# This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784 "2010-08-19T20:08:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/701 "2010-09-06T13:11:29Z")
And to jump back 8 pages to your last reply to one of my posts: > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Economic freedon is not the only sort of freedom. If you have a choice between working 12 hours a day for 2 dollars an hour or starving on the streets you may have economic freedom, but you aren’t free. This is a major flaw in almost all Libertarian ideology, and what leads people like Der Trihs to call it ‘stupid and evil’. Because if you care about the poor, it is. > > > > These are the sorts of problems with your brand of Libertarianism that are immediately obvious, even to the layman. You get called crazy because you are ideologically blinded to such nuances. > > First of all, nobody would be forced to work for two dollars an hour or starve. That is a false choice that wouldn’t exist in a free economy. Workers would be paid what they are worth. If a competitor is paying its employees eight dollars an hour, how would this company get away with salaries of two dollars an hour? Plus, people would be unwilling to work for less than a fair amount so business would adjust to pay people what they are worth. Minimum wage laws would be unnecessary. There are certain jobs that are worth less than minimum wage today, but they don’t exist because of minimum wage laws. So, raising the minimum wage destroys jobs and people get laid off. These kind of policies end up hurting people. This is my point. > > There is a difference between caring about the poor and the true effects of the policies you advocate, which is very much opposite of your intended result. This just makes me want to bang my head on the desk. First you just handwave any possible negative effects of the free-market (it’s can drive salaries down as well as up) away just by saying ‘that wouldn’t happen’. Then you directly contradict yourself. You are saying that people wouldn’t be forced to work for 2 dollars an hour and then say that without the minimum wage jobs would be created that pay _less than the minimum wage_. Since you would presumably also abolish welfare you would be leaving people with the choice of working for less than minimum wage or starving. **That is exactly what I said.** I’m glad you agree with me that Libertarian polices are bad for the poor. At least you’re honest. Poor people often aren’t poor because there is a shortage of jobs for them to do. They are poor because the only work they are qualified for is valued so low that they remain poor. Why do you think this would be helped by removing the minimum wage? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/702 "2010-09-06T13:20:32Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Really, is there any doubt that the founders were libertarians? They were so libertarian, they created a country which had legalized chattel slavery, which routinely subsidized private corporations, which routinely redistributed wealth and which routinely barred people from working in their chosen profession based on race, religion, ethnic origin and gender. I don’t see how anyone can claim the founders were remotely libertarian unless they didn’t understand libertarianism. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/703 "2010-09-06T13:51:32Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Okay, first of all you believe it is the governments job to “protect” us from “health quackery”? Even if you endorse the notion that homeopathy and other kinds of alternative therapies are bullshit, you shouldn’t limit my, or anyone else’s right to use them. > . . . > Why don’t you support health freedom? I was under the impression that a libertarian position was that the only role of government was to protect the citizens from coercion and fraud. Homeopathy is fraud and, therefore, the government needs to provide protection. (Unless, of course, there is a new variety of libertarianism that gets to declare someone else’s practices as fraud while declaring their own favorite woo as freedom.) And, of course, no one in the government is actually preventing anyone from engaging in the fraud of homeopathy, either as a seller or buyer, except that certain fraudulent claims in advertising are proscribed. As long as one clearly indicates that one’s product is homeopathic, one is allowed to hustle it to the rubes. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/704 "2010-09-06T14:09:00Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Really, is there any doubt that the founders were libertarians? There is no doubt, at all, they they were not libertarians in the sense that you use the word, today. Go look at the histories of Shay’s Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion and see on which sides the Founders lined up, pretty much universally. (Shay’s Rebellion also offers an interesting insight into the notion of tying all money to gold, although I am sure that you would spin the history differently.) Cherry-picking a few quotes from the Founders on different aspects of freedom does not actually establish that they favored a “libertarian” form of government as you would picture it. It just means that you have found a book that has collected cherry-picked quotes that sound good to you outside of their original contexts. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/705 "2010-09-06T14:25:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Homeopathy is fraud and, therefore, the government needs to provide protection. > (Unless, of course, there is a new variety of libertarianism that gets to declare someone else’s practices as fraud while declaring their own favorite woo as freedom.) Or they could just decide that they don’t like something like the FDA and just found their own pay-as-you-go DFA. Rand Paul is blazing the trail! FREEEEEEDOM!! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/706 "2010-09-06T14:44:39Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Beyond the incredibly condescending tone and undeserved attitude of superiority, you completely missed the point. I got no comment on this yet. Just, you know, _wait for it._ > [@jrodefeld](#): > > The Liberty Dollar does not look like the US Dollar. At ALL. Nobody would be confused, nor would anybody mistake it for counterfeiting. You’re still having comprehension problems related to your own cites. The charge was not counterfeiting. Nowhere does it say that the charge was counterfeiting. As your own cite explained six months ago, the charge was creating too close an imitation of the US dollar. As your own cite in this very thread explained, the charge was creating too close an imitation of the US dollar. Counterfeiting means creating a cheap knock-off designed to look like the real thing. That’s not what these poor dumb bastards were doing. They were creating expensive coins that were tagged with "". It's irrelevant that no one would have mistaken the coins for counterfeit currency. That wasn't the charge. That's not the relevant law. The law in this case is that only the US government gets to make US dollars. Even the dollar sign itself, , comes from the initials of the country, the US. Uncle Sam owns that likeness. They could have denominated the coins by ounce. They could have denominated the coins as Sparmafunq Tollagars. But they didn’t. They denominated the coins as _dollars_, and that’s why they got busted. Unjust? Maybe. But that’s not how you were arguing it. You tried, and failed, to make the case that this was related to currency competition. Two times now that I’ve seen, you have falsely used the Liberty Dollar case to argue that there are no competing currencies allowed at all. In March you wrote: “Thus, it is ILLEGAL to circulate competing currencies.” That’s wrong. There are alternative circulating currencies. And in this thread? “Don’t ever tell me people are free to circulate private currencies in this country. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.” That’s not only wrong. It’s _beautifully_ wrong. It’s a masterpiece of fail. Why? Because in addition to being completely incorrect, it shows an incredibly condescending tone and undeserved attitude of superiority. You’re not just wrong about damn near everything under the sun. You’re wrong with _style_. That’s why I like you so much. > [@jrodefelt](#): > > But leaving that aside, I am advocating for the private money system that Hayek argued for. Was Hayek also too stupid to know that he was advocating for something that we already had (according to you)? Hayek wrote his little booklet _Denationalisation of Money_ in 1976. This was soon after the Nixon Shock and the fall of the Bretton-Woods international gold standard. Obviously, inflation was a huge concern of the time, and Hayek’s book is indeed filled with breathless rhetoric about the evil government and its inability to maintain a steady price level. If he’d written the book in the late 80s, he would’ve seen differently. But more important than that, Hayek’s currency reform is primarily concerned with _bank deregulation_. That was his method to get competitive currencies. That is, yes, different from the system of competitive currencies today. Even so, you seem to miss the fact that alternative currencies like e-gold were illegal at the time he wrote his book. Hayek could not have commented upon the competitive currency system as it exists today, because it did not exist at the time. In the United States, for example, contracts could _not_ specify weights of gold and be enforced by the courts. That was a legacy of the gold standard. The gold market didn’t become truly free until _after_ the standard was dropped and the fiat currency established. It was in 1977, a year after Hayek published his book, that the gold regulations in the US were relaxed, and contracts could once again specify payment in weights of gold instead of US dollars. That is the competitive currency condition that exists today, that Hayek didn’t see when he was writing his booklet. Now, that change would’ve pleased him, but it’s not everything he was looking for. As I said, bank deregulation was the core of his competing currencies plan, and we don’t have that. But this still doesn’t help your case. The system that Hayek describes is traditional private market banking, like it existed back in the day, which is to say: a _fractional reserve system_. You say you read all these books, but you can’t even seem to differentiate different Austrian viewpoints. Hayek wasn’t a full-reserve, gold-buggering nutter like Rothbard. But what do I find on page four of this very thread? The following Rothbardian recommendation from you: “Fractional Reserve Banking is outlawed. Banks are required to keep 100% reserves.” That is not Hayek’s deregulated system. You are blatantly contradicting yourself if you want to advocate the two systems together. Hayek theorized that banks could issue their new currency in the form of new loans put out into the community. The new currency would be backed, initially, by a basket of other currencies, with its long-term value to be pegged as close as possible to a basket of commodities. Hayek specifically mentions that the free market would ensure that banks kept an adequate percentage of reserves on hand to deal with any potential withdrawals. That’s not “full reserve” banking. It’s an unregulated fractional reserve system. And that particular suggestion from Hayek has, of course, not come to pass. It _is_ an interesting idea, but it’s still incomplete. It’s not fully formed. He dances completely around the idea of seignorage: You can’t think about the predominant currency without considering taxation. None of this story comes through in your post. You just cut&paste what other people wrote, as long it’s Austrian. It doesn’t seem to matter to you that Hayek and Rothbard belonged to two different, sometimes contradictory, Austrian traditions. Advocating both together is a demonstration that you understand neither. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > The intricacies of monetary policy and banking elude you. With _style_. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/707 "2010-09-06T17:09:03Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Why don’t you support health freedom? “Health freedom” is one of those buzz-phrases that is popular among supplement dealers and the websites of alt med promoters who depend on advertising from sellers of alt med products and services. Translated, the phrase means “the freedom to sell whatever I want making any claims for it that I want, without having to worry about any regulations compelling me to show that those products/services are safe and effective.” It’s all about the money. [Here’s a typical conspiracy theory-laden rant](http://www.naturalnews.com/028464_health_freedom_America.html) from a “health freedom” advocate. Note the accompanying ads. It’s not suprising that such attitudes are popular among libertarians, many of whom seem to have the basic philosophy “I got (or expect to get) mine, buddy, so get out of my way”. Their willingness to let health quackery flourish does not automatically invalidate their views on economics and other matters, but their lack of critical thinking skills and gullibility do make me very suspicious of their platform as a whole, and unwilling to vote Ron Paul or anyone like him into office. My advice to Paul supporters is to clam up on the crazy (or enabling the crazy) and stick to Austrian economics. I can see where that would be difficult though - the crazy seems integral to libertarianism/Paul groupitude. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/708 "2010-09-06T19:07:32Z")
> [@Baboonanza](#): > > Incidentally, if you want to know why Homeopathy ‘appears’ to work in some cases despite it being based on completely impossible junk science I suggest you read up on the placebo effect. Not to mention that people get better on their own all the time without the placebo effect or medicine. Frauds like homeopathy or faith healing just try to take the credit when the body manages to restore itself without help. Which of course is why they never “cure” anything that the body can’t do on its own, like reattaching a severed body part. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/709 "2010-09-06T23:27:20Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I already had rejected both Ron Paul (charlatan, quack and opportunistic political hack) and homeopathy (hoodoo nonsense) long ago. So far, I see absolutely nothing that changes this. You certainly don’t have to support Ron Paul and my motivations are not to worship and deify Paul, though you would be forgiven for thinking so. I am promoting the philosophy of human liberty articulated by the great philosophers and intellectuals through the ages. The documents authored by the founders (The Constitution and Bill of Rights, setting up a Republic) are watershed moments in human history. The Austrians have done the premier work on economics thus far and Ron Paul is simply the latest in a tradition of scholarly thinkers that reject authoritarianism and promote a society based on peace and non aggression. It seems you have made up your mind and are stubbornly refusing to revise your line of thinking. This is not uncommon. You are perfectly fine to believe that Homeopathy is quackery (many believe this). There is a big difference between you having that opinion and forcing other people through the government to not be allowed to seek alternative medical treatment if they choose. This is a paternalistic stance by government, one that invites abuse and is totally incompatible with a free society. People should be allowed to do things that are stupid if they don’t harm anybody else. As far as I am concerned, I have had an experience with Homeopathy that worked for me. You can believe me or not, I don’t care. You cannot dispute my subjective experience and results. The larger point is that Ron Paul is not endorsing homeopathy, rather he is endorsing medical freedom. You can call Ron Paul a lot of names if you wish, but he is certainly not a charlatan. A charlatan is a person who knowingly deceives people for his own personal gain. This hardly describes the decades of selfless public service and multitudes of occasions where he was the sole lone vote on pieces of legislation he strongly believed to be ill conceived and unconstitutional. He shows true courage of his convictions. And he is definitely not an opportunistic political hack. It seems to me you lack the ability to respond on the substance so you haphazardly grab a handful of insults and accusations to hurl Dr Paul’s way, regardless of how provably inaccurate they are. He returns a portion of his congressional pay each year to the Treasury! On principle he didn’t accept Medicare in his medical practice, rather treating patients for **free** if they couldn’t pay. Special interests and lobbyists don’t even bother talking to Ron Paul when they go to Washington. Everyone knows his vote cannot be bought. He toiled endlessly for several decades without recognition until the wars and economic problems that he warned about became foremost in peoples minds and his popularity soared. If he is an opportunistic “hack” he is not very successful. As a Statesman he is doing pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/710 "2010-09-06T23:42:42Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > How can I prove to you what I saw with my own eyes? I didn’t have a video camera. I didn’t take a petition to see how many minorities were present. And I am not even a tea party member. > > There are local news teams at every tea party of any significant size whatsoever. Just give us a link to one of the pictures that shows anything closely resembling the 15% ratio you claimed. I showed several pictures from one of the most heavily black-populated cities in America, and didn’t see 1%. You know very well what you are asking is impossible. The protest that I attended was not sponsored by the GOP and, although I did see some local media at the event, searches on the internet do not show any coverage or pictures of the event I attended. I also attended a heavily liberal populated antiwar rally and there were plenty of minorities there (as you would imagine) and the ones I talked to were very open to libertarian ideas and many liked Ron Paul a lot. And none were happy with Obama. Why don’t you actually go out and talk to people and engage with people rather than judging everyone in the country based on Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin? I don’t see why you obsess on race. That is inherantly more racist than those of us who attend an event and judge it on the substance of the message, thinking nothing of the races in attendance. I have never been a Republican in my life. You can believe me or not on whether there are angry African Americans, some of whom are even Tea Party members. What, you think every black person is required to support Obama because of the color of his skin? Isn’t THAT offensive? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/711 "2010-09-06T23:54:46Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > How can I prove to you what I saw with my own eyes? I didn’t have a video camera. I didn’t take a petition to see how many minorities were present. And I am not even a tea party member. > > A name of the event, location and date would probably be enough to find pictures of the gathering that support or refute at least 15% minority attendance. > > > [@](#): > > > > Your obsession with race is more than a little worrisome. Do you judge every group and organization by first making sure there is some arbitrary number of black or Hispanic people in their ranks? > > The tea party uses racial imagery and scare tactics for political gain, then claims that they are not racist and that their beliefs are mainstream. If they cannot get minority attendees even in major cities that are diverse, it should tell you that minorities tend to see through their BS and see that the Tea Party has no interest in them. > > I wouldn’t care if the Tea Party rallies were 100% lily white, if they didn’t use racist claims and then inflate their minority attendance figures like you did. If they said what they BELIEVE, that this country needs to revert to it’s white male dominated roots, it would be a more honest “movement” and I wouldn’t care about it. > > Conservativism by definition is wanting to go backwards, and only white men would be blind enough to think that this country was so much better back then for EVERYONE as opposed to a small percentage of wealthy WASPs. > > edit: Where do you get “obsession” with race from wanting you to answer some simple questions? I thought this was a debate. Okay, do you understand that many “Tea Party” rallies are not even Republican in nature? That one rally can be quite different from another? The people I associate with and organize with are all Independent or registered Democrat. And do you get this point: \*\*There are rallies and protests that are not even called tea parties that criticize a myriad of issues in policy (bailouts, wars overseas, corporate fraud and abuse, issues of debt and general anger at ALL politicians). \*\* Then there is the GOP co opted movement that seeks to perpetuate the image of white, southern Christian anger motivated by race. This is what you are talking about. The Ron Paul movement and feelings of anger and discontent in the TRUE grassroots dates back to 2006-2007. That is when I got involved and we were all angry at Bush at the time for the wars overseas and his out of control spending. The media is playing a game of divide and conquer used to ensure that people like you don’t give a grassroots conservative the time of day. Instead we fight among ourselves while the economy burns to the ground. I see through this yet you are still in the dark. Look at the libertarian energy on the college campuses across the country. Look at the crowds Ron Paul attracted in San Francisco, filled with young people, young, old, christian, atheist, all races. If you even for a minute could see what me and my friends do and the type of diversity there is at the grassroots revolution that is brewing in this country, it would open your eyes to reality quite a bit. Why do you insist upon thinking of the “tea party” as a monolithic movement with no differences among the attendants? There are many other reporters and journalists who have remarked about the stark differences between some of the rallies and events and the “Glenn Beck rally” and the GOP image that is being portrayed on the television. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/712 "2010-09-07T00:07:06Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > I am going to cut short the vaccine talk on this thread. I don’t care if you don’t agree with me. It is irrelevant to the economic and political points I am making. But you are profoundly close minded with regards to medicine. You are married to the way Western Medicine operates, and refuse to acknowledge healthy alternatives. > > Oh please. You are getting your butt handed to you and now you want to end this part of the conversation - but not without getting your last licks in? Please. > > What you put up there are nothing but stock phrases to cover the fact that the ‘medicines’ you are promoting have _no viable evidence to support their use_. This is not my attitude (nor, I suspect JackManni’s) - it is simply following where the evidence is pointing. I am more than open to other methods, but they have to play by the rules of science and evidence, not just more personal anecdotes, prettier websites and more aggressive pundits. > > They are. There is no decent evidence for them and your personal experience means nothing. Ever hear this quote: “The only greater liar than a quack is his patient”? Guess who said that one! > > According to who? > > Medicine is not about other points of view, it is about where the evidence is pointing to. It never points to homeopathy and accupuncture > > Not really, but do continue with this strawman after you declared you were going to: "I "cut short the vaccine talk on this thread. > > > [@](#): > > > > Yes, ALL doctors agree on the amount of vaccines that should be given, > > > > ALL doctors (or credible ones) have no questions about the effectiveness and validity of vaccines > > > > Obviously these statements aren’t true, but I don’t think you will open your mind. You are too busy feeling superior to everyone else, sufficiently happy to dismiss out of hand all contrary information and disputes. > > You didn’t give us any information - you gave us propaganda, scare sites, disinformation , and outright LIES about vaccines and other things. You showed you have almost zero ability to evaluate evidence in this field and that your aggressive and abusive defense points to someone who likely is very, very poor in evaluating evidence in other fields as well. Look, I am more than happy to create a separate thread later about vaccines and why alternative and eastern medicine is beneficial in addition to western doctors. I made a small comment about the vaccination issue and it launched into a debate I don’t want to have right now. Believe me, I have stacks of information pertaining to harm caused by excessive vaccinations and plenty of Phd and MD doctors who dispute the pharmaceutical industry and their desire to push ever increasing numbers of drugs and immunizations on the populace. I don’t shy away from the debate, I just want to focus on the subject of THIS thread, not go off on a tangent. It seems to me that you would like to change the debate because YOU are getting your ass handed to you on the much more important topics of economics, US history and foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/713 "2010-09-07T00:12:00Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > The point is, do you have a problem with this? > > I have a problem with you copying other people’s words and posting them as if they were your own. :rolleyes: Yeah, nice diversion of the issue. What I posted was basically a list. It was simply facts. If you dispute those facts, we can discuss it. Now, why don’t you answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/714 "2010-09-07T00:30:23Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Look, I am more than happy to create a separate thread later about vaccines and why alternative and eastern medicine is beneficial in addition to western doctors. I made a small comment about the vaccination issue and it launched into a debate I don’t want to have right now. That would be fine, but then you continue with crap like the next few paragraphs - not the indication of someone who wants to end this part of the conversation, but rather a person who wants desperately to get the last word in without comment. > [@](#): > > Believe me, I have stacks of information pertaining to harm caused by excessive vaccinations and plenty of Phd and MD doctors who dispute the pharmaceutical industry and their desire to push ever increasing numbers of drugs and immunizations on the populace. No, you do not. You have the same crappy propaganda that every other anti-vax liar has tried to foist on the ignorant for the past couple of decades. You data fails even from your explanation - I can already see the lies before you even post them. Why? Is my mind so closed? No, I have merely seen this again and again. > [@](#): > > I don’t shy away from the debate, I just want to focus on the subject of THIS thread, not go off on a tangent. And yet you keep saying stuff like the paragraph above. You keep trying to puff up your argument to make it look big. > [@](#): > > It seems to me that you would like to change the debate because YOU are getting your ass handed to you on the much more important topics of economics, US history and foreign policy. Oh really?! Please name a post in this thread where you ‘handed me my ass’ on those topics. Go ahead. I’ll wait. But you won’t find one. I haven’t even bothered with those part of the thread - so I couldn’t exactly ‘have my ass handed to me’ on economics & history when I haven’t even bothered with those topics. Others are doing that quite well & better than I could. So how does that work, eh? Perhaps a bit of delusion or untruths in your words? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/715 "2010-09-07T00:38:21Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > > I have a problem with you copying other people’s words and posting them as if they were your own. > > :rolleyes: Yeah, nice diversion of the issue. Actually, his commentr is quite pertinent. While going on at length about the rights of people to the fruits of their labors–libertarian style–you have repeatedly denied other authors the fruits of their labor by re-posting their words without attribution and in violation of Fair Use copyright laws. It does shed a bit of light on your words that you are willing to violate your own principles for your own benefit. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/716 "2010-09-07T00:40:46Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > But don’t ever claim that there isn’t good reason to be skeptical about vaccinations. > > I do actually claim that. The evidence \*\*\*for \*\*\*vaccinations is overwhelming. > > But I’m sure that evidence doesn’t matter to you since you believe in homeopathy. > > Anti-Vax, Homeopath and Austrian Economics. Do you only believe stuff that’s completely discredited? 😃 I don’t “believe” in homeopathy. I was treated by a homeopath and got good results. And I believe people should have the liberty to choose homeopathy or alternative medicine if they want to. That is all. I don’t understand homeopathy entirely, nor do I care whether other people believe it. And I am not Anti Vaccine. I only understand the politics of the FDA and the way our government and medical system work. The truth is people will be given vaccinations they don’t need and some which are not sufficiently tested. And there are growing reports of people getting the disease FROM the vaccine. During the original swine flu “epidemic” in the 70s more people died from the vaccine than from the swine flu itself. But I suppose you support vaccinated against a bullshit “epidemic” that is not truly pose a threat? The scientific principle of immunization is sound. I am not disputing this. By introducing a small amount of a virus a persons body can be induced to build up an immunity. Fine, great. Our body does this naturally, as well. There are cases where vaccinations are wise and necessary. The problem I have is the adjuvents and other poisons found in vaccinations. Mercury, formaldehyde and many other known neurotoxins are found in provably harmful quantities in many vaccines. Therefore I am arguing that we exercise caution when pursuing this trend of vaccinating our children in increasingly large numbers when we don’t know the long term effects of huge doses of mercury and poisonous adjuvents on the developing body. There are MANY doctors who share my concerns. I guess you will simply call me a quack for voicing my sensible concerns and put your head back in the sand. Don’t you pay attention to the number of harmful prescription drugs that are recalled every year? And they were all approved by the FDA. Why trust these people? If I oppose taking a lot of potentially harmful prescription drugs, it doesn’t mean I dispute the value of having drugs available for certain people. There is abuse in every area of medicine and relying on this mode of medicine to the exclusion of prevention and healthy living is foolhardy. Everything in moderation, as the Buddha said. As to your insane view that Austrian economics is “completely discredited”, by who? Who discredited Austrian economics? For most of our history and a lot of world history the principles that the Austrians and classical economists believed were understood as true laws, like you can’t create wealth out of a printing press, or that balancing the budget and paying of debts is important to the long term health of an economy. I haven’t heard these views “discredited” by anyone. Our government adopted Keynesian economics because it was convenient for the ruling class and bankers who wanted to have justification for complete control and intervention into the marketplace. That is all. So why don’t you make the effort to discredit Austrian theories? In detail, explain the following to us: \*\*What is the role of the Federal Reserve in the creation of financial bubbles? Why is the Austrian Theory of the Business Cycle faulty, even though it allowed astute economists to predict both the Great Depression and the current crisis and every recession in between? What is the harm of inflation and why do you endorse the notion that the deliberate debasement of the peoples currency is good for the economy? Why do you endorse the secrecy of the Federal Reserve system? How can Keynesian economics deal with the deficit and permit the reduction of the national debt? Aren’t they contradictory?\*\* There is more issues to deal with, but if you claim to know how discredited these economic ideas are you should have no trouble debunking them yourself. If you can’t they I can only assume you don’t really think for yourself and rather mindlessly accept what you have been taught without thinking. No offense to you, Lobohan, but in my experience people who speak in generalities like this idea has been “discredited” and talk about what “the experts” think, as if economics and history is monolithic, really don’t understand these subjects in the slightest. They fall back on terms like “crank”, “nutjob”, or “conspiracy theory” to mask their inability to critically think about important issues and actually understand them. Of course you could fall back and blindly believe “the experts” (whoever they are) that MSNBC parades in front of their cameras. Or you could think better of yourself and take it upon yourself to learn about these issues and respond critically with your own thoughts, displaying at least a modicum of intellectual integrity. I hope you fall into the latter category. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/717 "2010-09-07T01:28:33Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > These substances are found in many vaccines. There are other vaccines that contain more different kinds of poisons as well. The point is, do you have a problem with this? There are long term negative health effects to mercury and other known toxins. > > Do you eat fish? Do you have a stomach? Have you ever salted your fries? > > You list is nothing but a scare tactic by maniacs who would kill us for some deranged hatred of one of the most successful medical applications in history. > > And the world’s answer to your point is that the exceptionally minor risk from anything in a vaccine\* is overwhelmed by the risk from the various diseases they prevent. Fanatic vax-hater’s tactics have already caused an [outbreak of pertussis in CA](http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2010-07-27-pertussis27_st_N.htm), resulting in thousands of cases and at least 8 deaths. > > > [@](#): > > > > Do you have anything to say about this? > > I think I just did. Thanks for the dead kids, I’m sure they’d thank you for being so very, very concerned about the salt in their vaccine. > \*Most of the items you hysterically claim are ‘poisons’ and are on your scare tactic list are not in the vaccines but are used in vaccine preparation - if at all (mercury is long gone, i.e.) Saying things used in the prep are in the vaccine is like saying your salad has fecal matter and polypropelene because the veggies grew in fertilized soil and was tossed with a plastic spoon). In short, your list is a lie no matter how much you shriek and insists otherwise. Let me start by asking: Do you think people should be vaccinated for every single possible disease? Very elderly people can die from the flu, but if I get the flu it is no big deal. So why should I be vaccinated against the flu? First of all if I am healthy and eat well, I am very unlikely to get sick in the first place. But even if I do, the downside is very low. Is there ANY vaccination that you oppose or think there is no reason for a healthy person to get? Not all of the diseases they vaccinate against cause death, you know. Here are a number of completely unnecessary vaccines that have been given: [http://seekingalpha.com/article/92131-mercks-gardasil-a-risky-and-unnecessary-vaccine](http://seekingalpha.com/article/92131-mercks-gardasil-a-risky-and-unnecessary-vaccine) > [@](#): > > Merck’s Gardasil: A Risky and Unnecessary Vaccine > > “Merck lobbied every opinion leader, women’s group, medical society, politicians, and went directly to the people – it created a sense of panic that says you have to have this vaccine now.”- Dr. Diane Harper, professor of medicine at Dartmouth Medical School and a principal investigator on the clinical trial of Gardasil, to The New York Times > > An editorial accompanying a study published by The New England Journal of Medicine (“Human Papillomavirus Vaccination - Reasons for Caution”) by Charlotte J. Haug, M.D., Ph.D), questioned the “lack of sufficient evidence of an effective vaccine against cervical cancer.” > > An article on the marketing of Merck’s (MRK) Gardasil vaccine in The New York Times describes how the company managed to get “an obscure killer confined mostly to poor nations to the West’s disease of the moment.” > > Merck is forecasting sales could top $2 billion this year. > > According to the government’s Centers For Disease Control and Prevention [CDC] website, > > 11,892 women in the U.S. were told that they had cervical cancer in 2004, and 3,850 women died from the disease. It is estimated that more than $2 billion is spent on the treatment of cervical cancer per year in the U.S.” Scrolling further down the CDC’s web page shows statistical trends that “suggest that cervical cancer incidence and mortality continue to decrease significantly overall. > > These statistics are from 2004 – two years before the FDA approved Merck’s Gardasil vaccine. > > Cervical cancer is caused by the human papillomavirus [HPV] virus. As Merck’s Gardasil Patient Information sheet states: > > There are more than 100 HPV types; Gardasil helps protect against 4 types (6, 11, 16, and 18). These 4 types have been selected for Gardasil because they cause approximately 70% of cervical cancers and 90% of genital warts. > > Most of the population has contracted the HPV virus but their immune system has been able to combat it on its own. The sure way for women to avoid HPV erupting into genital warts or cervical cancer is to live a life of celibacy. Since this is not acceptable way of life for most of the population, the next best thing is to keep your sexual partners to a minimum and know their sexual health history. The more partners a woman has been with, the more important it becomes to have regular gynecological exams and Pap tests. Cervical cancer can be treated if detected early enough. > > Considering that genital warts and cervical cancer rates are decreasing in the West because it can be prevented/treated by women taking charge of their health through appropriate behavior and preventative health care, why should the US government be spending over $1 billion on administering the Gardasil vaccine to girls? What’s even worse than that is 24 states are proposing to mandate that middle school girls get the Gardasil vaccine. > > How Merck got politicians and parents to put Gardasil up there in importance with vaccines for such deadly diseases as polio and smallpox, explains why Gardasil was named “Brand of the Year” by Pharma Executive Magazine, and won the 2008 Pharmaceutical Advertising and Marketing Excellence awards. And: [http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/98416/the\_dangers\_of\_a\_hepatitis\_b\_vaccination.html](http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/98416/the_dangers_of_a_hepatitis_b_vaccination.html) > [@](#): > > The Dangers of a Hepatitis B Vaccination for Your Baby > > Brand new one day old babies are routinely injected with the hepatitis B vaccine in US hospitals, yet it can be very dangerous and is completely unnecessary.Hepatitis B is a disease spread > > most often by unprotected sex and infected drug needles neither of which the average newborn will participate in.The disease is about as hard to catch as the HIV virus yet no where near as dangerous.90-95% of all hepatitis B cases completely recover after a few weeks of symptoms such as headache, nausea and fatigue.The disease is far from deadly and the people who are at risk of getting hepatitis B are IV drug users, prostitutes and other adults with multiple unprotected sexual encounter, prisoners, and babies born to infected mothers.Pregnant women are tested during pregnancy and unless they are positive carriers of the hepatitis B virus, their newborn should not have to receive this vaccination.Yet since 2002 this shot has been added to the recommended immunization schedule and many US hospitals give it to newborn babies before they even leave go home.Common reactions to the hepatitis B vaccine among those who can communicate include headache, nausea, fever and fatigue oddly the same symptoms as the hard to catch disease.As for more serious side effects, the Hepatitis B vaccine has also been reported to cause a variety of immune and neurological health problems.There have been persistent reports of the vaccine being related to sudden infant death syndrome which is most likely to occur at 2 months, 4 month and 6 months exactly the same time as the hepatitis B vaccine series is often given.Other reports indicate such adverse reactions such as Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS), transverse myelitis, optic neuritis, and multiple sclerosis as well as immune system dysfunction including chronic arthritis.Some speculations have also come about insisting on a connecting with Autism and the hepatitis B vaccine as well as several more on the recommended immunization schedule. > There has been an alarming number of newborn and infant deaths following the injecting of the hepatitis B vaccine.The immune system is quite complicated and no one really knows exactly how it functions and yet brand new babies are guinea pigs for this unnecessary vaccine.That’s right; your newborn is a tester as no studies have been done to prove that the vaccine is safe for a 1 day old infant, or a 6 month old for that matter. And: [http://www.commonground.ca/iss/217/cg217\_writingonthewall.shtml](http://www.commonground.ca/iss/217/cg217_writingonthewall.shtml) > [@](#): > > \*\*Swine flu vaccine scam? > > Big pharma stands to gain\*\* > WRITING ON THE WALL by Sonya Weir > > We’ve been told by the World Health Organization (WHO) that the swine flu is a pandemic and spreading rampantly, with two billion people expected to die globally in the next two years. But the numbers don’t add up. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the regular, garden-variety influenza claimed 24,000 lives during the last flu season. Yet, in what it is citing as a pandemic, WHO has attributed the swine flu with 700 to 800 deaths worldwide to date (as of Common Ground’s press date July 29). Pandemic? It’s difficult to understand the logic until one pays attention to the underlying motives. > > Who stands to gain from the H1N1 virus? Well, some researchers are raising questions. Dr. Tom Jefferson in the UK claims that the search for a vaccine is driven by vested interests, including academics, governments, the WHO and drug companies, who all stand to gain. “By declaring pandemic, they’ve pushed the button on this juggernaut that they’ve created and, of course, antivirals are a part of that and vaccines are part of that and the whole panoply is part of that. Let’s act with a little bit of caution and common sense and let’s look at the evidence, the hard evidence,” Jefferson says. > > Even WHO’s assistant director-general Keiji Fukuda cautions against rushing vaccine production too soon. “There are certain things which cannot be compromised. And one of the things, which cannot be compromised, is the safety of vaccines. There can’t be any questions whether the vaccine is safe or not,” Fukuda explains. > > Pharmaceutical companies in the business of making swine flu vaccines include Baxter International, Sanofi-Aventis SA, Novartis, and GlaxoSmithKline. Jefferson notes that Glaxo will be charging about $6 per dose while it costs the company about $1 per dose to produce the vaccine. That’s a nice profit for the drug giant. When asked to comment about its profit margins, a Glaxco representative noted the company “did not recognize the figures.” > > Nothing drives Pharma better than profit. Leading UK virologist Professor John Oxford has stated quite succinctly that, in the past, the production of flu vaccines have been highly unprofitable and most companies producing such vaccines pulled out of the US a long time ago. But it looks like for Pharma, the H1N1 virus is turning out to be a real pig for profit. There are more examples than I can post here. Yet, dispite all the evidence you want me to roll up my sleeve and play guinea pig for whatever Big Pharma wishes to inject into my arm? As to what many vaccines contain, here is another list that you may be interested in looking at: > [@](#): > > Acel-Immune DTaP - Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis Wyeth-Ayerst 800.934.5556 > > - diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis adsorbed, formaldehyde, aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate, thimerosal, and polysorbate 80 (Tween-80) gelatin Act HIB > > Haemophilus - Influenza B Connaught Laboratories 800.822.2463 > > - Haemophilus influenza Type B, polyribosylribitol phosphate ammonium sulfate, formalin, and sucrose > > Attenuvax - Measles Merck & Co., Inc. 800-672-6372 > > - measles live virus neomycin sorbitol hydrolized gelatin, chick embryo > > Biavax - Rubella Merck & Co., Inc. 800-672-6372 > > - rubella live virus neomycin sorbitol hydrolized gelatin, human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue > > BioThrax - Anthrax Adsorbed BioPort Corporation 517.327.1500 > > - nonencapsulated strain of Bacillus anthracis aluminum hydroxide, benzethonium chloride, and formaldehyde > > DPT - Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis GlaxoSmithKline 800.366.8900 x5231 > > - diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis adsorbed, formaldehyde, aluminum phosphate, ammonium sulfate, and thimerosal, washed sheep RBCs > > Dryvax - Smallpox (not licensed d/t expiration) Wyeth-Ayerst 800.934.5556 > > - live vaccinia virus, with “some microbial contaminants,” according to the Working Group on Civilian Biodefense polymyxcin B sulfate, streptomycin sulfate, chlortetracycline hydrochloride, and neomycin sulfate glycerin, and phenol -a compound obtained by distillation of coal tar vesicle fluid from calf skins Engerix-B > > Recombinant Hepatitis B GlaxoSmithKline 800.366.8900 x5231 > > - genetic sequence of the hepatitis B virus that codes for the surface antigen (HbSAg), cloned into GMO yeast, aluminum hydroxide, and thimerosal > > Fluvirin Medeva Pharmaceuticals 888.MEDEVA 716.274.5300 > > - influenza virus, neomycin, polymyxin, beta-propiolactone, chick embryonic fluid > > FluShield Wyeth-Ayerst 800.934.5556 > > - trivalent influenza virus, types A&B gentamicin sulphate formadehyde, thimerosal, and polysorbate 80 (Tween-80) chick embryonic fluid > > Havrix - Hepatitis A GlaxoSmithKline 800.366.8900 x5231 > > - hepatitis A virus, formalin, aluminum hydroxide, 2-phenoxyethanol, and polysorbate 20 residual MRC5 proteins -human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue > > HiB Titer - Haemophilus Influenza B Wyeth-Ayerst 800.934.5556 > > - haemophilus influenza B, polyribosylribitol phosphate, yeast, ammonium sulfate, thimerosal, and chemically defined yeast-based medium > > Imovax Connaught Laboratories 800.822.2463 > > - rabies virus adsorbed, neomycin sulfate, phenol, red indicator human albumin, human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue > > IPOL Connaught Laboratories 800.822.2463 > > - 3 types of polio viruses neomycin, streptomycin, and polymyxin B formaldehyde, and 2-phenoxyethenol continuous line of monkey kidney cells > > JE-VAX - Japanese Ancephalitis Aventis Pasteur USA 800.VACCINE > > - Nakayama-NIH strain of Japanese encephalitis virus, inactivated formaldehyde, polysorbate 80 (Tween-80), and thimerosal mouse serum proteins, and gelatin > > LYMErix - Lyme GlaxoSmithKline 888-825-5249 > > - recombinant protein (OspA) from the outer surface of the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi kanamycin aluminum hydroxide, 2-phenoxyethenol, phosphate buffered saline > > MMR - Measles-Mumps-Rubella Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372 > > - measles, mumps, rubella live virus, neomycin sorbitol, hydrolized gelatin, chick embryonic fluid, and human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue > > M-R-Vax - Measles-Rubella Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372 > > - measles, rubella live virus neomycin sorbitol hydrolized gelatin, chick embryonic fluid, and human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue > > Menomune - Meningococcal Connaught Laboratories 800.822.2463 > > - freeze-dried polysaccharide antigens from Neisseria meningitidis bacteria, thimerosal, and lactose > > Meruvax I - Mumps Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372 > > - mumps live virus neomycin sorbitol hydrolized gelatin > > NYVAC - (new smallpox batch, not licensed) Aventis Pasteur USA 800.VACCINE > > - highly-attenuated vaccinia virus, polymyxcin B, sulfate, streptomycin sulfate, chlortetracycline hydrochloride, and neomycin sulfate glycerin, and phenol -a compound obtained by distillation of coal tar vesicle fluid from calf skins > > Orimune - Oral Polio Wyeth-Ayerst 800.934.5556 > > - 3 types of polio viruses, attenuated neomycin, streptomycin sorbitol monkey kidney cells and calf serum > > Pneumovax - Streptococcus Pneumoniae Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372 > > - capsular polysaccharides from polyvalent (23 types), pneumococcal bacteria, phenol, > > Prevnar Pneumococcal - 7-Valent Conjugate Vaccine Wyeth Lederle 800.934.5556 > > - saccharides from capsular Streptococcus pneumoniae antigens (7 serotypes) individually conjugated to diphtheria CRM 197 protein aluminum phosphate, ammonium sulfate, soy protein, yeast > > RabAvert - Rabies Chiron Behring GmbH & Company 510.655.8729 > > - fixed-virus strain, Flury LEP neomycin, chlortetracycline, and amphotericin B, potassium glutamate, and sucrose human albumin, bovine gelatin and serum “from source countries known to be free of bovine spongioform encephalopathy,” and chicken protein > > Rabies Vaccine Adsorbed GlaxoSmithKline 800.366.8900 x5231 > \*rabies virus adsorbed, beta-propiolactone, aluminum phosphate, thimerosal, and phenol, red rhesus monkey fetal lung cells > > Recombivax - Recombinant Hepatitis B Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372 > > - genetic sequence of the hepatitis B virus that codes for the surface antigen (HbSAg), cloned into GMO yeast, aluminum hydroxide, and thimerosal > > RotaShield - Oral Tetravalent Rotavirus (recalled) Wyeth-Ayerst 800.934.5556 > > - 1 rhesus monkey rotavirus, 3 rhesus-human reassortant live viruses neomycin sulfate, amphotericin B potassium monophosphate, potassium diphosphate, sucrose, and monosodium glutamate (MSG) rhesus monkey fetal diploid cells, and bovine fetal serum smallpox (not licensed due to expiration) > > 40-yr old stuff “found” in Swiftwater, PA freezer Aventis Pasteur USA 800.VACCINE > > - live vaccinia virus, with “some microbial contaminants,” according to the Working Group on Civilian Biodefense polymyxcin B sulfate, streptomycin sulfate, chlortetracycline hydrochloride, and neomycin sulfate glycerin, and phenol -a compound obtained by distillation of coal tar vesicle fluid from calf skins > > Smallpox (new, not licensed) Acambis, Inc. 617.494.1339 in partnership with Baxter BioScience > > - highly-attenuated vaccinia virus, polymyxcin B sulfate, streptomycin sulfate, chlortetracycline hydrochloride, and neomycin sulfate glycerin, and phenol -a compound obtained by distillation of coal tar vesicle fluid from calf skins > > TheraCys BCG (intravesicle -not licensed in US for tuberculosis) Aventis Pasteur USA 800.VACCINE > > - live attenuated strain of Mycobacterium bovis monosodium glutamate (MSG), and polysorbate 80 (Tween-80) > > Tripedia - Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis Aventis Pasteur USA 800.VACCINE > \*Corynebacterium diphtheriae and Clostridium tetani toxoids and acellular Bordetella pertussis adsorbed aluminum potassium sulfate, formaldehyde, thimerosal, and polysorbate 80 (Tween-80) gelatin, bovine extract > > US-sourced Typhim Vi - Typhoid Aventis Pasteur USA SA 800.VACCINE > > - cell surface Vi polysaccharide from Salmonella typhi Ty2 strain, aspartame, phenol, and polydimethylsiloxane (silicone) > > Varivax - Chickenpox Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372 > > - varicella live virus neomycin phosphate, sucrose, and monosodium glutamate (MSG) processed gelatin, fetal bovine serum, guinea pig embryo cells, albumin from human blood, and human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue > > YF-VAX - Yellow Fever Aventis Pasteur USA 800.VACCINE > > - 17D strain of yellow fever virus sorbitol chick embryo, and gelatin Do you understand that many people, like myself, would rather stay healthy and put good things into my body and risk disease than put tons of poisons into my body to theoretically prevent a disease that I am highly unlikely to ever get? What sense does that make? If you stay healthy, there is no reason to fear the occasional illness that may crop up. A person, such as myself will have a healthy immune system and be able to fight infections through natural immunity. If you cannot at least respect this perspective you must be completely blinded by propaganda. Do you acknowledge that ANY of these vaccinations are ill conceived and unnecessary? At what point would you start thinking for yourself and not allow yourself to sit idly by allowing anyone in a white jacket to stick anything into your arm? Some vaccines are necessary. But many are a scam, as I have proved. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/718 "2010-09-07T01:32:23Z")
[quote=“Mr.Miskatonic, post:659, topic:550784”] > [@jrodefeld](#): > > Even though you list is a complete lie. Gotcha. > > Hysterics and well-poisoning. > > Excuse me? “likely to never get”? That is just sickening. > > Won’t work - and by refusing vaccines in favor of your own egotism you reduce the herd immunity and that puts many folks at risk. This is just about you. > > There isn’t. To date the primary problem with vaccines has been allergic reactions -which are outnumbered by disease cases on the orders of hundreds or thousands to one. People with such allergens are even more dependent on her immunity which you selfishly choose to not participate. I have said all I want to say about vaccinations. I want to refocus this debate. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/719 "2010-09-07T01:38:58Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > As it stands, you are simply an ignorant jack off running your mouth about matters you know nothing about. > > > > Do some work and learn a thing or two about the man before you criticize him. > > I’d watch out with the insults. They don’t bother me, but you will get banned eventually. > > I know more about economics than you do. This is a fact. You know more about _pretend-fantasy economics_. Your knowledge of _pretend-fantasy economics_ is vast and commendable. But ultimately as useless as Skald the Rhymer’s knowledge of the Lord of the Rings. > > You are a fan of a fiction that makes you happy, in that I am glad you have it. But the things you are arguing are as fanciful and imaginary as hobbits and giant eagles. I’m sorry to play Gollum to your ring finger, but it had to be said. You’ve been shown dozens of times in this very thread that the things you are arguing for are not true. Why don’t you address those things instead of offering out reading assignments. > > If you actually understand what you read, you should be able to paraphrase it. Make your own arguments. Wow, really? It is a **FACT** that you know more about economics than I do? So far I have demonstrated a substantial grasp of economic theories and have written extensively on the subject here and in other threads. I haven’t seen ANYTHING by you that would lead me to believe that you know anything about any school of economic thought. If you saw my bookshelf you would see dozens of examples of challenging economic literature that I have read and understood. I can defeat a Keynesian in argumentation without breaking a sweat. The arguments are so easy to defeat through logic and deductive reasoning. But, go ahead and lay out your economic influences and your defenses and critiques of the Obama economic policies. Tell me about the Federal Reserve and Fractional Reserve Banking. Display some evidence that you understand these issues. It seems most of you are content to yap on about my writings being “too long” (presumably to not have to actually read and comprehend my arguments) or harping on whether or not there is a sufficient number of black people at Tea Party rallies to take them seriously. Silly, unimportant stuff. But if you are better than that I welcome your serious views on economics. Don’t be afraid to write in depth and explore complex economic theories and subjects. I will debate all comers. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/720 "2010-09-07T01:48:58Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Very elderly people can die from the flu, but if I get the flu it is no big deal. You have repeatedly made this wholly false assertion, but that only demonstrates that you really have no idea what you are talking about. The millions who died in 1918 and 1919 were hardly all elderly. Influenza is quite capable of killing younger people. Each strain is a bit different and the morbidity for each differs from year to year, (which is why the CDC does not encourage all people to get every flu shot each year and they are not mandatory, despite your implied claims), but a lot of young people die from it. Anecdotally, every person I have ever known to have died from influenza was between the ages of 20 and 40. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > Some vaccines are necessary. But many are a scam, as I have proved. Your self-assessment of what you have “proved” is ludicrous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=37)