mathematically impossible to pay off the debt. More and more of our revenue is being burnt up by the _interest_ on the debt each year! The only way out is through defaulting on the debt, declaring bankruptcy and reforming the system. We could do that, or we could pursue the current course which is: purposely devaluing the money to pay off debt with cheaper money. Of course that will lead to destruction of the money through hyperinflation if followed through to its logical conclusion. We don’t have to have any of these problems. But until we reform the system we will be like the Titanic, heading towards the iceberg. Its better that we change course before we hit. A great documentary to watch is: The Money Masters [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936#](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936#) If you haven’t studied the history of the banking system in this country I think you will be shocked by some of what you will learn. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/262 "2010-08-21T21:42:22Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > If there had been the slightest temptation to slog through the OP parts 1-3 (admittedly, it was miniscule), it was destroyed when **jrodefeld** listed his trusted media and cited [rense.com](http://rense.com). > > [rense.com](http://rense.com) is a zoo of hilarious misinformation and paranoid conspiracy ramblings. Among the current examples are articles detailing “The Jews Who Wrote The Protocols Of Zion” (treating the Protocols as an actual blueprint for Christian destruction rather than the crude anti-Semitic forgery they were in reality) and a piece revealing how Western women are in a “death spiral, morals gone”. > > Citing [rense.com](http://rense.com) as an authority on anything is an automatic fail deserving of incredulous laughter, much like citing whale.to as an authority on medicine. > > It’s funny and sad to see a self-professed seeker after truth immersing himself only in the sources that will confirm his convictions, while firmly holding his fingers in his ears to avoid being tainted by voices that might instill doubts. This is a very poor attempt to obfuscate the issue by pulling out one link that you don’t agree with and pretending that that discredits everything else I wrote in pages of a carefully considered essay. This is a pathetic and transparent tactic. As for the links I posted, I certainly don’t believe everything on every site a listed. I also don’t ignore mainstream sources of news and information. However, places like [Rense.com](http://Rense.com) sometimes have links to news articles and pieces of information that are very good. It pays to look through websites such as that one to broaden your perspective a little. If you simply write it off by labeling it a “conspiracy” website, you don’t do any justice to your own education and world view. So, what about the other links and resources I linked to? Have you looked through [mises.org](http://mises.org)? Why don’t you actually read what I wrote, absorb the arguments made, and respond to that information? It is a pathetic attack of guilt by association to claim that I am answerable for everything posted on another persons website. Respond to what I am saying. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/263 "2010-08-21T21:45:38Z")
> [@Eutychus](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Looks like I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing paint thinner. > > Actually, sniffing paint thinner made the whole thing make much more sense! Another example of someone who is incapable of forming a cogent response to a well thought out, persuasively argued OP? Its easy to make snide remarks. It covers up your intellectual deficits and lack of reading compensation. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/264 "2010-08-21T21:50:49Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > > [@Jackmannii](#): > > > > It’s funny and sad to see a self-professed seeker after truth immersing himself only in the sources that will confirm his convictions, while firmly holding his fingers in his ears to avoid being tainted by voices that might instill doubts. > > Sometimes there’s only one place to go to find the truth you seek. > > I gather that in the US it’s often Fox. First of all, I watch and read all forms of media. Over a period of several years I gravitate towards those with a verifiable track record of accuracy and in depth reporting. I know much of the mainstream source, including Fox, are packed with propaganda and tools of social control. Our media will not do any in depth reporting on the issues that matter. So I have looked for alternative sources. Many websites do a good job. I read many books. Youtube can be an invaluable source for information. There are some good online radio shows I listen to. Where do you get your news? And, at some point, you should take the time to respond to my OP. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/265 "2010-08-21T21:55:04Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Attention, **jrodefeld** , would you _please_ respond to this post? I begin to suspect not. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/266 "2010-08-21T21:56:30Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Its not random. You are all doing everything possible not to actually try to understand what I wrote. My argument is incredibly strong, if you would actually take the time to read what I wrote. > > What is it about the libertarians that makes them so paranoid? Everyone is out to get me and if anyone would actually pay attention to what I say the world would be paradise! > > (as long as I could afford to pay the fire department when I accidentally kick over my meth lab) > > -Joe I’m not paranoid, at least when I’m not high. 😃 Why would you say that? You just don’t understand libertarian philosophy. Now, if more of you would actually engage on a substantial level instead of making smart ass remarks, this thread could actually be productive. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/267 "2010-08-21T21:59:09Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@Voyager](#): > > > > Does “Heck of a job, Brownie” ring a bell? Hiring people for the Justice Department from Liberty University? Staffing Baghdad based on loyalty to the Republican party and views on abortion? > > > > If they don’t actually want bad government, they sure govern as if they do. If you want to starve the beast, you try not to let the beast work effectively. > > Why are you bringing this partisan bullshit in here? I am not a Republican. I am talking about ideology. I am trying to bring up important issues about the debt, the monetary system and protection of civil liberties and you want to engage in partisan bickering. > The truth is both parties have given us bad government. You don’t get off that easy. The Repubs brought a disasterous government while proclaiming proudly their Libertarian principles. Bush’e economic advisers were happy to pronounce their Libertarian streaks. Greenspan was just one of many who wanted the hands off, no regulation business will do right attitude. After the mess they caused Libertarians are scraping for a way to disavow them. But you can not. They are yours and more Bush is what you promise. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/268 "2010-08-21T22:07:54Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > See, thats the problem. Mises’ magnum opus is called Human Action because he argues that human behavior is too complex and irrational to be understood using mathematical theories and centrally managed. In fact, Keynesians use complex mathematical models to cover up the fact that their ideas are so irrational that even a child could understand how ridiculous they are. A scientific gloss does not impress me. > > Do you apply the same standard to, say, physics? Much of advanced physics is highly irrational, and most children would say they are ridiculous. But there is data to back up the theories, and thus they are generally considered true. > > Theories that make no predictions and just throw up their hands in the face of problems are not particularly useful in making real-world decisions. Okay, why not explain to me that data behind Keynes belief that “deficits don’t matter” because “in the end, we are all dead”? Deficits DO matter. The Keynesian argument, if I could sum it up, is first create an artificial bubble, or boom and keep it going forever. Don’t allow the correction. Keep dumping in stimulus during any and all downturns to keep the party going. Even though the wealth created is illusory, the goal is to keep the illusion going. I would say a policy that has given us a thirteen trillion dollar deficit, the housing bubble, stagflation in the 70s, and the current crisis we are dealing with has pretty much been discredited by real life events. Not to mention their complete lack of ability to predict future economic events. You are completely wrong when you say that Austrian economists make no prediction. Mises correctly predicted the stock market crash of 1929 when virtually no one else did. Today Ron Paul, Peter Schiff and other Austrians correctly predicted the current crisis for about a decade while no one else did. How can you explain this? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/269 "2010-08-21T22:21:03Z")
Lots of people makes all kinds of economic predictions, from doom to fantastic upswings, on a continual basis. When something bad happens you can always point to a bunch of seemingly accurate predictions, while ignoring all the occasions on which the End of the World did _not_ occur. It’s like psychic predictions - by careful cherry-picking you can make them look hair-raisingly prescient. Just overlook all the embarassingly dumb picks that failed to materialize. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/270 "2010-08-21T22:23:28Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > I haven’t posted on here in a while > > Really? You’ve only been a member for 6 months. > > And if you had been on, you’d have realised that we don’t have much tolerance for turgid prose. There’s no way I’m wading through that lot. > > So please, let’s have your main points, and just the main points,with brief reasoning. You don’t have to post here if you don’t want to. I will certainly come back and create separate threads for brief topics of debate. But briefly, my main points are: 1. The Opposition to Obama goes way beyond the media characterization of the Tea Partiers. There is a chance for a third movement in 2012 who will not simply vote GOP. 2. The monetary system that finances big government and progressivism impoverishes people. The social welfare that people receive is crumbs in comparison. Just economically speaking, smaller government and an emphasis on honest money and no debt is far more compassionate. 3. We need to privatize our entitlement system. There is no other way to become fiscally solvent. We should keep our commitments to current recipients but transition away over a decade or so. 4. Most regulation needs to be eliminated. Most regulation protects big business and hurts small business. This is not the same as allowing corporations to get away with crimes. We can have a very vigilant watchdog government prosecuting fraud and crimes while having very few “regulations” on the larger economy, therefore preserving the truly free market. 5. The liberal distrust of the free market is both irrational and naive. Thats pretty much it. Although my OP was in depth, I think overall it was pretty on message. These five points should be easy to follow or respond to. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/271 "2010-08-21T22:35:15Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Its not random. You are all doing everything possible not to actually try to understand what I wrote. My argument is incredibly strong, if you would actually take the time to read what I wrote. > > We are the best judges of the strength of your argument. I saw no interesting facts and original and intriguing insights, only tired old right wing cliches and value assertions I do not share with you. I don’t agree that they are right wing. I don’t see things through those narrow lenses. Did you already know about the creation of the Federal Reserve on Jekyl Island? Did you know about the Cantillion effect of inflation and how our monetary system enriches the wealthy at the expense of the poor? I would think for a liberal such as yourself, you would care that the very big government you advocate is impoverishing people. Given your screen name, how do you feel that FDR’s New Deal policies lengthened the Depression? Did you know that FDR maneuvered and provoked Japan into an anticipated attack on Pearl Harbor to justify American entry into World War II? It is the truth: [http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pearl\_harbor.htm](http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pearl_harbor.htm) The man who caused a three to four year downturn to become a fifteen year catastrophe and lied to get us involved in the bloodiest war of the last century is your model president? How about Lyndon Johnson escalating the war in Vietnam? And similarly, how about the devaluation of the dollar and the growing income gap as the government grew over the decades? Your side typically derides libertarians for not caring about the poor and being cruel and insensitive. I am saying that I am a libertarian BECAUSE I care about the poor and middle class more than the rich. The system you advocate is impoverishing people. Then the government throws them some crumbs and we are supposed to be grateful? Respond to these points. You claim to care about the poor right? You want a more progressive and fair system in America, right? How can that be accomplished through inflationism and debt? Enlighten me. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/272 "2010-08-21T22:37:00Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > How can that be accomplished through inflationism and debt? Enlighten me. What inflation? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/273 "2010-08-21T22:52:34Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > We are the best judges of the strength of your argument. I saw no interesting facts and original and intriguing insights, only tired old right wing cliches and value assertions I do not share with you. > > Indeed. The arrogance is amazing. I personally think many of Friedman’s economic theories, for example, are incorrect. I wouldn’t characterize him as stupid though, and would certainly acknowledge him as smarter then myself. The OP takes minds such as Galbraith and Keynes, and rather than simply disagreeing with them, has to try to paint them as simpering fools. And I just don’t buy the OP is smarter than them. > > I also don’t buy the utter hogwash about 15% of the teabagger rally he was at being black. The lighting must have been really bad in the room, because otherwise I don’t see how that number squares with everyone else’s experiences. No, I don’t claim to be smarter than Keynes and Galbraith. I claim that Mises, Hayek, Hazlitt, and Rothbard are smarter. I know this because I have seen the predictions of Keynes fail repeatedly over the decades. Having studied history extensively, I recognize that Keynesian economics became in vogue because politicians and bankers had a very strong desire to interfere with the market and centrally plan the economy, for a variety of reasons. For those who want to control a government or an economy for their own personal gain, they will persist until they accomplish their goal. I believe that Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, Thomas Paine, and others who insisted that the money be denominated in gold and silver only and warned of bankers and “money changers” being the gravest threat to the economy were indeed smarter than Keynes. As to whether or not there are liberty rallies with a significant minority presence, why don’t you view these youtube videos: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/GizNwzKo3n8/maxresdefault.jpg "Reporters vs. Conservative Black Leaders at Press Conference 8 4 2010") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GizNwzKo3n8) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/P1CLPhz0DHM/maxresdefault.jpg "Tea Party Racism??") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1CLPhz0DHM) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/7YiJfgMySVM/maxresdefault.jpg "National Black Conservative Press Conference: Bob Parks") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YiJfgMySVM) ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/PcsnWLLdl70/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/PcsnWLLdl70?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque I have also attended some anti war demonstrations in California where there were a lot of minorities and liberals who are furious with Obama for his continuation of the wars overseas and his assaults of civil liberties. I agree with them. I think there are many more independents and minority groups who would gladly join or work together with the Tea Parties if they weren’t unfairly tainted as being racist in the media. Some are driven away before they give them a chance. Even so, with 16% unemployment among black Americans, believe me they are very angry as well. It really shouldn’t matter what race the protesters are. The ideas should be all that matters. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/274 "2010-08-21T22:57:40Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > Indeed. The arrogance is amazing. > > Heh. The “Pay Attention” in the thread title itself screams arrogance. Yeah, the tone of some of my posts could be interpreted as arrogant. I prefer to think of it as confidence in what I believe. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/275 "2010-08-21T23:03:51Z")
> [@leftfield6](#): > > If you are truly interested in anyone taking up your challenge to debate, take the advice of one of my speech professors. > > “If you want clear concise answers, ask clear concise questions” > > Really, what’s a better way to get a response? > > 1. Tell me what you think about A? > > 2. Tell me what you think about A, B, C, D, E, F…Z? And also tell me what you think about the Arabic alphabet, and just to make it challenging, here are some Chinese characters to analyze as well. > > By typing (or more likely cutting and pasting) your manifesto, you make it unlikely that anyone will want to even try to respond to the entire thing, thus you can sit back and smile smugly just because no one else is willing to dedicate the time to decipher your pile of words. > > I can only surmise that you really don’t want a real discussion, since you haven’t initiated the conversation in a way that could actually lead to a conversation. I would be glad to start a new thread soon that is more concise and focused on one or two points. I don’t think it is too complicated to read and understand. Although it is in depth, it can easily be summed up in only four or five points, which are all related. “big” government is related to the monetary system. Progressivism is related to distrust of the marketplace. Etc. It would be easy for me to respond to a thread like this. Let me just say this, if you want a “Great” debate, come here. If you want a debate that is easier to understand and requires less effort, visit another thread. By the way, there was no cutting and pasting. I don’t need to plagiarize because I know these subjects like the back of my hand. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/276 "2010-08-21T23:07:32Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > > [@acsenray](#): > > > > Heh. The “Pay Attention” in the thread title itself screams arrogance. > > Is it arrogance to assume that just because you think the OP is completely wrong that it’s only because you’re so blinded by your own ignorance that you don’t see the fundamental truth of his positions? > > It’s kind of funny, because we’ve got another libertarian here who responds to everything with his very own wall of text in an attempt to argue his points. Must be part of their handbook or something. > > Argumentum ad nauseum. > > -Joe I don’t care how many of you disagree with me. I could count on one hand the number of people who actually engaged in a substantial way with what I have posted. Isn’t there someone here who truly believes in the value of the welfare state and resists efforts to cut spending that will challenge my positions? Are there liberals and progressives that believe in cutting spending across the board? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/277 "2010-08-21T23:11:49Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > Early on, in your incoherent shambles of an OP, you identified yourself as an **intellectual**. In my experience anyone who identifies himself as an intellectual, isn’t one. By self identifying in that way, you probably lost any credibility you might have had. Why are you cluttering up my thread with this nonsense? Whether or not I consider myself an intellectual is irrelevant. You obviously don’t have to post here or participate, but if you are claiming that my OP is an “incoherent shamble”, it should be no hard task to poke holes in my arguments, right? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/278 "2010-08-21T23:27:05Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > …it should be no hard task to poke holes in my arguments, right? Right. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/279 "2010-08-21T23:41:27Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > A progressive society would evolve towards greater liberty, more freedom, more peace, more tolerance and greater equality of justice. > > Explain what mechanisms you and Ron Paul would change to acheve these ends, and how these mechanisms would contribute to these goals. > > Start with explaining to me how taking away my checking account and debit card and instead dumping a pile of metal coins in my lap will increase my economic freedom. Thats easy. All take them one by one: **More Peace:** I advocate a non-interventionist foreign policy. That means that we would avoid wars at all cost. The only justifiable war is a defensive war to repel an impending attack. We should not occupy other nations indefinitely. We should support free trade, travel, diplomacy and good will towards all. We should cut the military budget drastically. Shut down overseas bases and bring all our troops home. **More Freedom:** Restore Habeas Corpus. Follow the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Allow all consensual behavior to take place. Gambling, prostitution, drugs, and all other vices should be legal. People should be allowed to keep the money they earn. **More Tolerance:** Obviously not everyone is going to be tolerant under any system. But in a libertarian society, where nobody is allowed to take away the rights of anyone else, then people become less resentful and more accepting of other people. If we decide government has no business in marriage, for example, these hot button “culture war” issues would go away and people wouldn’t care. If we allow the notion that a certain state or community can set their own standards and another community can set different rules, then everyone should be happy. People are free to move to a state that is closest to their beliefs. Nobody will feel like another group is forcing their beliefs on them. This would encourage tolerance and goodwill among our citizens. **Equal Justice:** This is easy. Corporate criminals should be tried under the same conditions as a poor person. No special favors or special treatment for the white collar criminals. Government should abide by the same rules they make us follow. Nobody is making you use gold coins. This demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of economics. We want gold backed currency, so that the money maintains its value. Or better yet, competing currencies so the Federal Reserve would have some competition. We want to reduce regulations so you could easily start a business, for example. > [@](#): > > If he is he’s taking forever. Of course, the posts of mine that he’s ignoring are completely irrefutable to him, on account of the fact that they’re based on good old-fashioned solid _reason_, not religious faith like his. I don’t think I missed your posts. But, humor me, what brilliant and devastating critique of my OP did I miss? I will be glad to respond to any posts of substance. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/280 "2010-08-21T23:46:07Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > We are the best judges of the strength of your argument. I saw no interesting facts and original and intriguing insights, only tired old right wing cliches and value assertions I do not share with you. > > I don’t agree that they are right wing. I don’t see things through those narrow lenses. Did you already know about the creation of the Federal Reserve on Jekyl Island? Did you know about the Cantillion effect of inflation and how our monetary system enriches the wealthy at the expense of the poor? I would think for a liberal such as yourself, you would care that the very big government you advocate is impoverishing people. Given your screen name, how do you feel that FDR’s New Deal policies lengthened the Depression? Did you know that FDR maneuvered and provoked Japan into an anticipated attack on Pearl Harbor to justify American entry into World War II? It is the truth: > > [http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pearl\_harbor.htm](http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pearl_harbor.htm) > > The man who caused a three to four year downturn to become a fifteen year catastrophe and lied to get us involved in the bloodiest war of the last century is your model president? How about Lyndon Johnson escalating the war in Vietnam? And similarly, how about the devaluation of the dollar and the growing income gap as the government grew over the decades? > > Your side typically derides libertarians for not caring about the poor and being cruel and insensitive. I am saying that I am a libertarian BECAUSE I care about the poor and middle class more than the rich. The system you advocate is impoverishing people. Then the government throws them some crumbs and we are supposed to be grateful? > > Respond to these points. You claim to care about the poor right? You want a more progressive and fair system in America, right? How can that be accomplished through inflationism and debt? Enlighten me. You’re kidding, right? No, I suspect you are not. I’ve been reading along, frankly not too impressed with your arrogance and your arguments, but enjoying the discussion. But at this post you’ve jumped completely off the rails, left the roadway, skidded down the ditch, rolled over, fallen off the cliff, crashed onto the rocks, and… Well. FDR basically turned a “market correction” into the greatest and most protracted depression (jury is still out on the present one) of all time? And caused the war in the Pacific? All to further someone’s financial situation. “It is the truth”. Holy cow. If that’s Libertarian ::truth::, well, I don’t think I’m gonna bother reading your screeds any longer. Sheesh. Talk about monumental fail. Tag-- you’re it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=15)