# This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784 "2010-08-19T20:08:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/641 "2010-09-05T17:45:38Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > As for Homeopathy, it DOES work if you get a good Homeopath. You are astoundingly ignorant. There are many alternative therapies in Eastern Medicine such as acupuncture and Ayurveda that allow people to attain a level of health not seen in Western culture. Your ignorance is based on you believing everything the United States medical establishment tells you without any critical thinking. These statements don’t surprise me. Ron Paul supporters include numerous homeopaths and homeopathy believers who think their candidate will be a stout defender of their creed. And they have reason to think so. [Here’s Ron Paul](http://www.infowars.com/there-is-no-right-to-health-care/) speaking before the House of Representatives on health care last year: _"A lot of problems were created in 20th century as a consequence the Flexner Report (1910), which was financed by the Carnegie Foundation and strongly supported by the AMA. Many medical schools were closed and the number of doctors was drastically reduced. **The motivation was to close down medical schools that catered to women, minorities and especially homeopathy.** We continue to suffer from these changes made which were designed to protect physician’s income and promote allopathic medicine over the more natural cures and prevention of homeopathic medicine. 16.) **We must remove any obstacles for people seeking holistic and nutritional alternatives to current medical care. We must remove the threat of further regulations pushed by the drug companies now working worldwide to limit these alternatives.** _" (apologies for linking to a loon site\* but the transcript of Paul’s remarks appears accurate based on the first portion of his speech which I saw on youtube). In other words, Ron Paul would like to do away with government regulations protecting people from health quackery, a goal heartily endorsed by the myriad supplement companies running a multibillion dollar industry dependent on false claims and gullibility. Do a search on Ron Paul and homeopathy and you’ll find lots of true believers. The tactic of cherry-picking a list of small/poorly-designed studies from homeopathy/alt med journals and the like to support homeopaths’ claims is a common one. However if you look at large well-run clinical trials and [systematic reviews](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20402610) (like those performed by the highly respected Cochrane Collaboration which look at the overall scientific literature and give weight to those studies meeting criteria for good design and statistical rigor), homeopathy and its miraculous water cures are revealed to be nothing more than placebo effect. A large [cash prize](http://www.trickortreatment.com/challenge.html) was offered for proof to the contrary but sorry, no takers. I’d be interested in seeing if libertarians overall suffer from horrendous lapses in critical thinking on issues such as vaccination, homeopathy and conspiracy theories, or if it’s an affliction to which Paul supporters are particularly prone. \*is this site also on your trusted list of sources, **jrodefeld**? ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/642 "2010-09-05T19:50:43Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > I wouldn’t recommend you read anybody else in regards to learning about inflation other than the Austrian economists. Heh, that certainly prevents all that critical thinking and comparison stuff you’d previously been so big on. I mean, you told us not to just blindly accept medical studies earlier but for economics it’s totally okay to do so? And your homeopathy cites were a lot like asking R J Reynolds if smoking causes cancer. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/643 "2010-09-05T20:31:50Z")
I already had rejected both Ron Paul (charlatan, quack and opportunistic political hack) and homeopathy (hoodoo nonsense) long ago. So far, I see absolutely nothing that changes this. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/644 "2010-09-05T21:03:29Z")
[quote=“rogerbox, post:592, topic:550784”] > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I don’t see how we can have an honest debate with **jrodefeld** when he refuses to answer where/when his mystical %15+ black membership tea party rally was, and the mods have forbidden us from asking him for more details. > > I at first thought he was playing fair, and sounded like a reasonable person who was REALLY trying to discuss issues that he has obviously read about, and just came to the IMO, wrong conclusions. > > Then when I saw he was making stuff up about the black tea party rally participants, I realized he was nothing special. How can I prove to you what I saw with my own eyes? I didn’t have a video camera. I didn’t take a petition to see how many minorities were present. And I am not even a tea party member. Most of my friends are very liberal and not at all happy with Obama or the government. The only point I was making was to emphasize that the truth about the protests that are occurring around the country is different from what is being shown on tv, at least in California. That is my experience. I actually HATE the Palin and Glenn Beck fans (who ARE generally white, middle aged christians). The Ron Paul supporters are younger, much more diverse and smarter. Then there are the antiwar rallies. And other elements of anger and protest that are not affiliated with the Tea Party, but I support them as well. Your obsession with race is more than a little worrisome. Do you judge every group and organization by first making sure there is some arbitrary number of black or Hispanic people in their ranks? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/645 "2010-09-05T21:37:27Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > More woo. All of recorded history available from every diverse source has been specifically corrupted and “fed to you by authorities with an agenda”. All of recorded history _except_ those parts sequestered by the brilliant Austrians and revealed to acolytes such as yourself. Uh huh. But you go on… No, you are not looking at all of recorded history. The textbooks in many public schools have used revisionist history that benefits the establishment. Like the following: FDR got us out of the depression The Great Depression was caused by Free Markets and the Gold Standard Lincoln was our greatest president Before (insert specific government intervention) things were terrible and people were starving in the streets It is not a conspiracy theory, its just common sense that once government gains power for itself it has every incentive to maintain that power at all cost. Sometimes that means making it impossible to comprehend of a society getting along without that government power. Therefore we get a lot of revised history. NOBODY is taught about the Federal Reserve in school. At the very least people need to be presented with the alternative of the Austrian economists and the other historians who challenge this conventional line of thinking. Then people can decide for themselves. > [@](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > We were a very young nation, with a small population and only the principles of liberty and the hopes and dreams brought about through independence from a Tyrant. Prior to the **adoption of capitalism and industrialization** the conditions for most people were deplorable. Forgive me for using a quote once again, but the brilliant economist Ludwig von Mises addresses this point quite eloquently: [bolding mine- CannyDan] > > > > [ _Post taken in its entirety from a copyrighted website alledging to be an analysis byu von Mises of the Industrial Revolution deleted. > > No link provided since jrodfeld could not be bothered to provide it._ Ed. tomndebb ] > > > > \ Yet, through the adoption of market economics and industrialization the poor were able to have access to luxuries that only a few decades earlier were only available to the wealthy. This system of market economics allowed the upward mobility that characterizes The American Dream. This was unique in all of history. The wealthy instead of exploiting the poor, were forced to satisfy the masses of the people who constituted the “consumer”. Through the scale of industrialization that drove down the price of goods and services, the standard of living was able to go up drastically for many people. Conditions were still poor, at least compared to today, but they were light years ahead of where they were prior to the Industrial Revolution. > > A very young nation, with a small population and only the principles of liberty and the hopes and dreams brought about through independence from a Tyrant. Sniffle. Yeah, that and _ **almost unlimited land and natural resources** _. And insulation by two great big oceans from any country that might have wanted to gain those resources for itself. Poor, poor us. Credit the Austrians with dragging us, kicking and screaming, back from the edge of that abyss! Phwew! > > Again the rising tide argument, this time with the added nonsense of crediting someone or something (presumably those Austrians or pre-Austrians) with “adoption of capitalism and industrialization” as if this was a deliberate choice. But no, **jrodefeld** , the Industrial Revolution was driven by advances in engineering and technology (steam power among them) and not by purposeful macroeconomic actions of an elite international corps of industrialists. The global Industrial Revolution (it wasn’t just American, you know) did indeed eventually float a lot of boats, but there was a huge toll of human misery and death associated with the societal upheaval it entailed. That toll was paid, not by the capitalists and industrialists, but by everyone else. Please note that, axiomatically, “the poor” do not actually “have access to luxuries [once] only available to the wealthy”. You didn’t mean stale bread and a leaky roof, did you? > > And yet you come back once more to that specially revealed history wherein the sainted wealthy industrialists, acting on altruistic Austrian impulses by taking from their own pockets and from the mouths of their own babies, went out of their way to “satisfy the masses of the people” rather than working them literally to death in sweatshops and child labor factories. Yup, the poor were light years ahead. Starving to death in a squalid and disease-ridden shanty town adjacent to an industrializing city was ever so much better than starving as a sharecropper in the countryside. They should have been grateful, but all they did was cry out for government interference in the free market, wanting things like limited work hours, limited work days, safe(r) working conditions, and salaries that would allow them to actually feed, clothe and house their families. Damn Keynesian ingrates! > > Perhaps I’m wrong, but the undercurrent in your entire thesis strikes me as that of an enthusiastic acolyte. Your unabashed adoration of your “brilliant” heroes, your seeming inability to stop yourself from quoting them at great length rather than offer your own arguments, even your outright rejection (“There is no debate!”) of every single demonstrated fact that contradicts your recitation, all have the feeling of religious fervor. The words of your heroes are treated as dogma, to be unquestioningly followed, even when they are glaringly, irrefutably, ridiculously (e.g., Ron Paul’s predictions) _ **wrong!** _ > > I hope you will take time during your sabbatical to read some of the actual debate points offered by other posters upthread. I’m not suggesting you become a Keynesian sycophant, but really, you need to branch out more. Your present efforts ring sadly of a pseudo-religious echo chamber, and suffer from a lengthy list of demonstrable errors. I think you can do better than that. > > Oh, and one more piece of unasked-for advice – stay far, far away from the woo. Often, insinuation of guilt by association is unwarranted and unjust. But sometimes when you lie down with dogs you do indeed get fleas. Just sayin’. I have intellectual influences. It appears to me that you blindly follow the media fed lies and haven’t cracked a history book or studied economics a day in your life. There has not been a “lengthy” list of demonstrable errors. As far as I know I attached a mis attributed quote to one of the founders and some of Ron Paul’s concerns he laid out in 2002 have not come true yet. Other than that, I haven’t made any errors, just points you somehow don’t understand. The Industrial Revolution in fact raised EVERYONE’s standard of living. It was the greatest engine for human progress in the history of the world. Yes there were some problems with government policy and it was not ideal. However the notion that the few problems that did exist warranted a major rejection of markets and a move towards socialism and interventionist central planning is outrageous. The Free economy is the most just and equitable system of commerce ever devised. And the corporations and businesses HAD to satisfy their customers or go bankrupt. The following is indisputably true: **The late 19th century saw the greatest economic growth and fastest creation of wealth in world history.** You have bought into a myth about the 19th century that is completely bogus. I want to hightlight a few passages from an article written by Tom Mullen that nails the points head on: > [@](#): > > Despite irrefutable evidence to the contrary, there is a popular view of that period that I call The Populist Myth of the 19th Century. Before dismissing its relevance, consider the fact that this myth has been and remains the driving force behind most public policy from the turn of the 20th century to the present day. Belief in this myth has been behind the gravest errors made by government, not only in domestic policy, but in foreign policy as well. The great wars of the 20th century may well have been avoided and the defeat of poverty might be within our grasp had this Myth not gained acceptance with the great majority of people. These are extraordinary claims, to be sure. However, not only are they provable with diligent research, they can be proven theoretically as well. However, before getting to the proof, let us first define our terms. What is the Populist Myth of the 19th Century? It goes something like this. > > After the United States won its independence from Great Britain, it established a system of government that placed priority of individual rights over all others. As a natural result of its system of laws, an economic system of unprecedented free trade, or laissez faire capitalism, naturally emerged. As a result, the Industrial Revolution came to America and flourished even more so than it had in Great Britain. Unencumbered by government control, America became a great wealth-producing engine and hotbed of innovation that resulted in a reshaping of the way human beings lived their lives and made great fortunes for captains of industry that lead the way in this period of explosive progress. > > However, the price of this unencumbered freedom was oppression of the working and poorer classes by these same captains of industry. Unrestricted by government regulation, large corporations were free to drive down the price of labor, cut their costs by skimping on safety and other protections in the work environment, and increase their vast fortunes at the expense of misery for the working class, which was reduced to virtual slavery. Eventually, even the children of working class families were sent into the factories to help families on the brink of starvation try to earn enough to survive. > > By the turn of the 20th century, it was apparent that reform was needed to save the working class from the victimization inherent in laissez faire capitalism. The social reform movement began, establishing social programs for those left behind, imposing tighter regulation on business, giving a fair chance to workers to unionize, and preventing the natural inclination towards monopoly that was also apparently inherent in capitalism. The fight for the common man had begun, with its champions Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, and other bright lights of the 20th century. That fight goes on to this day, championed by the “liberal” or “progressive” parties in politics, with the goal of someday achieving the economic equality that a free society desires. Except that story is a myth, completely untrue. Mullen continues: > [@](#): > > Let us take a look at the fallacies of the Myth one at a time. > > First, the quality of life of the working class did not deteriorate as the industrial revolution progressed, it rose dramatically. Pictures of what we would consider today squalid living conditions and relative poverty are extremely misleading when viewed in a vacuum. When one considers the quality of life for the working classes - the peasants of the old world - for all of history before the Industrial Revolution, it is apparent that the quality of life during the 19th century was much better. More importantly, IT WAS CONSTANTLY IMPROVING. This was the natural result of innovations like mass production. A simple understanding of supply and demand dictates that when the supply of goods and services is increased, their prices go down. The supply of goods and services, especially manufactured goods, exploded in the 19th century. Products that had previously been only available to the rich were now available to everyone, and their prices had dropped low enough that even those on an average income could afford them. For the first time in history, the primary market for the output of society’s production was the common people themselves, rather than the rich. > > Detractors of capitalism often point to periods of decline in average wages as “proof” of the inherent oppression of the worker in laissez faire capitalism. This argument demonstrates either an attempt at deliberate distortion or a pitiable lack of understanding of basic economics. While wages sometimes did go down, prices declined at a much faster rate, resulting in a dramatic rise in “real wages” for the average working class American. Money is only the medium of exchange, and its nominal value is irrelevant without considering its corresponding purchasing power. If one had the power to cut all wages by 10%, but also to cut all prices by 50%, one would have the power of making everyone much, much richer. That is exactly what laissez faire capitalism did during the 19th century. It not only made the captains of industry richer, it made the working class richer. This trend was still continuing when the social reform movement started. Had it not been interrupted, one can only imagine how much better off the working class might be today. > > There is also the myth that laissez faire capitalism naturally results in monopolies for large corporations, which then use their advantage in the market to raise prices for consumers and drive down wages, resulting in a general impoverishment of the working class. Again, the most basic understanding of economics (or even simple logic) refutes this claim easily. First, one must consider that there are two kinds of monopolies. One certainly can result from laissez faire capitalism. The other kind is a government created monopoly. The first kind of monopoly actually benefits society, while the second harms it. Continued here: [http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Populist-Myth-of-the-19th-Century](http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Populist-Myth-of-the-19th-Century) For the authoritarians, socialists and central planners, this is a convenient story to tell as it allows justification for government intervention. But most thinking people can figure out the lies we are being told. The Free economy creates wealth and prosperity. Government “redistribution” destroys the productive abilities of the citizens. The poor and working class in a truly free market would be vastly better off than in a socialist nation. These are the facts. I don’t know what else to say, but you really should learn the truth about these matters one of these days. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/646 "2010-09-05T21:47:36Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > How can I prove to you what I saw with my own eyes? I didn’t have a video camera. I didn’t take a petition to see how many minorities were present. And I am not even a tea party member. There are local news teams at every tea party of any significant size whatsoever. Just give us a link to one of the pictures that shows anything closely resembling the 15% ratio you claimed. I showed several pictures from one of the most heavily black-populated cities in America, and didn’t see 1%. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/647 "2010-09-05T22:17:51Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > How can I prove to you what I saw with my own eyes? I didn’t have a video camera. I didn’t take a petition to see how many minorities were present. And I am not even a tea party member. A name of the event, location and date would probably be enough to find pictures of the gathering that support or refute at least 15% minority attendance. > [@](#): > > Your obsession with race is more than a little worrisome. Do you judge every group and organization by first making sure there is some arbitrary number of black or Hispanic people in their ranks? The tea party uses racial imagery and scare tactics for political gain, then claims that they are not racist and that their beliefs are mainstream. If they cannot get minority attendees even in major cities that are diverse, it should tell you that minorities tend to see through their BS and see that the Tea Party has no interest in them. I wouldn’t care if the Tea Party rallies were 100% lily white, if they didn’t use racist claims and then inflate their minority attendance figures like you did. If they said what they BELIEVE, that this country needs to revert to it’s white male dominated roots, it would be a more honest “movement” and I wouldn’t care about it. Conservativism by definition is wanting to go backwards, and only white men would be blind enough to think that this country was so much better back then for EVERYONE as opposed to a small percentage of wealthy WASPs. edit: Where do you get “obsession” with race from wanting you to answer some simple questions? I thought this was a debate. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/648 "2010-09-05T22:38:28Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Some of what you are saying here is actually insane and offensive. What link did I EVER post that claimed that blacks, Jews and Mexicans should be exterminated? I provided quite a bit of links that back up what I am saying. If you are going to play the race care, you had better back it up with some facts. > > **jrodefeld** , even by your standards, asking me to review your past history of racist statements and links is not a very smart idea. But since you asked for it, I’m going to do it. > > **Your record of promoting anti-Semitism, Holocaust denial, and Hitler-worship.** > > In post 85 of [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=556453&page=2) you linked to a video which says: > “The same World Order that started World War One and World War Two, the same World Order that stole billions of dollars from African nations and hid it in Geneva banks, the same World Order that manufactured the Holocaust and managed to frame the German people for terrible deeds.” So that’s holocaust denial and all kinds of other conspiracy theory craziness in one post. > > In that same post you linked to [NWOObserver.wordpress.com](http://NWOObserver.wordpress.com), a blog which claims that Jews are joining forces with Satanists to control the world. [See here.](” [Pawns in the Game: A Satanic conspiracy to control the world | NWO Observer](http://nwoobserver.wordpress.com/2010/04/09/pawns-in-the-game-a-satanic-conspiracy-to-control-the-world/%E2%80%9D)) > > Also in post 475 of this thread current you linked to an article by John Denson which is pro-Hitler, pro-Nazi, as part of its argument against President Roosevelt. > > And at the start of this current thread, you ordered us to get our news from [rense.com](http://rense.com). Scores of articles on that site warn about Jewish plots to control the financial system and all the other usual anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. Among the articles currently up: > “The Jewish Role in Slavery”, “Crazed Israelis Threaten Total War”, and “Massive Israeli Manipulation of US Media”. > **Your record of declaring black people inferior.** > > In Post 475 of this thread you linked to an article in _The New American_, side-by-side with ads from the John Bircher Society and ads for a medal of “Jefferson Davis, Champion of the Confederacy”. That magazine is a regular fount of racist garbage; pick up an issue in your local library if you don’t believe me. As I write this, the top story on their website is an endorsement of the birthers. > > At the start of this thread you ordered us to follow Tom Woods, and in post 482 of this thread you linked to a video presentation by him. Woods is a leading American racist. Among other things, he has claimed that no black people fought for America in the American Revolution and that slavery didn’t exist at the time of the founders. See this review of one of his books: [The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History.](http://www.slate.com/id/2114713/) . > > At the start of this thread, you ordered your readers to visit and trust [rense.com](http://rense.com). That website endorses David Duke for President. If you don’t believe me, go see for yourself. (It’s between the add for five pounds of pot and the link entitled “Freemasons control local economies.”) > > In that same post, you linked to World Net Daily, which has a long history of using racist slurs and other unwanted stuff. See this link for details: > [WorldNetDaily ‘journalism’ and ‘Christian’ racism « James McPherson's Media & Politics Blog](http://jmcpherson.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/worldnetdaily-journalism-and-christian-racism/) > **Your record of attacking Mexicans and Hispanics.** > > You also ordered us to visit [breakthematrix.com](http://breakthematrix.com), another racist website. Their leading article right now is a claim that Barack Obama and Mexican immigrants are conspiring with the UN against America. > > You’ve linked to the website of the magazine Human Events (in the same post as you linked to the Holocaust denial video). Human Events is famous for things such as posting the “Illegal Alien Christmas Song”, which you can find using Google if you absolutely have to see it. > > In this thread you made scores of posts claiming that the NAFTA Superhighway, the Amero, and the North American Union are real. In reality all three are imaginary are right-wingers use them to drum up hatred of Hispanics. > > In that same thread you linked to a video in which Lou Dobbs says: “Mexicans are at war against America” and are “trying to destroy America”. This is complete garbage. You are so full of shit. Your arguments lack merit so you call someone a racist. I notice you never posted anything I actually said but instead (out of the dozens and dozens of links I have offered) claim that other websites contain something you find racist or antisemitic. This is guilt by association. First of all, I dispute that much of what you are claiming is racist or anti Mexican (how exactly does a concern about sovereignty constitute bigotry against Mexicans?), but even you should be able to understand that if I link to a certain article that I believe is correct it doesn’t mean I endorse every other article that particular website has published! Come on. I’ll tackle a few of these issues head on. As to the videos that I linked to in the post concerning global warming, I have said before that I linked to those by mistake and they don’t reflect my views in any way. It was an honest mistake and it is very far from the discussion we are currently having here. About John Denson, he is a practicing attorney in Alabama and a scholar at the Mises Institute who has authored many books, including _The Cost of War_ and _Reassessing the Presidency_. He is not pro hitler or pro nazi. That is an absolutely fallacious and ignorant comment to make. You know nothing of the man and his work. You assume to criticize Roosevelt is to defend Hitler. He is a distinguished scholar and deep thinker and your petty, ignorant smears will not work. As far as my linking to [rense.com](http://rense.com) (among MANY websites) was because I find some fascinating articles there sometimes. There are some I disagree with there as well. By the way, to be against the Israeli Lobby or Pro Palestine is not anti semitic. This is a tired smear. I don’t have to be held accountable for every article printed at [rense.com](http://rense.com) and you don’t have to visit the website. But I haven’t seen anything racist and bigoted there. As to “my record of declaring black people inferior”, let me first point out that I have MANY black friends. In high school and college I would associate in cliques that many white students avoided. I have always felt comfortable around black people, even more than my own race. Most of my favorite musicians are black, my favorite athletes are black and many of my heroes and role models are black. If you knew me, the notion that I would think of black people as inferior would be ludicrous. If anything I tend to like black people MORE than white people as a whole. Again with the link to _ **an article** _ in The New American. How does this reflect on me in any way? I can’t answer for what else they may have written. I didn’t send you a subscription to the magazine, I sent an article I found to be true and accurate. By the way I don’t believe they publish “racist garbage” as you put it. I have seen no evidence of that. As far as Tom Woods is concerned, the man is absolutely NOT a racist or bigot in any way shape or form. Explain exactly how Tom Woods is a leading American racist. I know you can’t. He certainly never claimed that slavery didn’t exist at the time of the revolution. You pulled that “fact” straight out of you ass. And that review on [slate.com](http://slate.com) certainly doesn’t do a very good job discrediting what he has said in that book. There are many more complex and detailed books authored by Tom Woods that you can read. Why don’t you read some of his books or watch the videos before you throw around accusations? About World Net Daily, I have no allegiance to them in any way. If I link to an article that someone wrote which was posted on that site, it does not mean I endorse everything else that is posted on that website (this should be obvious). So, you had better take back the idea that anything I linked to or have said is racist, because it certainly isn’t. As to “my record of attacking Mexicans and Hispanics”, as you put it: As far as [breakthematrix.com](http://breakthematrix.com) is concerned, I have not seen ANYTHING even remotely racist on that website. What is your criteria for accusing people of racism? Criticizing Obama? Is that all? You had better tell me exactly what is racist about this website or you will lose ALL credibility. So, I once linked to Human Events magazine so I am somehow responsible for something called the “illegal alien Christmas song” which you find offensive? Maybe I just wanted you to look at the article I linked to? Do you understand how this works? Many of these websites compile articles written freelance from different political perspectives and collect them in an archive for people to easily read. When I post a link it is for you to read the article written by that specific author, not to defend the website which publishes it. As to the concerns over national sovereignty, I never EVER consider that remotely related to hating Mexicans. If we secured the borders, stopped the drug war and violence in that area, and screened people for infectious disease and ties to terrorism I want us to have a VERY lenient legal immigration program where as many Hispanics can come here and work as they want. I only posted a video to Lou Dobbs (I am not a fan) to show that these concerns do show up in the mainstream and have for about a decade. That is all. Now, you have to apologize to me for claiming I am bigoted against Mexicans when that is demonstrably false. > [@](#): > > So there you have it. A dozen clear examples of you going out of your way to make clear that you hate Jews, blacks, or Hispanics. I’m sure everyone in this thread will agree with me when I say that the ones I’ve listed are only a small sample of the ones you’ve posted. In total, you’ve posted scores of such links that I can remember and doubtlessly many more that I missed. Thus I stand by my claim that roughly half you links go to racist bilge. Probably more than half, actually. > > So let’s go over the defenses that you’ve offered. > > Defense # 1: You say that you’ve never linked to anything racist. I’ve given a dozen examples of you doing so. So much for that defense. > > Defense #2: You admit that you’ve linked to racist things but you say it was an accident, and you intended to link to something else. So half of your links are accidents, and it’s just by coincidence that all of those accidents involve linking to white supremacists? Not bloody likely. > > So, for lack of any alternative, it seems safe to conclude that your real goal is posting on our board is to promote the hatred of Jews, black, and Hispanics. (Of course I could also mention the various times when you promoted the theory that women and homosexuals are trying to neuter men by dumping chemicals in the drinking water, that the BP oil spill was a government conspiracy, and so forth.) You have truly discredited yourself in this post. I hope all those reading this will see how transparent and phony your attempt to paint me as a racist and bigot truly is. All you do is point to one link out of many and you find something else that was posted on that website that you found offensive then you claim that reflects badly on me. This is a guilt by association tactic that has been used for ages. ITR champion you are truly delusional. In fact this post removed any lingering respect I may have had for you. When you stoop to calling someone names like racist, bigot, homophobe, etc you essentially are conceding the debate because you so tarnish whatever credibility you may have had. > [@](#): > > You’re the one who’s trying to promote Austrian School economists by linking to pages run by white supremacists. You tell me. > > Ten dollars says that you chicken out and refuse to respond to this post. I have not linked to ANY websites run by white supremacists. Now you are simply lying. You owe me $10, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/649 "2010-09-05T22:53:07Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > [QUOTE=jrodefeld] > Well, I’m not a doctor. I never claimed to be. Unlike economics and history, medicine is not my area of expertise. However, there are many doctors who have written extensively about the potential dangers of over vaccination of our children. There is a Medical Industrial Complex in this country that does not speak for most doctors, yet directs most national policy decisions. The Conspiracy rides again. Make up your mind, fella - is it “many” doctors or “most” doctors who peddle antivax tripe? (whack) The Cluestick says: it’s a tiny minority of quacks and cranks that reject vaccination. Heavily represented amongst these “doctors” are chiropractors, homeopaths, naturopaths, a smattering of PhDs who are speaking outside their areas of expertise and a few M.D.s who fancy themselves as Brave Mavericks persecuted by The Man, and who are fringe players lacking respect in their profession. There’s at least one recent study showing, for example, that better than 90% of pediatricians report following the full recommended vaccine schedule in their own children. And of the remainder, you’d be hard-pressed to find more than a handful who avoid vaccines entirely.Vaccines are not “drugs”. Realizing that you are not a doctor, how can you baldly say that “most” vaccines are unnecessary? I invite you to consider pertussis (currently hitting California), Hib meningitis, polio, measles and rubella (for starters) and provide your evidence that catching these vaccine-preventable diseases is fine and dandy.By this impeccable logic, we should steer way clear of Ron Paul and all his Libertarian buddies. Who’s to say that otherwise, in fifteen to twenty years there won’t be total global anarchy and starvation? **jrodefeld** goes on to cite “valid” links such as [vaccinetruth.org](http://vaccinetruth.org), [naturalnews.com](http://naturalnews.com), [mercola.com](http://mercola.com) (quackery-laden sites all) and (pause for hilarity to ensue) whale.to. While [rense.com](http://rense.com) is an automatic fail, citing whale.to on any health-related matter (or to back up any sort of claim) is a _nuclear_ fail. The whackjobs on the Whale make the [rense.com](http://rense.com) folks look almost half-sane. About the only loony-bin site you’ve omitted is Curezone. And I have faith that you’ll link to it sooner or later. > [@](#): > > **“If children receive all recommended vaccines, they will receive 2,370 times the “allowable safe limit” for mercury in the first two years of life (as if there is such a thing as a “safe” amount of a toxic poison). Yet, even after Congressional hearings instigated by Congressman Dan Burton (whose own grandchild became autistic after receiving vaccines) resulted in the FDA requesting (not ordering) vaccine manufacturers to remove this toxic heavy metal from their products, mercury is still present in many vaccines.”** > > -Rebecca Carley, M.D Can you at least keep the delusional antivax paranoia up to date? Mercury-based preservative (thimerosal) has been gone from virtually all vaccines since at least 2002 (it’s still employed in multi-use influenza vaccine vials, but a thimerosal-free alternative exists). It was removed for precautionary reasons but no negative health effects have ever been demonstrated. The quote “as if there is such a thing as a “safe” amount of a toxic poison” is absolute nonsense - there are minute amounts of all kinds of “toxic poisons” in everybody’s system. The dose makes the poison, a concept you need to familiarize yourself with. Speaking of doses, we have been overdosed with links to nutbags. Hint: if you can’t find respectable sources to support your ideas, maybe they contain a wee flaw here and there. [/QUOTE] I am going to cut short the vaccine talk on this thread. I don’t care if you don’t agree with me. It is irrelevant to the economic and political points I am making. But you are profoundly close minded with regards to medicine. You are married to the way Western Medicine operates, and refuse to acknowledge healthy alternatives. I have experience with Homeopathy, Chiropractic, Ayurveda, Accupuncture and Nutritional counseling. They are certainly not quackery. Considering you are so convinced, what are your medical qualifications? Throwing around words like quack, crank, nutjob and so forth does not boost your credibility. I makes you seem religiously devoted to a certain standard of medicine at the expense of all contradictory points of view. You also act as if all doctors agree on everything. Yes, ALL doctors agree on the amount of vaccines that should be given, ALL doctors (or credible ones) have no questions about the effectiveness and validity of vaccines Obviously these statements aren’t true, but I don’t think you will open your mind. You are too busy feeling superior to everyone else, sufficiently happy to dismiss out of hand all contrary information and disputes. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/650 "2010-09-05T23:28:20Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > The mechanisms of the marketplace are rather complex, especially considering the amount of unwise intervention and manipulation taking place by the federal reserve. Here is the issue: > > > > **Bond markets have, since 1971, been very poor predictors of inflation. In the 1970s the bond market underestimated inflation, and the bond yields were very strong in the 80s and 90s when they overestimated inflation. It is very hard to predict future price increases when the interest rate is set by central planners.** > > You seem to have been suckered into believing government statistics like the CPI to measure inflation. The reason central planning of the economy doesn’t work is because the intervention creates false signals in the market that don’t correspond to reality. You should not be reassured that ads you may have seen about the rate of bonds indicate that we will not see rising prices. > > > > There was a reason that Austrian economists were able to correctly predict the crash of 08 when so few Keynesians did. It is because of things like this. > > > > Greenspan, Bernanke, Goolsby, Geithner, Summers and the rest of the gang have failed in everything they have said and done regarding the economy. I suggest you don’t listen to another word any of these men say. > > > > And read up on Austrian economics. > > Greenspan and those in charge of the economy during Bush were loudly and proudly Libertarians.They are your peeps. They were exactly as wrong as you are espousing a economic philosophy that stupid. Don’t bring Libertarianism to people out of high school? GODDAMN IT. How many fucking times do I have to repeat the fact that Bush, Reagan and Greenspan were not libertarians? You cannot find one Austrian scholar or libertarian thinker who has had anything good to say about any of these men. By the way, you say “They were exactly as wrong as you are espousing a economic philosophy that stupid. Don’t bring Libertarianism to people out of high school?” I don’t even know what the fuck you are saying here. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/651 "2010-09-05T23:33:59Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > I am going to cut short the vaccine talk on this thread. I don’t care if you don’t agree with me. It is irrelevant to the economic and political points I am making. But you are profoundly close minded with regards to medicine. You are married to the way Western Medicine operates, and refuse to acknowledge healthy alternatives. Oh please. You are getting your butt handed to you and now you want to end this part of the conversation - but not without getting your last licks in? Please. What you put up there are nothing but stock phrases to cover the fact that the ‘medicines’ you are promoting have _no viable evidence to support their use_. This is not my attitude (nor, I suspect JackManni’s) - it is simply following where the evidence is pointing. I am more than open to other methods, but they have to play by the rules of science and evidence, not just more personal anecdotes, prettier websites and more aggressive pundits. > [@](#): > > I have experience with Homeopathy, Chiropractic, Ayurveda, Accupuncture and Nutritional counseling. They are certainly not quackery. They are. There is no decent evidence for them and your personal experience means nothing. Ever hear this quote: “The only greater liar than a quack is his patient”? Guess who said that one! > [@](#): > > Considering you are so convinced, what are your medical qualifications? Throwing around words like quack, crank, nutjob and so forth does not boost your credibility. According to who? > [@](#): > > I makes you seem religiously devoted to a certain standard of medicine at the expense of all contradictory points of view. Medicine is not about other points of view, it is about where the evidence is pointing to. It never points to homeopathy and accupuncture > [@](#): > > You also act as if all doctors agree on everything. Not really, but do continue with this strawman after you declared you were going to: "I "cut short the vaccine talk on this thread. > [@](#): > > Yes, ALL doctors agree on the amount of vaccines that should be given, > > ALL doctors (or credible ones) have no questions about the effectiveness and validity of vaccines > > Obviously these statements aren’t true, but I don’t think you will open your mind. You are too busy feeling superior to everyone else, sufficiently happy to dismiss out of hand all contrary information and disputes. You didn’t give us any information - you gave us propaganda, scare sites, disinformation , and outright LIES about vaccines and other things. You showed you have almost zero ability to evaluate evidence in this field and that your aggressive and abusive defense points to someone who likely is very, very poor in evaluating evidence in other fields as well. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/652 "2010-09-05T23:38:40Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > [QUOTE=jrodefeld] > The Great Depression, written by Lionel Robbins is the preeminent book written on the subject. Published in 1934, Robbins was one of the most eminent followers of Ludwig von Mises (who predicted the crash when no one else did). It is untrue that von Mises was the only person to predict the Wall Street Crash. A number of other economists issued warnings, among them [Roger Babson](http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/04/useconomy) (who had predicted a crash for years). Your beloved Austrian school economists these days reportedly don’t like making “quantitative” forecasts/predictions, because of distaste for statistical analysis and other sciency stuff. It’s probably safer that way. It should be noted in general that making predictions, some of which eventually come true (or can be interpreted as coming true, in Nostradamus-like fashion) can lead to a false impression of expertise, particularly when inaccurate predictions are glossed over or swept under the rug. There’s also a big difference between making predictions and having the ideas and expertise to forestall the negative ones or make the rosy ones come true. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > If you want to talk about the data, it is clearly on my side. Why don’t you respond in an intelligent manner to the information presented in this post? You silver-tongued devil. You’ll persuade us yet. 🙂 [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: I have no illusions that you all will be persuaded by what I write here. Unfortunately, it would take some effort on your part to study the literature and read through the links I posted carefully and thoughtfully. I can’t make you do that, so its up to you. As far as Austrian economics, you still have not addressed the fundamental theories such as the business cycle theory and the role of federal reserve created artificial interest rates in the creation of financial bubbles. Why don’t you address the fundamentals? Do you think the Federal Reserve has any responsibility in the crash? If so, what should be done with regards to monetary policy to prevent a future crisis? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/653 "2010-09-05T23:42:05Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Most vaccines contain all of these substances: > > > > \*\*Sodium chloride > > > > Sodium Hydroxide (also known as lye, caustic soda, soda lye.) Is corrosive and is an Eye, skin and respiratory irritant. Can burn eyes, skin and internal organs. Can cause lung and tissue damage, blindness and can be fatal if swallowed. Found in oven cleaners, tub and tile cleaners, toilet bowl cleaners and drain openers. > > > > Formaldehyde: A neurotoxin and carcinogen (effects the nervous system and known to cause cancer.) May cause insomnia, coughing, headaches, nausea, nosebleeds, and skin rashes. Commonly known to embalm corpses. It has been said that there is no safe level of formaldehyde to be ingested into the body. > > > > Hydrochloric acid: CAN DISTROY TISSUE UPON DIRECT CONTACT! Found in aluminum cleaners and rust removers. > > > > Aluminum: toxic, cancerous. > > > > Thimerosal: _mercury_ derivative (contain mercury.) Extremely dangerous preservative. Made from a combination of Ethylene Glycol (AKA antifreeze!!!) and ethanol, thiosalicylic acid, sodium hydroxide and ethyl mercuric chloride. These chemicals are nerotoxic, dangerous, fatal and easily cause brain and liver damages. causes cancer. > > > > Phosphates: suffocates all forms of aquatic life. Found in laundry and dishwasher detergent and cleaners.\*\* > > That list is from [here](http://www.vaccinationnews.com/dailynews/may2001/whatsinvax.htm), verbatim (typo and all). That may not be the original source; I’ve found it in other places on the web, predating **jrodefeld** ’s post. > > It lists them only as ingredients in the diphtheria, pertusiss, tetanus vaccine. These substances are found in many vaccines. There are other vaccines that contain more different kinds of poisons as well. The point is, do you have a problem with this? There are long term negative health effects to mercury and other known toxins. My point is we should be concerned about giving developing children dozens and dozens of injections of known poisons before they turn five years old. Do you have anything to say about this? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/654 "2010-09-05T23:46:48Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > > Actually, it lists them as ingredients in a type of broth used for growing the whooping cough bacterium. Even if we assume the list is correct (I do not see any primary source listed) the alarmism contained in it is ludicrous. Sodium chloride is freaking table salt. It’s used in intravenous solutions routinely. Most of the remaining substances (including formaldehyde) are naturally found in the human body at far higher concentrations than ever present in vaccines. Thimerosal preservative was removed from virtually all pediatric vaccines by 2002 as a precaution but never shown to have any negative health effects. > > Lists like these are the product of ignorance or are deliberately meant to deceive. > > I will not address antivax ideology further here unless **jrodefeld** or another libertarian/Paul supporter feels the need to revisit it. Fair enough. I don’t want to dwell on the subject either. I will only say that looking at what is contained in many vaccinations (many that I haven’t even listed) should lead one look at mandatory vaccinations with a skeptical mind. You may prefer to take dozens of poisons into your body (regardless of the proported benefit you are still taking large amounts of toxins into your body to prevent a disease you are likely never to get), but I prefer to take in supplements, nutrients, healthy food and get plenty of exercise to boost my immunity. But don’t ever claim that there isn’t good reason to be skeptical about vaccinations. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/655 "2010-09-05T23:52:38Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > The point is, do you have a problem with this? I have a problem with you copying other people’s words and posting them as if they were your own. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/656 "2010-09-05T23:53:58Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > But don’t ever claim that there isn’t good reason to be skeptical about vaccinations. I do actually claim that. The evidence \*\*\*for \*\*\*vaccinations is overwhelming. But I’m sure that evidence doesn’t matter to you since you believe in homeopathy. Anti-Vax, Homeopath and Austrian Economics. Do you only believe stuff that’s completely discredited? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/657 "2010-09-05T23:55:20Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > These substances are found in many vaccines. There are other vaccines that contain more different kinds of poisons as well. The point is, do you have a problem with this? There are long term negative health effects to mercury and other known toxins. Do you eat fish? Do you have a stomach? Have you ever salted your fries? You list is nothing but a scare tactic by maniacs who would kill us for some deranged hatred of one of the most successful medical applications in history. > [@](#): > > My point is we should be concerned about giving developing children dozens and dozens of injections of known poisons before they turn five years old. And the world’s answer to your point is that the exceptionally minor risk from anything in a vaccine\* is overwhelmed by the risk from the various diseases they prevent. Fanatic vax-hater’s tactics have already caused an [outbreak of pertussis in CA](http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2010-07-27-pertussis27_st_N.htm), resulting in thousands of cases and at least 8 deaths. > [@](#): > > Do you have anything to say about this? I think I just did. Thanks for the dead kids, I’m sure they’d thank you for being so very, very concerned about the salt in their vaccine. \*Most of the items you hysterically claim are ‘poisons’ and are on your scare tactic list are not in the vaccines but are used in vaccine preparation - if at all (mercury is long gone, i.e.) Saying things used in the prep are in the vaccine is like saying your salad has fecal matter and polypropelene because the veggies grew in fertilized soil and was tossed with a plastic spoon). In short, your list is a lie no matter how much you shriek and insists otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/658 "2010-09-05T23:58:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Oh, and about Ron Paul, that “fucking delusional moron” has forgotten more about economics than you will learn in your lifetime. > > If he’s forgotten it all, it would explain his utter ignorance of the subject. 😃 > > This isn’t economics. > > This also isn’t economics. > > This also isn’t economics. > > What degree did he get? > > I could found a foundation called the Fellatio Institute. It doesn’t mean I know how to suck wang. > > This also has nothing to do with his knowledge of economics. > > This also has nothing to do with his knowledge of economics. > > Many of his fellow Congressional members don’t believe in evolution. That they could be taken in by Paul’s banal stupidity isn’t exactly far-fetched. > > So? > See above. Founding institutes proves nothing. > > This means he’s fanatical, not intelligent. > > Other batshit insane authors? > > > [@](#): > > > > Let me simply suggest that you are in no position to claim someone with the accomplishments of Ron Paul is a “fucking delusional moron”. Let me also add that you may possibly fall back to a position of personal attacks and defensiveness in an effort to resist having to fully face the bredth of intellect and accomplishment that Ron Paul, von Mises, Hayek and the others have demonstrated through decades of work. > > If you spend decades painting a cathedral with shit, you’re still a loon, no matter how nice it looks. Oh, Ron Paul is a loon, is he? Have you read any of his books? If you take the time to read End the Fed or Pillars of Prosperity, the Revolution: A Manifesto, or Mises and Austrian Economics: A Personal View and can debunk his claims, then you have some credibility. As it stands, you are simply an ignorant jack off running your mouth about matters you know nothing about. Do some work and learn a thing or two about the man before you criticize him. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/659 "2010-09-06T00:04:45Z")
[quote=“jrodefeld, post:654, topic:550784”] > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Fair enough. I don’t want to dwell on the subject either. I will only say that looking at what is contained in many vaccinations (many that I haven’t even listed) should lead one look at mandatory vaccinations with a skeptical mind. Even though you list is a complete lie. Gotcha. > [@](#): > > You may prefer to take dozens of **poisons** into your body Hysterics and well-poisoning. > [@](#): > > (regardless of the proported benefit you are still taking large amounts of toxins into your body to\*\* prevent a disease you are likely never to get\*\*), Excuse me? “likely to never get”? That is just sickening. > [@](#): > > but I prefer to take in supplements, nutrients, healthy food and get plenty of exercise to boost my immunity. Won’t work - and by refusing vaccines in favor of your own egotism you reduce the herd immunity and that puts many folks at risk. This is just about you. > [@](#): > > But don’t ever claim that there isn’t good reason to be skeptical about vaccinations. There isn’t. To date the primary problem with vaccines has been allergic reactions -which are outnumbered by disease cases on the orders of hundreds or thousands to one. People with such allergens are even more dependent on her immunity which you selfishly choose to not participate. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/660 "2010-09-06T00:08:01Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > How do you know? I have and can easily demonstrate hundred of quotes from MDs and Phd doctors who oppose mandatory vaccination and believe that the number of vaccination given to our children is compromising their health. How can you claim that no serious doctors raise any objections to dozens and dozens of vaccines being given to our children? Vaccines that contain unsafe levels of Mercury and Formaldehyde? > > > > You are the one who is close minded and ignorant on this issue. > > Not at all. You are trusting a tiny fringe group of idiots. Why do you believe less than 1% of doctors? What about them is more trustworthy than the other 99%? > > Do yourself a favor and look up the phrase “Herd Immunity.” I know about herd immunity and understand very well the concept of immunizations. As to that 99% of doctors statistic you just pulled out of your ass, you would do well to read the alternative views and understand what these vaccines actually contain. Why do you think it is even necessary to artificially prevent ALL disease through vaccination? Why should I be afraid of the Flu, Chicken Pox, or any other number of fairly harmless illness that people have gotten for centuries with no lingering ill effects? Don’t you understand that people’s immune systems become stronger through fighting illness and disease? We can build up our defenses through supplementation and healthy living better than through vaccinations. Did you know that a fairly high number of vaccinations actually CAUSE the disease they are meant to prevent? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=34)