# This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784 "2010-08-19T20:08:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/341 "2010-08-27T04:17:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > We need to change the system till people like Ron Paul and Ralph Nader can win the elections. Honest people. Not cronies or corporate sellouts. > > Isn’t that a chicken-and-egg problem? Won’t the same flaws in the system that prevent Paul and Nader from being elected also prevent the system from being changed by the democratic process? The first thing would be to educate the electorate to overcome the media bias and elect someone with character like those two men. Then it would send a massive signal to the political bodies that they need to adopt policies similar to the demands of their constituents. I do believe the process can work if people are focused enough and keep the pressure on the government. I would still be a struggle to truly reform the system if a Nader or Paul were in the Oval Office. But lets try that before we resort to open revolution, all right? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/342 "2010-08-27T04:20:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > What does that prove? I went to a different rally in a different state and my experience is different. > > When and where did this integrated rally happen? California, Los Angeles area. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/343 "2010-08-27T04:23:07Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > By the way, does anyone looking at Canada’s debt stunned by how small it is compared to the United States? Canada has a national debt which is the same as the price of a three bedroom, two bathroom home in California? Don’t ever compare this kind of country to one with a thirteen trillion three hundred billion dollar national debt and claim they are similar. Does anyone else looking at these numbers admit that they are so truly without comprehension as to fail to understand that the figures are given in millions? (Hint: “2008-09 $463,710” would read “2008-09 $463,710,000,000” if printed in full. Not even in California would that be the price of even a very large house. I understand that the full figure was not presented, but I would have expected a person fully experienced and well-read in economics to have a basic grasp of the size of Canada’s debt.) ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/344 "2010-08-27T04:25:31Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > You really don’t know anything about libertarians and especially Austrian economists if you think that. Greenspan was most responsible for the creation of this crisis. That is why I want to get rid of the Federal Reserve system so Fed chairmen, in a secretive manner, can’t destroy the economy. > > Watch this video of Ron Paul questioning Alan Greenspan in 2000: > > > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2AqGQirW1Y](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2AqGQirW1Y) > > Perhaps you are disowning your own when they fail. Greenspan is the ultimate Libertarian sitting at th right hand of Rand . He and the repubs that blew up the economy were proud to proclaim their Libertarianism. You guys were proud of them until the silliness of their convictions blew up the worlds economy. Now you will disown them. .What a surprise. This is such bullshit. A fundamental tenet of Austrian economics is that the Federal Reserve shouldn’t exist. So, you think somehow that they would support or be a fan of a Fed chairman? Greenspan is not and was not a libertarian. PERIOD. Anyone who says differently is a liar. By the way, what do you mean “you guys”. I am not a Republican. I don’t support supply side economics. I though Reagan was terrible. Have you been reading this thread? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/345 "2010-08-27T04:30:13Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Greenspan Shrugged | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-madrak/greenspan-shrugged_b_64549.html) Greenspan describes himself as a lifelong Libertarian and was great friends with Rand. When you talk about Libertarianism, you speak of an illogical and stupid philosophy that can never work. It is childish and simplistic. When it finally got power, it showed what it was. This is the truth. Alan Greenspan as a youth believed in the Gold Standard and was a fan of Ayn Rand. He changed his views before he became a Fed chairman. Even accepting that position would be to, by default, abandon all your libertarian and Austrian learnings. You know who was a fan of Goldwater when she was young? Hilary Clinton. People change. Find me one Austrian economist or libertarian who has anything good to say about Greenspan or his policies. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/346 "2010-08-27T04:38:08Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > When and where did this integrated rally happen? > > California, Los Angeles area. When and where did this integrated rally happen? What is the date and location? Where can I find information about it? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/347 "2010-08-27T04:51:23Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Again, who gives a fuck? If Obama had any balls he would say “The Rit of Habeas Corpus is not negotiable” and tell the Republicans to eat a dick. Seriously, the idea that we can detain people indefinitely without trial is abominable. > > We probably disagree on a lot of things, but not this. It IS abominable and inexcusable. You don’t protect the country by destroying its most basic underpinnings. Right on. I just wished more Democrats like yourself would hold Obama accountable for these decisions. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/348 "2010-08-27T04:51:37Z")
**jrodefeld** , do not post entire web pages in violation of copyright. From the SDMB Registration:[You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by the operator of the SDMB, except as permitted by the “fair use” provisions of the U.S. copyright laws (in general this means brief excerpts only).](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=423183) Link to the page and post a few relevant extracted statements. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/349 "2010-08-27T04:52:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > California, Los Angeles area. > > When and where did this integrated rally happen? What is the date and location? Where can I find information about it? Clearly, jrodefeld lacks either the ability or the desire to respond to this question. Just drop it. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/350 "2010-08-27T05:05:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Put up or shut up. Show me how much more you know than I do. > > To whom are you addressing this? As stated, **bdgr** stopped reading. I bet he’s done a lot of that in his life. “Stopping reading” is probably his default reaction to any material that involves thinking and learning. But I’ll leave that comment there in case he comes back. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/351 "2010-08-27T05:06:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > When and where did this integrated rally happen? What is the date and location? Where can I find information about it? > > Clearly, jrodefeld lacks either the ability or the desire to respond to this question. > Just drop it. > > [/Modding] Assuming he will not bring it up again, I’ll do just that. ---
**Author:** ![Clark\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Clark\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clark_K)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/352 "2010-08-27T05:15:18Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > I understand Austrian School economics. I have studied the philosophy and predictions of: > > Carl Menger > Ludwig von Mises > Friedrich Hayek > Murray Rothbard > Hans-Hermann Hoppe > Friedrich von Wieser > Jim Rogers > Hans Sennholz > Ron Paul > Peter Schiff > I have witnessed the correct predictions of the Austrian School with my own eyes. I understand the monetary system and the way the Federal Reserve System benefits private bankers and is an attack on freedom and fiscal well being for our country. Bravo, JRod. Thank the good Lord that I’m not the only one paying attention to the great minds of history. I myself understand Australian Schoolhouse Rock economics. I have studied the philosophy and predictions of: Carl Barks Camper van Beethoven Salma Hayek Murray the K Hoppy the Marvel Bunny Dita von Teese Jimmie Rodgers Hans Across America Les Paul Peter North I have seen the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked. I understand the Monopoly monetary system and the way the Federal Bureau of Investigation benefits private parts and is an attack on fiefdoms and physical well-digging for our Father Who Art in Heaven. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/353 "2010-08-27T05:21:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Which they of course wouldn’t. Why should they ? They don’t know anybody in Kentucky, or the status of education in southern Maine, and don’t give a toss about anything outside of their own neighbourhood and job sector really, and a small part of it at that. As for helping the poor and healing the sick, fuck that noise - they din’t earn what I gots cuz I made myself on my own and don’t owe nuthing to nobody ! > > Basically, you’re advocating a return to the statu quo circa 1870. Those weren’t pleasant times, least not for the working class. Many people give to charity already. If people had more money they would give more. A lot of people would be greedy and not do anything. But you just need a small number of people running private charities and organizing to solve social problems. As I’ve said elsewhere the late 19th century was a lot better than you think it was. After the creation of the Federal Reserve there was a massive effort to rewrite history to make “going back” or undoing government intervention seem outrageous. There were problems then, just like there are problems now. There was a lot of creation of wealth and people were able to escape poverty at record rates unprecedented in history. Don’t believe everything your high school history text book says. > [@](#): > > Yes, they should. But they don’t. Hell, I don’t either. Places to see, people to go, you know how it is. > > Which is why I have no problem with the setting up of organizations which do it for me, and handing them my money so that they can do it efficiently. I could send it to a private charity, I suppose - but then there’s no guarantee anyone but the top would see a cent (as in the case of the French Arc scandal, a major cancer research fundation which was found out to be actually funding BMWs and junkets for the president), whereas I can vote\* the people who squander my charity money out of government. > > Or the people who think government shouldn’t give a cent to the poor & unemployed, come to that. > You don’t like the way the government handles your money ? Change the government - it’s what democracy’s for. You want a smaller government ? Vote for that, or run for that yourself. Just do it, as they say. > > But beyond that, yes, you do owe a lot to society. > Society built the road you drive on. Society built the school you went to, and the hospital you got your vaccinations at. Society protects you from the kind of people who wouldn’t think twice about punching you in the kidneys until you give them all you’ve got, then rape your mum for good measure. Society also protects you from people of the same kind who live in other countries, and would like to shoot you in the face until they live in your house. Society protects you from employers who would fire you if you don’t suck their dick or work 86 hours per day for 12 cents and a bowl of moldy rice - which, as history proves, is all of them when employment isn’t moderated by labour laws. Same deal with your landlord. Society ensures there’s no lead in your baby’s food, and the chemical plant upstream doesn’t dump radioactive waste in your garden. Society makes sure you don’t starve and freeze to death when life takes a steaming dump on your head and expects you to say thanks for the hat. > > _pant, pant_ > > We did and do all this for you every day of your life, you special snowflake you. Now pay up and fucking like it. > > - theoretically, since I don’t vote. But it’s the principle that counts See, thats just you being lazy. This is a common attitude. I don’t have to do anything because the government will do it for me. The government doesn’t do anything efficiently. You are much better off giving your money to a private charity. Or better yet, volunteering your time to help others. Except you really don’t have a choice. You have to give your money to the government. A dramatic amount is eaten up in meaningless bureaucracy and a small amount may get to people who need it. The biggest reason to oppose government welfare is that the politicians don’t want people to get off welfare. They want them to be dependent so they will vote Democrat. It is cheap and sleazy but they do it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/354 "2010-08-27T05:32:08Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > I hope you are being sarcastic here. > > I could not be more serious. The Constitution is founded on the collection of taxes, to be spent according to the will of the voters as expressed through their elected representatives. I would like to hear how you propose to undo that without the complete and utter overthrow of the Constitution and our representative form of government. > > There has never been a more economically stable system than Tyranny by the Majority. To that end, whatever coercion is necessary to collect a progressive tax from the wealthy is justified. > > Let me say it again: **Coercion is justified. Because it works.** > > In compensation, they still get to live vastly more extravagant, self-indulgent lives than 98% of the people in the country. It ain’t perfect, but it is still way ahead of whatever is in second place. > > No, in America you do not have any right to keep every damn dollar you earn. It says so in the Constitution, as the founders intended. > > Keep your hands off our Constitution. Why would you tax the wealthy, other than jealousy? Yes, our founders envisioned very minimal taxation of the people. A far cry from what we have now. They NEVER could have imagined an income tax. And no, the revenue was not intended to be spent on “whatever the voters want”, and they expressly warned against tyranny by the majority. The minimal taxation that the founders set up was for the operation of the expressly delegated functions spelled out in the Constitution. You clearly haven’t read the writings of the founders. If you think the founders advocated a massive social welfare system and redistribution scheme with the level of taxation we have now, you are certifiably insane. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/355 "2010-08-27T05:36:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > …Get this in your head GOVERNMENT IS NOT SOCIETY!.. > > Sure it is, if you’re doing it right. Democracy, government of by and for the people. Society comprised entirely of people. Hence, in a fully realized democracy, the society and the government are precisely the same. > > And don’t shout when you’re wrong. First of all, we have a Republic, not a democracy. Government usually does not speak for the majority of us, but rather the narrow interests of a lobbying group. That is my problem. Society is all of us, individually. If I want to give back to society I volunteer and help my neighbor. I don’t give my money to the government. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/356 "2010-08-27T05:42:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, they aren’t, they won’t and they can’t. We have millennia of history demonstrating this. Government intervened because the private sector wasn’t doing the job. It never has, and there’s no reason to think it’ll suddenly start now. Nor are Americans anywhere near as generous as you are trying to claim; we are actually quite low on the generosity scale. We give a lot in absolute dollars because we are wealthy; but compared to how many assets we have we are less charitable than most other industrialize nations. No, government intervened because of ambitious politicians with grandiose ideas about their ability to solve problems. You seem to think the private sector can’t do anything right. Like I said earlier, if we had more wealth created in this country, there would be less poor. If the people can’t voluntarily solve these problems then there is no hope. The government cannot and will not solve these problems. As I have stated government policies have created more poor and made it harder to escape poverty. The policies have had the opposite of the intended effect. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/357 "2010-08-27T05:52:08Z")
I’m not sure how much I want to participate in this thread, but I feel a need to point out a few things. First, there is no intrinsic validity in talking about how the dollar is doing vis-a-vis gold in the present monetary system. This only works if we assume gold is the standard. You would like it to be, but at present it isn’t. Rather, the value of gold in fiat dollars is essentially speculative, i.e., a wager about its value in fiat dollars at some future point. Second, I should like to expand my earlier comment about wealth being the stuff (as opposed to the monetary supply) to point out that a lot of wealth is intangible, e.g., know how, patents and operating concern value. For example, computer companies, software producers, Hollywood studios and investment banks have value because they produce something for which people are willing to pay. The bricks-and-mortar value of these enterprises is only a small fraction of their worth. Third, the quibbling about the CPI as a measure of price inflation pretty much misses the point. No one says we can add or average the prices of milk and butter. What mainstream economists say is that we can construct a basket of goods and services, measure their aggregate price at T1 and compare that to their aggreate price at T2. The difference expressed as an index is price inflaction (or deflation). Surely you know this is how it’s done. BTW, whether price inflation or inflation of the monetary supply is the “true” definition is an argument, not a fact. Fourth, you overlook many factors which complicate the assessment of changes in healthcare, education and jobs. For examble, healthcare is complicated by the fact that we have more older people than in prior generations and better (albeit more expensive) treatments. Going off the gold standard had nothing to do with this problem. Fifth, speaking of the gold standard, how would we go about your fantasy of returning to the same? Presumably the Treasury would have to acquire a shitload of gold. With what would we buy it? What exchange rate do you contemplate? Do we need full backing or just a reserve? Hint: We didn’t go off gold for no reason. Sixth, almost all the licensing, regulatory and security measures of which you complain have almost nothing to do with economics. We have licensing because we want to be sure people are competent for their trade and can pay claims for any injuries they cause. We have regulations to prevent things like food poisoning and thalidomide. We have security measures because we’re afraid of a repetition of 9/11. People can (and do) debate where the lines should be drawn, but “let the chips fall there they may” isn’t very popular. Seventh, private charity as a substitute for public redistribution of wealth is an illusion. Yes, some wealthy folks will so so, but to say they can isn’t the same as saying they will. In fact, but for the “confiscatory” estate tax rates prevailing until the Dubya cuts, we would have seen little of ths. Stepping back, ISTM, the good argument you have is that, as a twenty-something, you’re sick-and-tired of current politics balancing the books on your back and those of your peers. With this, I agree. So, my advice would be to focus here and to let the other stuff go. What you do, of course, is up t you. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/358 "2010-08-27T05:53:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > If we had sound money and no Federal Reserve we wouldn’t have recessions and depressions at all. > > Is that the way it was in the 1800’s, when we were on the gold standard, with no Fed? I forget, somebody look it up… > > [ul] > [li][Panic of 1819](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1819)[/li][li][Panic of 1837](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1837)[/li][li][Panic of 1857](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1857)[/li][li][Panic of 1873](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1873)[/li][li][Panic of 1884](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1884)[/li][li][Panic of 1890](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1890)[/li][li][Panic of 1893](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1893)[/li][li][Panic of 1896](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1896)[/li][/ul] Okay one by one, The panic of 1819 and 1837 was caused be the creation of the first and second banks of the United States, precursors to the Federal Reserve. Subsequently they were eliminated. We were not on a perfect gold standard or free market system during the 19th century. There are many other issues, like war, which can cause a panic. The key factor is to link the boom to credit expansion, to show that the same contributing factor is always present. The bust is less important, since the important thing is identifying what causes these unsustainable booms. Then you essentially wind up with a theoretical case: knowing what causes the boom, knowing what the market is trying to do during the bust, and knowing further than government interference can only impair rather than enhance that process. Therefore government intervention would not have made the bust any less painful (except at the cost of holding the recession off for a few years, when it will be worse). The real lesson is: don’t start credit-induced booms in the first place. We need savings-induced growth. Therefore, in the absence of creating credit induced booms, the inevitable downturn is impossible. That is the point. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/359 "2010-08-27T06:06:28Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > No, they aren’t, they won’t and they can’t. We have millennia of history demonstrating this. Government intervened because the private sector wasn’t doing the job. It never has, and there’s no reason to think it’ll suddenly start now. Nor are Americans anywhere near as generous as you are trying to claim; we are actually quite low on the generosity scale. We give a lot in absolute dollars because we are wealthy; but compared to how many assets we have we are less charitable than most other industrialize nations. > > No, government intervened because of ambitious politicians with grandiose ideas about their ability to solve problems. You seem to think the private sector can’t do anything right. Like I said earlier, if we had more wealth created in this country, there would be less poor. > > If the people can’t voluntarily solve these problems then there is no hope. The government cannot and will not solve these problems. As I have stated government policies have created more poor and made it harder to escape poverty. The policies have had the opposite of the intended effect. Pure nonsense. Private citizens and non-government organizations had thousands of years to solve those problems, and failed - or made them worse. Government has had far more success. Nor does creating more wealth in a country necessarily reduce the number of poor, since can just as easily all simply go to make the wealthy wealthier. Nor did I say or even imply that “the private sector can’t do anything right”. I simply think that the government is better at some things; the private sector is better at others. The idea that one has to be for or against the government or the private sector as a blanket policy is your ideological bugaboo, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/360 "2010-08-27T06:07:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe the founders trusted the people to know what kind of government they wanted, and what kind of tax they thought was just. That is why they created a representative form of government, with the ability to amend the Constitution as the world changes. The Constitution is not a suicide pact. You are wrong. The founders did not trust the people at all. Thats why they abhorred direct democracy. \*\* “Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself.”\*\* John Adams **“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!”** Benjamin Franklin \*\*“It had been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience had proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.” \*\* Alexander Hamilton June 21, 1788 > [@](#): > > Benjamin Franklin, Letter to Robert Morris, 1783 That is an interesting quote, however it is important to understand that the founders meanings for certain words and terms were quite different from what we know them to be today. Some did believe in larger government (though not as large as we have today). The argument was small government vs extremely small government. Here are a few quotes from the founders you should consider: \*"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."\* -Thomas Jefferson _“If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare… The powers of Congress would subvert the very foundation, the very nature of the limited government established by the people of America.”_ -Alexander Hamilton _“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”_ -John Adams \*“As a man is said to have a right to his property, he may be equally said to have a property in his rights. Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions.” “If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” “It is sufficiently obvious, that persons and property are the two great subjects on which Governments are to act; and that the rights of persons, and the rights of property, are the objects, for the protection of which Government was instituted. These rights cannot well be separated.” “There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.”\* -James Madison There can be no doubt upon really listening to the words of the founders that they would side with me on most issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=19)