# This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784 "2010-08-19T20:08:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/721 "2010-09-07T01:50:40Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Well, at least you admit it. As long as you acknowledge that the government and policies you pursue are totally contrary to the beliefs and desires of the founding fathers, you will have some credibility. > > > > Would you support amending the Constitution to allow the federal government to do the things it currently does, keeping the restrictions that the founders desired? > > > > Or would you rather we disposed of the Constitution entirely? > > > > If you answered the latter then you would be far more honest than most politicians who feed us this bullshit about how they are following the Constitution and respect the founders. > > > > At least be honest about it. > > We are living in accordance with the constitution now. At least that’s what the SCOTUS thinks. And I suspect they understand the issue better than you. No actually they don’t. I like to defer to the AUTHORS of the document. I consider them a little more trustworthy than some activist that is a corporate crony, no better than a lawyer who finds a “legal” way to get a murderer off the hook. The Constitution is simple enough that we can all read it and understand it. And we can and should respect the original intent. If you believe it should serve as an arbitrary limit on government and a protector of the peoples rights, then our current government does not reflect this. You seem to endorse the school of thought that believes in the Constitution as a “living document”, essentially rendering it meaningless. As Thomas Jefferson said: \*\*“Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction.” \*\* –Thomas Jefferson to Wilson Nicholas, 1803. ME 10:419 We have made our Constitution a blank paper by construction, rendering it meaningless. What is left to protect the peoples liberties? We should enforce it vigorously and allow the FEDERAL government to do only the expressly delegated functions. Over time we need to amend the Constitution as we did by freeing the slaves and allowing women to vote. Our constitution was designed to change and adapt over time. It was NOT designed to be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/722 "2010-09-07T01:52:39Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Why do you think it is even necessary to artificially prevent ALL disease through vaccination? Why should I be afraid of the Flu, Chicken Pox, or any other number of fairly harmless illness that people have gotten for centuries with no lingering ill effects? > > Oh, you mean like Pertussis, which just killed some kids - no biggie, right? Not like you knew 'em or anything, or the thousands who have suffered with whooping cough. > > OK, that does it. TELL ME HOW GETTING POLIO MAKES OUR IMMUNE SYSTEMS STRONGER. GO ON, TELL ME! > > Tell me how getting smallpox makes us stronger? > Tell us how becoming deaf from having the mumps makes us stronger, the possible development of encephalitis or meningitis makes us stronger? > Tell us how dying of the flu makes us stronger. > Tell us how coughing for 24 hours straight (and sometimes dying) from whooping cough makes us ‘stronger’ > > Go on, tell us! > > Bullshit. Your defenses are always vulnerable to diseases and virii unless you had exposure. The graveyards have been filled with perfectly healthy babies whose immune systems were fine - the disease didn’t give a damn. > > Your body isn’t a fucking WoW character, it won’t ‘level up’ from doing exercises. > > > [@](#): > > > > Did you know that a fairly high number of vaccinations actually CAUSE the disease they are meant to prevent? > > Bullshit - total excrement and deception taken from the lowest depths of the anti-vax liars bin. No use in trying to convince you so I won’t bother. I simply hope you visit the links I have posted on the subject and open your mind up to the possibility of ill effects coming from over vaccinations of children. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/723 "2010-09-07T01:59:49Z")
Nobody else on this? Alright then. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > And I am not Anti Vaccine. I only understand the politics of the FDA and the way our government and medical system work. The truth is people will be given vaccinations they don’t need and some which are not sufficiently tested. Wrong. Vaccines are tested and retested. > [@](#): > > And there are growing reports of people getting the disease FROM the vaccine. This is simply not true. The only cases where this happens are with the few remaining Polio cases in the world, and the conditions for that are grossly exagerrated by the anti-vax crowd. > [@](#): > > During the original swine flu “epidemic” in the 70s more people died from the vaccine than from the swine flu itself. I find it amusing that you have to reach back over 34 years to find a problem and then claim (after the h1N1 vaccine needed to be used again - almost without any surprise incidents) that not enough research is done on them. > [@](#): > > But I suppose you support vaccinated against a bullshit “epidemic” that is not truly pose a threat? Ah yes, we didn’t all fall dead in the streets so the epidemic was bullshit. Never mind the hundreds of dead and thousands hospitalized in Mexico - that is just bullshit, right? > [@](#): > > The scientific principle of immunization is sound. I am not disputing this. By introducing a small amount of a virus a persons body can be induced to build up an immunity. Fine, great. So far, so good. > [@](#): > > Our body does this naturally, as well. Not without stimulous it doesn’t. Without vaccines that means you have to catch the disease or be one of the few very rare who are naturally immune. The former is often deadly, and folks depending on the latter have filled graveyards. > [@](#): > > There are cases where vaccinations are wise and necessary. > > The problem I have is the adjuvents and other poisons found in vaccinations. Mercury, formaldehyde and many other known neurotoxins are found in provably harmful quantities in many vaccines. Lie. Mercury has been removed for vaccines for ages and was in miniscule quantities to begin with. Standing next to someone changing his contact lenses or eating a fish would get your more mercury. > [@](#): > > Therefore I am arguing that we exercise caution when pursuing this trend of vaccinating our children in increasingly large numbers when we don’t know the long term effects of huge doses of mercury and poisonous adjuvents on the developing body. Actually, at this point we do. > [@](#): > > There are MANY doctors who share my concerns. I guess you will simply call me a quack for voicing my sensible concerns and put your head back in the sand. In any profession there are always going to be cranks. More to the point what have your doctors produced beyond some quotes and the utterly discredited and cruel Wakefield ‘study’? > [@](#): > > Don’t you pay attention to the number of harmful prescription drugs that are recalled every year? And they were all approved by the FDA. It is called ‘oversight’. Given the amount of medications on the market it is very low. Vaccines are also in a different category than Rx perscription meds. > [@](#): > > Why trust these people? Oh, gee, I dunno, because their actions have ended smallpox, which had a 1/2 billion corpses to its name, and polio, and hordes of other diseases. > [@](#): > > If I oppose taking a lot of potentially harmful prescription drugs, it doesn’t mean I dispute the value of having drugs available for certain people. And yet you smear some very good medications simply on rumor, misinformation, and fear mongering. You have provided nothing solid, and the biggest complaints you have are based on lies or are grossly outdated. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/724 "2010-09-07T02:00:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > You are too busy feeling superior to everyone else, sufficiently happy to dismiss out of hand all contrary information and disputes. > > I need a new irony meter. 😃 Fair enough. I can see how you consider this a case of the pot calling the kettle black. But I do engage with the issues and address the points directly without deliberate obfuscation, as some other posters do. I just hope more engage directly on a substantial level, rather than dealing with this petty bullshit and so many are focusing on. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/725 "2010-09-07T02:07:49Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > No use in trying to convince you so I won’t bother. Way to dodge the questions. > [@](#): > > I simply hope you visit the links I have posted on the subject and open your mind up to the possibility of ill effects coming from over vaccinations of children. Sorry, but your links just went to a bunch of hysterical lies told by anti-vax murderers. Fear-mongering without a shred of evidence doesn’t impress me. Did you, in turn, even look at the real cases I brought up? Such as the ones to the CA outbreak of pertussis that has killed 8 children thus far and caused by declining vaccination rates? Any answer for that or just more grumping about ‘No use’? How about when anti-vaxxers decided to [harass a parents whose kids died of pertussis](http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2010/s2951651.htm). The only ‘ill effects’ are coming from anti-vaxers. Plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/726 "2010-09-07T02:08:24Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > I can’t convince you so I am going to stop talking about why I personally have found more success in healthy living and a reliance on Eastern Medicine. > > You cannot convince me because you have nothing to convince me with. You are trying to imply that I am closed minded to cover for a complete lack of evidence. If you had anything worthwhile I’d be listening, but after decades, if not centuries there is nothing to alternative meds besides anecdotes. > > > [@](#): > > > > It is hardly relevant to the topic at hand. If you want to believe in everything from Western Medicine, be my guest. Knock yourself out. > > Western medicine is far from perfect, it has large gaps and needs lots of work to make decisions. But it is far better than the ‘make shit up’ schools that alternative medicines work with. > > You have only yourself as an example, that doesn’t come up to the reality of alt meds failing on all levels. > > [http://whatstheharm.net/](http://whatstheharm.net/) Look, there is quite a bit of scientific evidence to support alternative medical approaches (some more than others). Oftentimes an agency with an agenda will dismiss the evidence that exists, so people like you don’t hear about it. Western medicine is very good at some things. But I don’t believe the way to true health is through surgery and drugs, which are the primary modalities that are used. To find true health I have found that Eastern medicine and diet and even spirituality come into play. You may simply have not been exposed to the complexities of many eastern schools of medicine, so you are speaking out of ignorance. How can you claim that alternative medicine “fails” on all levels? What do you base that on? Sometimes the subjective experience and resulting health of the patients is much more important than some arbitrary study that meets some criteria in peer reviewed journals (much of this stuff HAS been validated in double blind studies, by the way). There IS a lot of bullshit out there too. There is no question about that. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/727 "2010-09-07T02:16:05Z")
I would like to drop the antivax nonsense. But the hits just keep on coming. [QUOTE=jrodefeld] If you stay healthy, there is no reason to fear the occasional illness that may crop up. A person, such as myself will have a healthy immune system and be able to fight infections through natural immunity. [/QUOTE] In addition to the WWI-era influenza example that **tomndebb** supplied (in which many young healthy adults died), there’s our very recent experience with H1N1 flu that [contradicts your blithe assumption](http://www.emaxhealth.com/1020/90/34098/h1n1-causing-critical-illness-mostly-young-adults.html) that being young and healthy will ward off infectious disease. \*"A review of H1N1 flu shows that the virus is causing critical illness mostly in young adults. H1N1 flu in young adults is associated with low levels of oxygen, multi-system organ failure, and the need for longer prolonged respiratory support with mechanical ventilation. The findings are due for publication November 4 in JAMA, and show that **H1N1 flu is especially severe among healthy adolescents and adults between the ages of 10 and 60 years**. \*(bolding added). _The authors write that H1N1 flu follows”… a pattern reminiscent of the W-shaped curve [rise and fall in the population mortality rate for the disease, corresponding to age at death] previously seen only during the 1918 H1N1 Spanish pandemic."_ So the H1N1 outbreak is just one demonstration it’s not just the feeble elderly getting extremely sick and dying from preventable infectious disease, but in particular younger previously healthy adults were stricken badly by this form of the disease. And in the case of other vaccine-preventable diseases similar populations can experience nasty consequences, not just kids (for example, I’m sure **jrodefeld** would not enjoy a nice case of mumps or chickenpox). Yo, **jrodefeld**! Is any of this getting through, or are you just dismissing it as “propaganda” while getting the real deal from fellow antivaxers at those sites you linked to? > [@jrodefeld](#): > > But I don’t believe the way to true health is through surgery and drugs, which are the primary modalities that are used. This is another misconception gained by getting all your info from alt med sites and practitioners. Diet and exercise are a major focus in mainstream medicine. It’s when people don’t follow advice in these areas that pharmacologic therapy and other modalities come into play. Attempts by alt med to co-opt diet (with a plethora of “super” supplements, “miracle” foods and other bad recommendations) don’t change the facts. This thread demonstrates that many other posters have taken the time and trouble to answer (and refute) the arguments **jrodefeld** has raised. He, on the other hand, merely repeats himself and calls us close-minded. **jrodefeld** is apparently afraid to do the reading that would overturn his cherished views. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/728 "2010-09-07T02:18:36Z")
> [@Who\_me\_1](#): > > “The thing that separates the American Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather die on his feet, than live on his knees!” > > Is incorrect, it’s > > “It’s better to die upon your feet than to live upon your knees” > > By Zapata… the only sites saying George said it are a number of political ones. > > Do you ever actually fact check anything? I have seen that quote attributed to George Washington over and over and over again. It is true that a number of quotes have been mis-attributed and I make an effort to check everything I post, but I do make some mistakes. If I make an error you are certainly within your rights to correct me. But sometimes you miss the forest for the trees. Whether it was Zapata or George Washington it is a very good libertarian quote. But try to see the big picture of what I am saying. I don’t know that you are correct, but there are many reputable websites claiming Washington said this, so “fact checking” is made more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/729 "2010-09-07T02:21:12Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > You were saying that it is inconsistent for a libertarian to oppose vaccinations in schools because people are “free” to home school their kids. I said most people don’t have that choice, and you claim that is inconsistent with libertarianism, implying that libertarians don’t believe in public schools. > > I have implied no such thing. You stated you are entitled to send your unvaccinated children to public schools, because it is too inconvenient to home school them. That is what is inconsistent with libertarianism; your sense of entitlement, and unwillingness to accept personal responsibility for the consequences of your actions. Disgraceful. My main point was about psychotropic drugs, not vaccinations. You really don’t have a problem with schools drugging normal kids because they don’t want to deal with normal childhood behavior? I have a problem with this. You apparently do not. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/730 "2010-09-07T02:25:15Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > I love that these two quotes showed up in the same post. > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > As to that 99% of doctors statistic you just pulled out of your ass, you would do well to read… > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Did you know that a fairly high number of vaccinations actually CAUSE the disease they are meant to prevent? “fairly high number” is not specific nor was it meant to be. I could have said “some”, would that have made you happy? There is overwhelming evidence for this, and at least if you are honest you should be concerned about that. There are no statistics kept about the problems CAUSED by vaccinations giving us a false sense of security. Read this: > [@](#): > > We all know of someone who took the flu shot and got the flu or who took the mumps shot and got the mumps (even if the doctor called it mumps-like disease). The whole process of vaccination is a delicate balancing act between getting the disease and fighting off the disease. The risks-to- benefit ratio are low in vaccines for we are risking our immunity to one innocuous disease for the risk of getting another disease, usually a far worse disease. The trade is not a fair one. When vaccinations do cause the very disease they should have prevented, the name of the disease is changed to protect the vaccine … after all how could anyone possibly get a disease for which they are already vaccinated for (or against, I get confused). That is assuming that vaccines equal (=) immunity, which they don’t. > If a child comes down with a disease after being vaccinated, the doctor assumes that it cannot be that disease for which the vaccine was given. We see constant references to diseases called “measles-like”, “mumps-like”, “secondary-measles” or “atypical measles”, and “atypical mumps”. Or they might change the name altogether from infantile paralysis to aseptic meningitis … the symptoms are the same. Then there is just the plain generic increases in diseases - in general - after vaccinations are given for no particular reason, just coincidence. > Hiner found that children vaccinated for HiB had a higher proportion of cases within two months of vaccination. Olin, Romanus and Storsaeter (1988) reported an increase in the clustering of invasive bacterial infections with fatal outcome among vaccinated children as compared to the unvaccinated children. It appeared that there was an immuno-suppressive effect due to the vaccines, which could not easily be explained by their clinical studies. Osterholm, MT, et al (1988) also stated that “Our results indicate that vaccination with Haemophilus b Polysacharide vaccine had no effect in preventing H influenzae type b disease in Minnesota children.” Storsaeter et al (1988) reported that “four vaccinated children died” after receiving an a cellular pertussis vaccine in Sweden, when “one death was expected among vaccinated children”. It is appalling that they expected one child to die from the vaccine, but they still declare that the vaccine was safe. > Pro-vaccination physicians will go to great lengths to call a vaccine-induced disease by another name. They will swear that the vaccine did not cause the problem, but that it was purely coincidental. They use terms that sound like the actual disease, but are different; like BCG-itis, Atypical Mumps, Measles-like disorder, Atypical measles. > All this does it confuse the issue, because the patient knows that the symptoms are exactly the same in each disease, whether caused by the vaccine or the virus (naturally). But to a logical thinking person, the virus is in the vaccine and in many cases the vaccines contain live virus, not killed or attenuated in any way, i.e., measles virus vaccines. So to cloud the issue with name changing does not benefit anyone or make the condition go away. The vaccine that caused the problem needs to be addressed for the victim/patient’s sake. After all, they came to the physician to get better health … right! There are numerous examples of this. Don’t dismiss it. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/731 "2010-09-07T02:28:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It’s like listening to **curlcoat** on Red Bull. What is that supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/732 "2010-09-07T02:30:09Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Look, there is quite a bit of scientific evidence to support alternative medical approaches (some more than others). Oftentimes an agency with an agenda will dismiss the evidence that exists, so people like you don’t hear about it. Nonsense. To date any study of altmed that shows a hint of a positive result gets huge media attention. But closer examination shows shortcomings or failures and it often gets filedrawered upon follow-up studies. > [@](#): > > How can you claim that alternative medicine “fails” on all levels? Because it is true. > [@](#): > > What do you base that on? The record of evidence. > [@](#): > > Sometimes the subjective experience and resulting health of the patients is much more important than some arbitrary study that meets some criteria in peer reviewed journals That is a pathetic end-run around the scientific method and is what gets people in trouble in the first place. Anecdotes and your personal experiences are simply are not serious evidence no matter how much you whine about it. > [@](#): > > (much of this stuff HAS been validated in double blind studies, by the way). No, it has not. Even the link that you provided show the bankrupcy of altmed evidence when the best they could come up with was obscure and rather dated ‘studies’. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/733 "2010-09-07T02:32:05Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Too bad this thread degenerated into this inane side discussion about vaccinations (note I, as son of a physician, am firmly on the side of same), tho the main topic isn’t much better in the end analysis. It is conceivable that somewhere a libertarian has written a thesis supporting said philosophy which sober-mindedly takes into account human behavior and tendencies, and I’d love to read it and take a chance on being convinced-but this thread ain’t it. Perhaps that means that such an airtight argument doesn’t exist (and from what I’ve read elsewhere I haven’t been terribly impressed, but you never know). I didn’t really WANT to discuss vaccinations, other posters dragged up the issue and I responded. I would like to discuss the economy and libertarian philosophy. By the way, you will not be convinced by listening to me. You should read von Mises, Ron Paul and other libertarian books to get a firm grasp of the philosophy. You may not be convinced, but you will gain newfound respect and admiration for the deep thinkers and philosophers of liberty. I highly recommend the effort. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/734 "2010-09-07T02:33:05Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > [QUOTE=jrodefeld] > I have to pay taxes to support things I think are immoral. My economic activity is SEVERELY compromised. > > Isn’t this worrisome to you AT ALL? I’ve had to pay taxes to support _your_ health and welfare so that you may promote things I think are immoral. It’s a minor source of :rolleyes: but I can live with it. It’s better than living in a society where it’s everyone for himself and homeopaths stalk the Earth unfettered. [/QUOTE] You are not really addressing the main point I made in that post. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/735 "2010-09-07T02:34:06Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > \*\* > > If you got success from any treatment, you would become a believer. Period. \*\* > > > > You are simply displaying your close mindedness. > > > > Why do you think homeopathy and various alternative therapies have lasted so long? How are so many quacks and charlatans getting away with this stuff for so long? > > > > We can disagree on the various merits of vaccinations and homeopathy, but any learned person will not be able to dispute the teachings of Austrian economics and Constitutional Law, both of which I am extremely educated. > > bolding mine… > > Only a fucking moron could possibly believe this. > Failure to understand causation, correlation, and coincidence makes you a fucking moron. I am not talking about vaccinations anymore. Everyone, SHUT UP about this issue. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/736 "2010-09-07T02:42:08Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > > [@Dob](#): > > > > The Tea Party is in reaction to the president being black, with him being a democrat second. > > … > > So spare me the long winded and rambling paragraphs and just deal with the real issues. > > I’ll call bullshit on that. The color of Obama’s skin is meaningless. The real issue is that he is a Marxist. I agree that the point is bullshit and the presidents skin color is meaningless, but I wouldn’t call Obama a Marxist. I don’t know your political views, Clothahump, but we should call Obama a Corporate puppet, doing the bidding of his banking masters and the military industrial complex. I doubt he really has any solid views or convictions other than looking good for the camera. He is an actor hired to play a part in my view. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/737 "2010-09-07T02:44:21Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Bill Walker wrote a short article about this problem. Here is an excerpt: > > Well, hell, let’s just put a dollar in the bank (or a fraction of an ounce of gold). Over the infinite horizon the interest alone will dwarf $100 trillion. You are completely missing the point. I agree “over the infinite horizen” is a bad way to phrase the issue. But people are really talking about a forty to fifty year period. That is all. Our dollar won’t last that long. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/738 "2010-09-07T02:47:14Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > I am not talking about vaccinations anymore. Everyone, SHUT UP about this issue. Maybe it might drop if you didn’t keep trying to get in ‘the last word’ such as with the propaganda you posted in 730. You keep saying you want to drop it and then plop another load of anti-vax propaganda in the thread. Then you whine when people reply to it and say you want to drop the issue and then plop another load of anti-vax propaganda in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/739 "2010-09-07T02:49:50Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > This > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > I know about herd immunity and understand very well the concept of immunizations. > > and this > > are not compatible. How? People can be vaccinated and receive homeopathy at the same time. Why would you believe the government should limit access to a medical treatment than you don’t approve of? What about personal freedom? > [@](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Why should I be afraid of the Flu, Chicken Pox, or any other number of fairly harmless illness that people have gotten for centuries with no lingering ill effects? > > Chicken Pox can cause death, especially in infants and pregnant women. And as for the Flu: > > Asiatic (Russian) Flu: 1889-1890 > > 1,000,000 dead > > Spanish Flu: 1918-1920 > 50,000,000 dead > Asian Flu: 1957-1958 > 2,000,000 dead > Hong Kong Flu: 1968-1969 > 1,000,000 dead > Swine Flu: 2009-August, 2010 > 18,209 dead > Guess which one of those there was a vaccine for? NOT AMONG HEALTHY PEOPLE! Healthy people do not die of the flu. There was a swine flu vaccine because people were made to be hysterical about a non event. No healthy person died from the swine flu. This was a racket. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/740 "2010-09-07T02:51:55Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@zoid](#): > > > > bolding mine… > > > > Only a fucking moron could possibly believe this. > > Failure to understand causation, correlation, and coincidence makes you a fucking moron. > > I am not talking about vaccinations anymore. Everyone, SHUT UP about this issue. I’d want to walk away from talking about vaccinations too if I were you. It doesn’t do much for your credibility. It kinda makes you look like don’t really look into things very well and believe crazy conspiracy theories. I’d probably stop talking about Homeopathy too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=38)