# This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784 "2010-08-19T20:08:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/421 "2010-08-27T21:47:42Z")
> [@blanx](#): > > What evidence do you have that the US is currently experiencing, or will experience hyperinflation? From what I can see from your arguments, it boils down to “Bad things coming: beware the Weimar Republic!” > > When? Why? > > Also, have you addressed the posts in #260 yet? Yes I have. Look it up, you will find it. I cannot predict when hyperinflation will come. One compelling argument (of many) is below: **How Hyperinflation Will Happen:** [third complete text of copyrighted material deleted] Read the rest here: [Latest US Economy Analysis & Macro Analysis Articles | Seeking Alpha](http://seekingalpha.com/article/221974-how-hyperinflation-will-happen) ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/422 "2010-08-27T21:50:37Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > As to whether or not there are liberty rallies with a significant minority presence, why don’t you view these youtube videos: > > > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GizNwzKo3n8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GizNwzKo3n8) > > > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1CLPhz0DHM&feature=player\_embedded](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1CLPhz0DHM&feature=player_embedded) > > > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YiJfgMySVM](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YiJfgMySVM) > > > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcsnWLLdl70](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcsnWLLdl70) > > I have also attended some anti war demonstrations in California where there were a lot of minorities and liberals who are furious with Obama for his continuation of the wars overseas and his assaults of civil liberties. I agree with them. I think there are many more independents and minority groups who would gladly join or work together with the Tea Parties if they weren’t unfairly tainted as being racist in the media. Some are driven away before they give them a chance. Even so, with 16% unemployment among black Americans, believe me they are very angry as well. > > It really shouldn’t matter what race the protesters are. The ideas should be all that matters. > > Two of the linked video’s are news conferences and don’t show the makeup of minority citizens at all. > > The other two show interviews with a few black members, however, the entire background audience is white. > > Just in case you didn’t do the math, 15% is 1 out of every 7 people. Who gives a shit about this issue? I didn’t come here to defend the Tea Party. I am not a member. I make a small remark that, in my experience the protests I have seen were much more diverse than what is being reported. That is all. Why continue to bring up this meaningless bullshit? If the Tea Party was 40% black, would that change your views of the policy suggestions? If it would, you are incredibly shallow and superficial. If not, then the point is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/423 "2010-08-27T21:52:22Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > > Is that the way it was in the 1800’s, when we were on the gold standard, with no Fed? I forget, somebody look it up… > > > > [ul] > > [li][Panic of 1819](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1819)[/li][li][Panic of 1837](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1837)[/li][li][Panic of 1857](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1857)[/li][li][Panic of 1873](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1873)[/li][li][Panic of 1884](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1884)[/li][li][Panic of 1890](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1890)[/li][li][Panic of 1893](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1893)[/li][li][Panic of 1896](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1896)[/li][/ul] > > Okay one by one, > > The panic of 1819 and 1837 was caused be the creation of the first and second banks of the United States, precursors to the Federal Reserve. Subsequently they were eliminated. And then you hand wave the rest of them away. The free markets and gold standard of the 1800’s were an economic disaster which you have utterly failed to address. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/424 "2010-08-27T21:58:56Z")
> [@Kiber](#): > > I’m sure I’ll regret jumping in - but what the hell. In reference to the crash of 1929, your wrote this in your op: > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Following the crisis our government did everything to prevent a correction. One of the worst things it did was to confiscate the peoples gold, thereby robbing them of their last remaining true wealth. **Obviously the policies FDR pursued failed because the Depression dragged on and on. Even a second World War failed to lift us out of the crisis.** We didn’t experience complete recovery until the late 40’s. At that point the spending went down two thirds and taxes went down one third. Kinda ironic that the one thing that we’re never supposed to do in a recession or depression (according to the Keynesians) was the one thing the facilitated a true recovery. Yet, the lasting harm from this period was that we instituted bad economic theories that have persisted despite all logic and reason. > > (Bolding mine to highlight key point. Snipping mine to keep peoples heads from exploding) > > You state that the policies of FDR caused the Depression to drag on and on. But I’m not sure the facts agree with you. In fact, I’m pretty sure that the lessions of the Great Depression don’t support your argument the way you think they do. > > Lets go back and look at what happened. Roughly - Market crashes in 1929. Response by Hoover includes cutting spending and trying to balance the budget (something you seem to support). Result - the economy worsens. > > 4 years later - FDR is elected and pushes through huge increases in government spending as part of the new deal. Recovery begins in the spring of 1933. > > After 4 years of modest growth, conservatives in Congress convince FDR to trim spending and balance the budget. In response - the economy tanks and a new recession begins. Growth doesn’t return until large increases in government spending occur, primarily associated with re-armament. > > Note - the above is an oversimplification of actual events. But the bottom line is - there were 2 different responses to the Depression. The response by fiscal conservatives from 1929-1933, and again in 1937, was to cut spending. and the result was a shrinking economy - both times. In contrast, increased government spending occured from 1933-1937, and from 1939-WWII. And the result was growth - both times. This [figure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_depression.svg) gives a nice graphical representation. > > In short - you seem to be arguing that the lessons of the great depression are that government response to crises should be to cut spending and balance the budget. However, the actual data from the great depression pretty clearly shows exactly the opposite. You have learned a made up fairy tale version of history as it relates to the Great Depression. Hoover did everything that Roosevelt did. He was just as much of an interventionist. Read this: > **[Mises Daily | Mises Institute](https://mises.org/mises-daily)** Now here is a fascinating study from UCLA about the folly of FDR’s New Deal policies: > [@](#): > > Two UCLA economists say they have figured out why the Great Depression dragged on for almost 15 years, and they blame a suspect previously thought to be beyond reproach: President Franklin D. Roosevelt. > > After scrutinizing Roosevelt’s record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years. > > “Why the Great Depression lasted so long has always been a great mystery, and because we never really knew the reason, we have always worried whether we would have another 10- to 15-year economic slump,” said Ohanian, vice chair of UCLA’s Department of Economics. “We found that a relapse isn’t likely unless lawmakers gum up a recovery with ill-conceived stimulus policies.” > > In an article in the August issue of the Journal of Political Economy, Ohanian and Cole blame specific anti-competition and pro-labor measures that Roosevelt promoted and signed into law June 16, 1933. > > “President Roosevelt believed that excessive competition was responsible for the Depression by reducing prices and wages, and by extension reducing employment and demand for goods and services,” said Cole, also a UCLA professor of economics. “So he came up with a recovery package that would be unimaginable today, allowing businesses in every industry to collude without the threat of antitrust prosecution and workers to demand salaries about 25 percent above where they ought to have been, given market forces. The economy was poised for a beautiful recovery, but that recovery was stalled by these misguided policies.” > > Using data collected in 1929 by the Conference Board and the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Cole and Ohanian were able to establish average wages and prices across a range of industries just prior to the Depression. By adjusting for annual increases in productivity, they were able to use the 1929 benchmark to figure out what prices and wages would have been during every year of the Depression had Roosevelt’s policies not gone into effect. They then compared those figures with actual prices and wages as reflected in the Conference Board data. > > In the three years following the implementation of Roosevelt’s policies, wages in 11 key industries averaged 25 percent higher than they otherwise would have done, the economists calculate. But unemployment was also 25 percent higher than it should have been, given gains in productivity. > > Meanwhile, prices across 19 industries averaged 23 percent above where they should have been, given the state of the economy. With goods and services that much harder for consumers to afford, demand stalled and the gross national product floundered at 27 percent below where it otherwise might have been. > > “High wages and high prices in an economic slump run contrary to everything we know about market forces in economic downturns,” Ohanian said. “As we’ve seen in the past several years, salaries and prices fall when unemployment is high. By artificially inflating both, the New Deal policies short-circuited the market’s self-correcting forces.” > > The policies were contained in the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA), which exempted industries from antitrust prosecution if they agreed to enter into collective bargaining agreements that significantly raised wages. Because protection from antitrust prosecution all but ensured higher prices for goods and services, a wide range of industries took the bait, Cole and Ohanian found. By 1934 more than 500 industries, which accounted for nearly 80 percent of private, non-agricultural employment, had entered into the collective bargaining agreements called for under NIRA. > > Cole and Ohanian calculate that NIRA and its aftermath account for 60 percent of the weak recovery. Without the policies, they contend that the Depression would have ended in 1936 instead of the year when they believe the slump actually ended: 1943. > > Roosevelt’s role in lifting the nation out of the Great Depression has been so revered that Time magazine readers cited it in 1999 when naming him the 20th century’s second-most influential figure. > > “This is exciting and valuable research,” said Robert E. Lucas Jr., the 1995 Nobel Laureate in economics, and the John Dewey Distinguished Service Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago. “The prevention and cure of depressions is a central mission of macroeconomics, and if we can’t understand what happened in the 1930s, how can we be sure it won’t happen again?” > > NIRA’s role in prolonging the Depression has not been more closely scrutinized because the Supreme Court declared the act unconstitutional within two years of its passage. > > “Historians have assumed that the policies didn’t have an impact because they were too short-lived, but the proof is in the pudding,” Ohanian said. “We show that they really did artificially inflate wages and prices.” > > Even after being deemed unconstitutional, Roosevelt’s anti-competition policies persisted — albeit under a different guise, the scholars found. Ohanian and Cole painstakingly documented the extent to which the Roosevelt administration looked the other way as industries once protected by NIRA continued to engage in price-fixing practices for four more years. > > The number of antitrust cases brought by the Department of Justice fell from an average of 12.5 cases per year during the 1920s to an average of 6.5 cases per year from 1935 to 1938, the scholars found. Collusion had become so widespread that one Department of Interior official complained of receiving identical bids from a protected industry (steel) on 257 different occasions between mid-1935 and mid-1936. The bids were not only identical but also 50 percent higher than foreign steel prices. Without competition, wholesale prices remained inflated, averaging 14 percent higher than they would have been without the troublesome practices, the UCLA economists calculate. > > NIRA’s labor provisions, meanwhile, were strengthened in the National Relations Act, signed into law in 1935. As union membership doubled, so did labor’s bargaining power, rising from 14 million strike days in 1936 to about 28 million in 1937. By 1939 wages in protected industries remained 24 percent to 33 percent above where they should have been, based on 1929 figures, Cole and Ohanian calculate. Unemployment persisted. By 1939 the U.S. unemployment rate was 17.2 percent, down somewhat from its 1933 peak of 24.9 percent but still remarkably high. By comparison, in May 2003, the unemployment rate of 6.1 percent was the highest in nine years. > > Recovery came only after the Department of Justice dramatically stepped enforcement of antitrust cases nearly four-fold and organized labor suffered a string of setbacks, the economists found. > > “The fact that the Depression dragged on for years convinced generations of economists and policy-makers that capitalism could not be trusted to recover from depressions and that significant government intervention was required to achieve good outcomes,” Cole said. “Ironically, our work shows that the recovery would have been very rapid had the government not intervened.” > > -UCLA- There you go. Read the following Austrian School perspectives on this matter: > **[Mises Institute](https://mises.org/)** > > With the help of our extraordinary supporters, the Mises Institute is the world's leading supporter of the ideas of liberty and the Austrian School of > **[The Great Depression | Mises Institute](https://mises.org/library/book/great-depression?d7_alias_migrate=1)** > > In 1934, when Lionel Robbins wrote The Great Depression, he was a committed advocate of the Austrian School of economics. This would later change, but in this This is a common misconception about The Great Depression that is taught to people in schools today. It must be refuted based on the facts. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/425 "2010-08-27T22:06:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > You don’t get off that easy. The Repubs brought a disasterous government while proclaiming proudly their Libertarian principles. Bush’e economic advisers were happy to pronounce their Libertarian streaks. Greenspan was just one of many who wanted the hands off, no regulation business will do right attitude. > > After the mess they caused Libertarians are scraping for a way to disavow them. But you can not. They are yours and more Bush is what you promise. > > The amusing thing is that I was responding to a post by **xtisme** , not to him. XT claimed that conservatives couldn’t possibly want bad government. > > It is a matter of faith to right wingers - both conservative and libertarian - that the disaster that happened on their watch couldn’t possibly be their fault. Ron Paul claiming it was all the result of loose money just shows what a fool Ron Paul is. They are still claiming that the cause of the crash is the encouragement of home ownership, as if this forced mortgage lenders (especially ones not even covered by the programs) to offer loans without documentation, and that this forced the rating agencies to slap AAA ratings on them. > > No wonder Greenspan is now hated - he actually admitted the philosophy failed, and these people would rather pluck their eyes out than face reality. Are you fucking retarded or something? Only a fool would claim that Greenspan, excepting his youth, was anywhere close to a libertarian or Austrian School follower. The Austrian School is against the existence of a Federal Reserve, yet you think a Fed chairman could be a follower? The purpose of the Fed is to intervene in the marketplace, artificially setting interest rates. Ron Paul, by the way, opposed Bernanke from the very beginning. He oppose Ronald Reagan and called him a traitor and a complete failure. And he certainly didn’t support Bush I, Clinton or Bush II. You really need to get your facts straight. The Austrian School advocates and true libertarians have opposed all economic policies of our government for decades. They have never had any allegiance to the Republican Party. I know its comforting for you to narrow anything down to a partisan war, but that is simplistic and doesn’t apply to the principled advocates of economic liberty. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/426 "2010-08-27T22:11:55Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Yes I have. Look it up, you will find it. I cannot predict when hyperinflation will come. > > One compelling argument (of many) is below: > > **How Hyperinflation Will Happen:** \ Surely 3,185 words spread over four and a half single spaced pages don’t exceed “fair use” standards. To say nothing about Post 424. Sigh. TLDR. Again. I’m just sayin’… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/427 "2010-08-27T22:20:06Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > I’ve beaten the vaccination issue to death already. But will you concede that there is a dramatic difference between vaccinating against a deadly contagious disease and a minor illness that a person is highly unlikely to get in the first place? Vaccinating against the flu? Why would I do that? I don’t mind getting the flu and considering I am extremely healthy and work out every day it is highly unlikely that I will sick. In the interests of fighting ignorance, you are dead wrong about this. Some strains of flu (for instance the one responsible for the 1917 pandemic) use the body’s immune system against itself, and are more deadly to those with good immune systems versus those with weak ones. In fact it spread initially in the US in army bases full of healthy, young recruits. If you think being healthy gives you immunity from this kind of flu, and do not get vaccinated, you are putting your life at risk. My wife who is a biologist and medical writer wrote and sold a book on the flu, which didn’t get published because the avian flu stubbornly refused to become a major epidemic. BTW, that flu was called the Spanish flu because the countries engaged in The Great War suppressed information on the extent of the outbreak, fearing it would make them seem weak. When it spread to Spain, which was neutral, the news got out. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/428 "2010-08-27T22:27:18Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Thats easy. All take them one by one: > > > > **More Peace:** I advocate a non-interventionist foreign policy. That means that we would avoid wars at all cost. The only justifiable war is a defensive war to repel an impending attack. We should not occupy other nations indefinitely. We should support free trade, travel, diplomacy and good will towards all. We should cut the military budget drastically. Shut down overseas bases and bring all our troops home. > > > > **More Freedom:** Restore Habeas Corpus. Follow the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Allow all consensual behavior to take place. Gambling, prostitution, drugs, and all other vices should be legal. People should be allowed to keep the money they earn. > > > > **More Tolerance:** Obviously not everyone is going to be tolerant under any system. But in a libertarian society, where nobody is allowed to take away the rights of anyone else, then people become less resentful and more accepting of other people. If we decide government has no business in marriage, for example, these hot button “culture war” issues would go away and people wouldn’t care. If we allow the notion that a certain state or community can set their own standards and another community can set different rules, then everyone should be happy. People are free to move to a state that is closest to their beliefs. Nobody will feel like another group is forcing their beliefs on them. This would encourage tolerance and goodwill among our citizens. > > > > **Equal Justice:** This is easy. Corporate criminals should be tried under the same conditions as a poor person. No special favors or special treatment for the white collar criminals. Government should abide by the same rules they make us follow. > > > > Nobody is making you use gold coins. This demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of economics. We want gold backed currency, so that the money maintains its value. Or better yet, competing currencies so the Federal Reserve would have some competition. We want to reduce regulations so you could easily start a business, for example. > > Ah, okay; I freely admit that I got confused because your posts have been all over the frigging map, which is naturally a result of your Magnum Opus OP. I thought that you were implying that _Austrian/Libertarian economics_ were going to cause some improvement on these subjects. Which you apparently weren’t, since not a single one of your four answers here mentions a single thing about any economic policy whatsoever. > > Which kind of means the fact that I scoffed at the idea that economic solutions to these problems means that I _understand_ economics - at least well enough to know what it won’t fix. > > Also, gold isn’t as inflation-proof as you think. But putting that aside, I’d instead like to talk about this “better yet competing currencies” thing you keep talking about. Have you actually thought about what this entails? > > Competing currencies made of gold are by definition the same currency - unless you intended for the minted gold coins to be worth more than their materials value, in which case they’re just an expensive-per-pound fiat currency, like the old copper pennies were before they inflated past their metal weight and started getting melted down. So, presuming you’ve thought about it, you can’t want your competing currencies to be made of gold. > > Presumably that means that you want more _fiat_ currencies floating around. And guess what: your wish is granted. They’re called the peso. And the dinar. And the pound. And the mark. And the yen. These are _exactly_ what you think is _more preferable_ to a gold-backed currency to make the world a halcyonic place. So, please explain, why isn’t the world already a halcyonic enough place for you, monetary-wise? Why are you mentioning gold at all? > > If it’s because most of those currencies aren’t accepted by all vendor in all places, what makes you think your _new_ competing currencies will be either? Suppose I take note of the fact that I have an incredible supply of wealth stored underneath my mattress - in a battered box marked “Monopoly”, that is. If I dig these out and take them to your store, in your ideal world should I expect them to be accepted? > > None of this has anything whatsoever to do with reducing reducing regulations, of course. That kind of came out of nowhere, really. You could definitely learn a thing or two about competing currencies. I don’t blame you for not understanding it, most people have never given it any thought. **Legalize Competing Currencies By Ron Paul**: > [@](#): > > Much has been made recently about the supposed economic recovery. A few blips in a few statistics and many believe our troubles are all over. Of course, they have to redefine recovery as “jobless” to account for the lack of improvement on Main Street. But the banks have money, Wall Street is chugging along, and the administration would like to get on with other agendae. > > They have even set up a commission to investigate the crisis as if it were all in the past. > > The truth is that Americans are still losing jobs, the Fed is still inflating, and more regulations are in the works that will prevent jobs and productivity from coming back. We are on this trajectory for the long haul. The claim has been made many times that this administration has only had a year to clean up the mess of the last administration. I wish they would at least get started! Instead of reversing course, they are maintaining Bush’s policies full speed ahead. They are even keeping the Bush-appointee in charge of the Federal Reserve! They are not even making token efforts at change in economic policy. And for all the talk of transparency, we hear that some powerful senators will do all they can to block a simple audit of the powerful and secretive Federal Reserve. > > We have been on a disastrous course for a long time. The money supply has doubled in the last year, our debt is unsustainable, the value of the dollar is going to continue its drop, and those Americans who understand where we are headed feel helpless and held hostage by foolish policy makers in Washington. When the bills finally come due and the dollar stops working we are in for some real social, economic and political chaos. That is, unless we take some major steps now to allow for a peaceful transition in the future. These steps are laid out in my legislation to legalize competing currencies. > > First of all, no one should be compelled by law to operate in Federal Reserve notes if they prefer an alternative. We should repeal legal tender laws and allow Americans to conduct transactions in constitutional money. Only gold and silver can constitutionally be legal tender, not paper money. Instead, it is illegal to conduct business using gold and silver instead of Federal Reserve notes. Simply legalizing the Constitution should be a no-brainer to anyone who took an oath of office. Consequently, private mints should be allowed to mint gold and silver coins. They would be subject to fraud and counterfeit laws, of course, and people would be free to use their coins or stay with Federal Reserve notes, as they see fit. Finally, we should abolish taxes on gold and silver, which puts precious metals at a competitive disadvantage to paper money. > > The Federal Reserve is a government-sanctioned banking cartel that has held far too much power for far too long and is in the end stages of running the dollar into the ground, and our economy along with it. The very least Congress can do, if they are not willing to abolish the Fed, and perhaps not even conduct a serious audit of it, is to allow citizens the freedom to defend themselves from being completely wiped out by their monopoly power. And this: **Competing currency being accepted across Mid-Michigan** : by Dan Armstrong > [@](#): > > New types of money are popping up across Mid-Michigan and supporters say, it’s not counterfeit, but rather a competing currency. > > Right now, you can buy a meal or visit a chiropractor without using actual U.S. legal tender. > > They sound like real money and look like real money. But you can’t take them to the bank because they’re not made at a government mint. They’re made at private mints. > > “I sell three or four every single day and then I get one or two back a week,” said Dave Gillie, owner of Gillies Coney Island Restaurant in Genesee Township. > > Gillie also accepts silver, gold, copper and other precious metals to pay for food. > > He says, if he wanted to, he could accept marbles. > > “Do people have to accept dollars or money? No, they don’t,” Gillie said. “They can accept anything they want or they can refuse to accept anything.” > > He’s absolutely right. > > The U.S. Treasury Department says the Coinage Act of 1965 says “private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash, unless there is a state law which says otherwise.” > > That allows gas stations to say they don’t accept 50- or $100 bills after a certain time of day in hopes of not getting robbed. > > A chiropractic office in Lapeer County’s Deerfield Township allows creativity when it comes to payment. > > “This establishment accepts any form of silver, gold, chicken, apple pie, if someone works it out with me,” said Jeff Kotchounian of Deerfield Chiropractic. “I’ve taken many things.” > > Jeff Kotchounian says he’s used this Ron Paul half troy ounce of silver to get $25 worth of gas from a local station. > > While the government and banks don’t accept them, many others do. > > So why is there interest in these competing currencies? > > Is it just novelty or is there something deeper? > [@](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > I don’t think I missed your posts. But, humor me, what brilliant and devastating critique of my OP did I miss? I will be glad to respond to any posts of substance. > > You eventually got around to it. And then I promptly posted a response, which you again haven’t gotten around to: [Post #203](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12824581&postcount=203), where I use the power of Economics! (well, _basic_ economics) to refute your dismissal of the immorality of leaving the fate ot the poor to the amorality of the market. > > I’ve learned, though: I will be patient a while longer to see if you eventually get around to it. Right on. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/429 "2010-08-27T22:37:22Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Are you fucking retarded or something? Only a fool would claim that Greenspan, excepting his youth, was anywhere close to a libertarian or Austrian School follower. The Austrian School is against the existence of a Federal Reserve, yet you think a Fed chairman could be a follower? The purpose of the Fed is to intervene in the marketplace, artificially setting interest rates. > > Ron Paul, by the way, opposed Bernanke from the very beginning. He oppose Ronald Reagan and called him a traitor and a complete failure. And he certainly didn’t support Bush I, Clinton or Bush II. You really need to get your facts straight. > > The Austrian School advocates and true libertarians have opposed all economic policies of our government for decades. They have never had any allegiance to the Republican Party. I know its comforting for you to narrow anything down to a partisan war, but that is simplistic and doesn’t apply to the principled advocates of economic liberty. Shoot, and here I just posted something correcting your ignorance about the flu, ignorance which could be life threatening. Where did I claim that Greenspan was a follower of the Austrian school? Of course not - no Austrian could ever pass Congress to be Fed Chairman. Those who know anything would be laughing too hard to vote. I also never claimed he was a pure libertarian, but he certainly had those tendencies, resisting regulation of the mortgage industry even as it spun out of control. And care to support Paul’s claim? In your own words please, not with 20 paragraph cut and pastes. Paul opposing Bernanke shows what a moron Paul is. Bernanke is an expert on the Depression and responses to the Depression, which is damn lucky. I know you support letting the economy fall into a depression which would have caused untold hardship to untold millions to maintain the fiction that government can’t help, but luckily those in power feel some degree of responsibility to the people of the United States. Even Bush stepped back and supported what was right, even against the rabid right wing of his party, and it is one of the things I respect him for. As for Paul calling Regan a traitor, that just shows that the guy shouldn’t be in a Committee room, he should be in a rubber room. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/430 "2010-08-27T23:09:01Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > The Austrian School advocates and true libertarians have opposed all economic policies of our government for decades. They have never had any allegiance to the Republican Party. I’m sure that no True Scotsman would join the Republicans either. Or to be less subtle; whether you like to admit it or not, factions at least of the Republicans have again and again tried to push libertarian extreme free market fantasies into reality; in post conquest Iraq for example. Our occupation government slashed the ability of what passed for the Iraqi government to regulate or tax, and forbade any government attempt to begin rebuilding the government; under the theory that the Free Market would solve everything and turn Iraq into a capitalist paradise. What then happened in Iraq pretty much demonstrates why you don’t want to admit it; Iraq failed to turn into the free market paradise the libertarians expected and collapsed into a hellhole even worse than directly after the fighting. Companies did not rush in to do the work the free marketeers forbade the government from doing, nor did Iraq become wealthy and prosperous by letting foreigners own its resources and infrastructure against its will. Not only did the magic free market fail to do a better job than the government, it did nothing of use at all. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/431 "2010-08-27T23:29:55Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > You could definitely learn a thing or two about competing currencies. I don’t blame you for not understanding it, most people have never given it any thought. > > **Legalize Competing Currencies > By Ron Paul**: > > And this: > > **Competing currency being accepted across Mid-Michigan** : > by Dan Armstrong I don’t suppose you noticed that your second quote utterly discredited the first one? We **don’t** need to legalize contradicting currencies, because -guess what?- _They’re already legal_. You can’t make your new junk look like an impersonation of US coins (they should also not be similar enough in size and shape to fool vending machines), but if you don’t do that, you can sell and accept trade of anything that anyone is willing to barter with you. This is already true. To bad that Ron Paul is too ignorant of economics, the market, and reality to realize this, as you yourself just proved (with a cite!). Or perhaps your/his problem is that the US hasn’t forced all vendors to accept gold and silver as legal tender? You want to buy a candy bar with a gold coin? How small a coin? If I wanted to run a garage sale, would I have to have a precisely accurate scale to weigh your gold shavings? What foolishness. I will also note that nothing in what you posted even _attempted_ to refute anything I said. No possible explanation for this is complimentary to you. Though they do make the balls you show in coming in and claiming that _ **I** _ lack understanding of competing currencies especially ironic. Excrutiatingly so. When come back (and you apparently will), do try and bring less fail. And quote people with less fail too. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/432 "2010-08-27T23:45:28Z")
I will add, for all this competing currency stuff, do you want to respect the government’s right to _not_ accept your competing currencies when you pay your taxes? Just because you’re willing to accept payment in live chickens doesn’t mean the government wants them. This is, of course, assuming that you don’t just want the government and police and courts and the like to work for you for free. Which it wouldn’t surprise me to hear you say. Heck, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that you hope to use this “competing currency” business as a way to _dodge_ taxes – it wouldn’t surprise me at _all_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/433 "2010-08-27T23:53:23Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@septimus](#): > > > > Let me start by freely admitting I read neither the Three-Part Manifesto of Truth and Freedom, nor the 200+ responses. What I got out of skimming the beginning of the Manifesto is that the right-wing nutcases are sincere. > > > > We know that. That’s the problem. > > Its not right wing. Its the Constitution. Its following the advice of the founders. Its protecting individual liberty. Its being antiwar except when we are attacked. Its balancing the budget and providing checks and balances to prevent abuses. > > Its only radical to a mind that has been utterly brainwashed by statist propaganda. The greatest minds of the last five hundred years have written and spoken eloquently about the value of human liberty and the necessity to restrain the power of government from abusing the natural rights (or God given rights, if you are religious) of the people. How can you be so sure that you yourself have not been utterly brainwashed? If you are going to throw out such accusations, you have to be prepared to defend the inevitable riposte. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/434 "2010-08-28T02:26:57Z")
The third time is the charm. **jrodefeld** , you refused to pay attention the first two times that I told you to follow board policy regarding copyright, so this is a Warning that you are not to C&P an entire page. Go back and read the Registration agreement regarding copyright and Fair Use. If you cannot find a way to post such information in your own words, then you have no business, here, anyway. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/435 "2010-08-28T02:35:15Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Are you fucking retarded or something? That is prohibited in Great Debates and this is a Warning that you are out of line. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/436 "2010-08-28T02:37:28Z")
I will end this thread with this: Some of you have your dollars and some of you have your gold. When the shit hits the fan, I will be the king of the world. Know why? I have a shitload of TOOLS. What can you do with gold and dollars? Nothing. I can build you shelter. I can create electrical power. I can bring transportation back. I can make liquor. I can provide food. I can use your dollars as fuel to forge your gold into practical items for survival. I am a Toolitarian! Join with me! Page one (of three) of my manifesto will be available soon for a small fee. Dollars or gold are acceptable for payment. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/437 "2010-08-28T16:11:26Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > How did a political debate about economics descend into anti-vax? Somebody doesn’t like Digital Equipment computers?? Oh, you mean anti-_vaccination_! 😃 Blame me for this. In a previous manifesto OP declared that any compulsory vaccination program was wrong. I didn’t consider vaccination to be an important issue, but thought that it would be a good example to refute the more extreme forms of libertarianism. But no matter how much we discussed this, _ **OP never grasped that society forces his kids to be vaccinated in order to protect my kids** _. But now he pretends he knew that all along. Similarly he wrote “Keynesians like deficits” or some such gibberish, and now revises this to “Kenesians like deficits during recessions.” I hope OP reads this and learns that to foster an impression of intelligence, one must take the time to think and write carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/438 "2010-08-28T17:59:39Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > I’ve beaten the vaccination issue to death already. An interesting way to put it. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > But will you concede that there is a dramatic difference between vaccinating against a deadly contagious disease and a minor illness that a person is highly unlikely to get in the first place? Vaccinating against the flu? Why would I do that? I don’t mind getting the flu and considering I am extremely healthy and work out every day it is highly unlikely that I will sick. Influenza _is_ in fact a deadly contagious disease. Of the laboratory-confirmed deaths in the EU, for example, close to one-third of the fatalities occurred in previously healthy people, including young adults who may have felt they were immortal. In any case, influenza vaccine is not mandatory except for people in certain occupations, i.e. health care workers (and exemptions widely exist here as well). > [@jrodefeld](#): > > The only place your argument makes sense is in the case of an epidemic disease where the administration of a vaccine could be seen as preventing devastating spread of illness. Given children dozens and dozens of vaccines before they are three years old is not justified. Why do you not comprehend that a huge part of the reason we no longer have epidemics of polio, measles, rubella etc. is that they’ve been prevented by widespread mandatory immunization? Of course you’re not alone in having this blind spot (if one can call it that). For example, pediatrician Jay Gordon (Jenny McCarthy’s pediatrician, who often writes antivax articles) argues that the incidence of preventable infectious diseases is so low that it doesn’t make sense to vaccinate. Guess why the incidence is low, Jay? > [@jrodefeld](#): > > We’ve only been vaccinating on this level for a few decades! What about the long term effects of giving all these inoculations? We don’t know the long term effects yet. Extensive safety studies and long-term followup research on outcomes of vaccination have been conducted (go to PubMed to look them up, or consult authoritative websites like [the vaccine information center](http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/home.html) of the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia). The “long term effects” of mass immunization are a lot of babies and children who’ve grown up to be healthy adults, instead of dying or suffering permanent injury from serious infectious diseases. > [@](#): > > The medical community has been wrong before. Just as drug companies push unneeded prescription drugs on people, they also push unneeded vaccines. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? Because it’s bankrupt conspiratorial thinking. Drug companies and docs could make more money in the treatment of millions of sick kids. Hospitalization and I.C.U. stays run up big bills. By your logic, the Medical Establishment should be fighting vaccination tooth and nail to protect their profits. Except that they’re fighting to keep children healthy. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > Yet, you would call me a flat earther for urging some caution in the number of viruses we stick in our children’s arms? Yes. And you need to learn about the immune response, and how vaccines use killed and weakened pathogens to produce immunity that thwarts real infection. I went to some trouble here to refute your inescapable vaccine logic :dubious: because it forms a significant part of why intelligent people reject Ron Paul. We figures that anyone (a doctor, no less) who is so appallingly ignorant in his own field and espouses a drastic weakening of a hugely successful public health initiative, cannot be trusted in other areas and be elected to lead our country. He’s not only extreme, he’s extremely wrong. Now you may attack the above as “cherry-picking” and return to the glorious example of Austrian Economics. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/439 "2010-08-29T06:32:13Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I sincerely hope it makes you feel better to know I read, and understood every word of your lectures. > > You seem like a fairly smart guy to have swallowed this load of hooey. Oh well, takes all kinds. > > You know why people think the Tea Party people are ignorant racist rednecks? Check out some film footage of their rallies, it’s nearly impossible to not see a misspelled, racist, protest sign. I mean, come on, you know there will be filming, the world is full of spell checkers. I don’t see anyone from the TP, (hey, hey, I just realized how very appropriate that abbreviation is, I’m liking it a lot!), doing a damn thing to weed out the racists, or even speak out against them. As long as they are swelling the ranks it’s okey dokey. Somehow they seem to think if they just keep saying they’re not racists we’ll ignore the ignorant, misspelled, signage. > How many Tea Party folks could read through that tome, ya think? Well, yeah I at least appreciate the effort to actually read what I wrote, although I resent you referring to it as “hooey”. I really hope you at some point intend to elaborate on what you found so objectionable. As for the Tea Party people at large, I think you paint with way too broad of a brush. There are certainly backwards, uneducated rednecks out there. I don’t speak for them. Every single rally or group of people I have talked to have been very different from the media narrative. How many Tea Party people have you spoken to? Have you attended any rallies or events? Like I said earlier, my goal is not to defend the Tea Party. I am providing the philosophic arguments of the intelligent opposition (not necessarily Tea Party) for you to deal with. Now, if you can continue to label anyone who is protesting the policies of the Obama administration as a bigoted racist, you are not forced to think and defend these policies. The ideas I have expressed here are pervasive in the political circles I travel in. You should really try to broaden your horizons a bit and see people as individuals, rather than as members of groups. The sad thing about political action is that you need to join with people who disagree with you on certain issues to get anything accomplished. There are wildly differing views from Tea Party to Tea Party. There are educated members, ignorant members, old, young, etc. I disagree with many of the Tea Party people. But, yes, there are a growing number of people who do understand Austrian economic theories, monetary policy, the constitution, and advocate a different foreign policy. I am speaking for these people, whether they belong to a Tea Party or not. This is the criticism and views you should be addressing. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/440 "2010-08-29T06:52:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > This is an excellent example of how unrealistic the position is even in places where I suspect almost everyone agrees on the goals. > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > **More Tolerance:** Obviously not everyone is going to be tolerant under any system. But in a libertarian society, where nobody is allowed to take away the rights of anyone else, then people become less resentful and more accepting of other people. If we decide government has no business in marriage, for example, these hot button “culture war” issues would go away and people wouldn’t care. If we allow the notion that a certain state or community can set their own standards and another community can set different rules, then everyone should be happy. People are free to move to a state that is closest to their beliefs. Nobody will feel like another group is forcing their beliefs on them. This would encourage tolerance and goodwill among our citizens. > > After the Civil War, in a land close to the libertarian paradise you propose, the government attempted to prevent Southerners from taking away the rights of former slaves. You think that made everyone more tolerant? I’d say we are in general far more tolerant than we were 50 years ago when I was a kid, and the reason for that is the government forced us to deal with “the other” in schools, workplaces, and restaurants. > > You say you live in California. Haven’t you heard Prop 8 proponents say that it is wrong for their kids to be exposed to gay people in love? What do you do when a group feels that another group exercising the freedom you support if forcing a belief on them? Of course it was justified to use the force of government to prevent continuation of slavery and pursue human justice after the Civil War. You are absolutely correct that we are becoming much more tolerant as a society over the last half century or so. This is fantastic. You are absolutely wrong that it was because the government forced everyone to be tolerant. It happened because people became more educated about different cultures, the media and the internet exploded allowing for people to become more enlightened. Most racism and bigotry are simply hateful forms of ignorance, based on not knowing about another group and assuming that all people who share superficial physical characteristics think and act alike. Our world has gotten smaller and the knowledge we have of different cultures around the globe has expanded drastically. But the government always brings up racial issues and divisions to advance a political goal. There are good arguments to be made that things like Affirmative Action actually prevent us from moving beyond race and breeds resentment. Issues that, for the most part, we have moved beyond, the media will dig them up and stir the pot once again created animosity among groups. You really don’t think that if we said that abortion and gay marriage are no business of the federal government, it wouldn’t lead to more tolerance, given that neither side would be afraid that the other would force their beliefs or sweeping social policies on the entire country? If more of these issues were accepted to be local government functions, it would help tremendously. There will still be assholes, racists, and people who simply will not let these issues alone. Yet, that segment of the population will be weakened and not given a national voice in our political discourse. As for the debate in California, I have heard these ridiculous arguments against Prop 8. But who do you think fans the flames of this issue? The media. Why should they give voice to every crazy Christian fundamentalist? The media probably has at least as much to do with breading intolerance and hostility than the actual government policies. I hope Prop 8 is defended and more states follow suit. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > **Equal Justice:** This is easy. Corporate criminals should be tried under the same conditions as a poor person. No special favors or special treatment for the white collar criminals. Government should abide by the same rules they make us follow. > > A lovely idea. But there seem to be a few problems. Rich people, and corporations, can afford better lawyers than poor people. Do you prevent them from getting the best defense possible? Or do you use government money to pay for the same class of lawyer for the poor. How do you pay for this? How do you deal with the problem that the rich, and especially corporations, have the time and resources to understand the system better than the poor and poorly educated? So this is a lovely goal, but I don’t think you have thought through how to get to it practically. That has been a problem from the beginning of time. No, we can’t make sure poor and rich have access to the same caliber attorneys. But the judicial system can be fair. There is so much corruption in government and our systems of “justice” so often protect the criminals. I know the way I phrased the issue made it seem much simpler than it really is to implement and enforce, but if we eliminate corporatism and separate the state and its functions from business (establishing a truly free economy), the businessman would have no pull with the government. It will never be perfect but the goal of equal justice is something we should always strive for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=23)