# This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784 "2010-08-19T20:08:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/61 "2010-08-19T21:31:37Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > There, you see, that was almost an OP that people would actually respond to. Writing a wall of random text doesn’t make your argument strong. > > Its not random. You are all doing everything possible not to actually try to understand what I wrote. My argument is incredibly strong, if you would actually take the time to read what I wrote. No. When you can make your point(note the singular, please) in one paragraph, We’ll have something to discuss. In the meantime, I’ll be _damned_ if I’m going to bother slogging through your random unsubstantiated meanderings while you sit on your lofty perch and preach at us. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/62 "2010-08-19T21:34:54Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > There, you see, that was almost an OP that people would actually respond to. Writing a wall of random text doesn’t make your argument strong. > > Its not random. You are all doing everything possible not to actually try to understand what I wrote. My argument is incredibly strong, if you would actually take the time to read what I wrote. And yet you utterly destroyed it by packaging it in a screed that 1) fairly _screams_ “don’t read me”, and 2) which can’t be coherently be debated on a message board, for reasons explained previously by others. It’s kind of a shame, really, or would be if I actually believed your assertion that there’s a strong argument in there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/63 "2010-08-19T21:39:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Good luck getting much of anyone to slog through all that. Although just skimming shows that it’s libertarian which puts it firmly on the “stupid and evil” end of the political spectrum. Especially with Austrian economics thrown into the mix, which is archaic garbage for reasons that have been detailed in your other threads. There you are, Der Trihs. I don’t know if you saw, but originally this thread was dedicated specifically to you, but the moderators thought that was inappropriate and immediately locked it. Therefore I was forced to make it more general in nature. The reason I originally singled you out was that your comments tend to be astonishingly ignorant and ill informed. You never read the posts, you respond with garbage like “libertarianism is automatically on the stupid and evil end of the political spectrum”. I am truly curious to find out what made you think the things you do. I have a few questions for you: 1. What tv stations and newspapers do you get your news from? What websites (other than this one) do you visit? 2. Where did you go to school? Do you have any degrees? 3. In your own words what motivates you to be a liberal or “progressive” rather than Independent, Conservative, Libertarian, etc? The reason I am asking this is that, although there are many members on these boards that I disagree with, you have a way of redefining the term “ignorance” in my mind. If there was anyone who needs a reeducation, it would be you. So, for your own sake, go back and carefully read my post thoroughly and absorb the lessons I provided for you. Then come back and, with some effort and thought, tell me where I go wrong. If you do this, I will take back what I have said and gain greater respect for you. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/64 "2010-08-19T21:40:19Z")
The tri-part OP is the kind of thing that people get _paid_ to analyze. I’m just here to shoot my mouth off for free. No thanks. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/65 "2010-08-19T21:42:47Z")
An opportunity to gain your inestimable respect? Gasp! \*\* DT\*\*, c’mon, guy, the chance of a lifetime! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/66 "2010-08-19T21:43:16Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Its not random. You are all doing everything possible not to actually try to understand what I wrote. My argument is incredibly strong, if you would actually take the time to read what I wrote. No, your argument, to the extent you have one, is weak. And timid. It is a little, crying girl on a field of angry, savage men. Men who are chock full of steroids, trained for aggression and indoctrinated in a cult whose only theology is hate. Your argument is being run under their cleats and can only manage gurgles as their powerful calves push her into the turf. And on the sidelines, you wave your pennant and cheer. But she’s already dead. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/67 "2010-08-19T21:53:53Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > 1. I was hoping that those who support Obama and are committed liberals would address the critique I have made of their ideology in how in affects the poor and its relationship to fiscal reality. There are actually a few possible points of discussion. Cutting spending vs big government progressivism. Question: why can’t the government cut spending and be progressive? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/68 "2010-08-19T21:54:38Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > What does that mean? I have thoroughly read Austrian literature and I am convinced that it is superior to Keynesian theories. Many others think the same, that is why it is experiencing a resurgence in popularity. > > > > If you have real criticisms, I can address them. > > Folks just did this: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=570446&highlight=austrian](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=570446&highlight=austrian) There is a lot in that thread. There are a lot of mis assumptions about Austrian economics. I don’t want to read about what other people have written about Austrian economics, I want to hear the problems _you_ have with Austrian economics. The problem is not one of debating various complex economic models and theories about aggregate demand, etc. The main point I am making and the reason I am an Austrian is the following: 1. The Federal Reserve is an inherently immoral institution that enriches bankers and destroys the value of our money. 2. I want a system that insures monetary restraint, so that deficits are under control, government spending is limited and the savings of the people are preserved. Did you read about the origins of the Federal Reserve system? I want you to respond to my ideas not link to someone else’s debate about Austrian economics. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/69 "2010-08-19T21:57:48Z")
> [@blanx](#): > > Where there are no conversations, just 10-12 page rants exchanged. It’s like Soviet Russia, but without the cool titles. If I have to read all that crap, I want to at least be called a member of the Politburo, or the Supreme Soviet. Is that too much to ask? Another ignorant comment. No one is asking you to agree with libertarianism. You can have a respectful debate and tell me where I go wrong in my assessment. Just give me a few examples in what I wrote that is completely wrong? Go ahead, seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/70 "2010-08-19T21:59:59Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@blanx](#): > > > > Where there are no conversations, just 10-12 page rants exchanged. It’s like Soviet Russia, but without the cool titles. If I have to read all that crap, I want to at least be called a member of the Politburo, or the Supreme Soviet. Is that too much to ask? > > Another ignorant comment. No one is asking you to agree with libertarianism. You can have a respectful debate and tell me where I go wrong in my assessment. Just give me a few examples in what I wrote that is completely wrong? > > Go ahead, seriously. A respectful debate is not made on 150 random bullet points. Craft an op that isn’t a disjointed hunk of garbage and people will take you seriously. I promise. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/71 "2010-08-19T22:01:31Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > 1. I was hoping that those who support Obama and are committed liberals would address the critique I have made of their ideology in how in affects the poor and its relationship to fiscal reality. There are actually a few possible points of discussion. Cutting spending vs big government progressivism. > > Question: why can’t the government cut spending and be progressive? Because “progressive,” as used nowadays in America, means something roughly equivalent to “social democratic” as used in Europe, i.e., something well to the left of “liberal” and well to the right of “socialist.” Not every element of a progressive agenda costs tax dollars, but some indispensable elements do. (Obama, unfortunately, is no progressive and not even much of a liberal.) ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/72 "2010-08-19T22:01:50Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > [Length isn’t strength.](http://timecube.com/) Jesus fucking Christ, enough with this bullshit. You don’t have to respond if you don’t want to. Having dozens of people not read my post, but clutter the comments with variations on “It’s too long” is completely unnecessary. I am asking for a more vigorous and intellectual type of debate and discussion from what usually goes on here. If you don’t want that, fine. If somebody responds with a long comment and many links, I will try to respond. But if you aren’t going to make the effort, don’t waste my time. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/73 "2010-08-19T22:04:42Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > The only choices we have are dealing with the pain or replacing this system with something more viable, or hyperinflation. How long until hyperinflation? Will you accept that you are wrong if your prediction does not come to pass? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/74 "2010-08-19T22:09:01Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > But if you aren’t going to make the effort, don’t waste my time. You’ve wasted the time of everyone who’s clicked on this thread. They come in expecting a logical argument. They get three pages of near gibberish with no cogent theme. Look, I want to help you, so here is some advice, free of charge. No one is going to read through all the word-salad to try and discern what your argument is. You’ve posted enough on this forum for people to associate your username with crank-wingnuttery. Write an intelligent and concise OP that covers one or two topics and you’ll get feedback. As of now, the wretched, disorganized state of what you wrote isn’t worth a response. And certainly no one is going to waste on hour on it. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/75 "2010-08-19T22:10:57Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Yeah. I usually prefer to be thorough and complete in my thought processes when I write. I understand many on these forums don’t necessarily want a serious intellectual debate. Thats fine. No one is forced to participate. > > There is plenty of good debate that happens here and I think others, even if they disagree with my views, would say I do not shy away from intellectual debate here. > > You seem to miss the format of where you are writing. This is a message board. How can people begin to tackle the issues you brought up? There are so many in such a long post it is near impossible. Best anyone can do is pick on a few and chase those down. Someone else may pick other points and so on leading to a mess of a thread that would be impossible to follow. > > Try breaking it down into distinct pieces and put those up for debate individually. You claim you want intellectual debate but nearly guaranteed you will not get it with that over-long screed. > > Simply too unwieldy to be done well here. One would think that was obvious to an intellectual such as yourself. That is a fair point. I would like to continue with the thread anyway, because I feel that some people could be willing to tackled these issues. I think my post could be summed up as: Obama Loyalists vs Grassroots Opposition. I am assuming some defenders of Obama would want to defend him and their ideology against my critique. We will see where this thing goes. I would be happy to have people simply pick out one or two issues I brought up to discuss. This thread may end up a mess, but I am okay with that. In truth, I really hope people just read what I wrote and learn something from my essay. If that happens I will consider my efforts worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/76 "2010-08-19T22:14:33Z")
I only skimmed through the OP’s blast of hot air and cliches. He obviously does not care about the unemployed and the growing income gap. I do. Tax cuts for the rich do not lead to jobs for the unemployed. We should have learned that during the disastrous presidency of George W. Bush. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/77 "2010-08-19T22:19:37Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@Bosstone](#): > > > > [Length isn’t strength.](http://timecube.com/) > > Jesus fucking Christ, enough with this bullshit. You don’t have to respond if you don’t want to. Having dozens of people not read my post, but clutter the comments with variations on “It’s too long” is completely unnecessary. > > I am asking for a more vigorous and intellectual type of debate and discussion from what usually goes on here. If you don’t want that, fine. If somebody responds with a long comment and many links, I will try to respond. > > But if you aren’t going to make the effort, don’t waste my time. You seem to be positing the assumption that posting long comments with many links is the way to engage in more vigorous and intellectual debate. This is obviously not correct - even in your optimal world you would at best generate _ponderously slow_ debate, and in real life, at _best_, you’ll get people cherry picking little bits out and arguing against them alone. It’s literally absurd to think that you’ll get what you claim to want. But that’s not the reason everyone’s replying and telling you how messed up your OP is. The reason for that is, you seem to be under the impression that if people don’t read and reply to your monster OP, that we’ve conceded the debate. Which is, of course, crazy. But you know how we are with the crazy ideas; we keep coming back and arguing against them every time. So here’s my argument against your op: when people don’t respond to that OP of yours, it doesn’t mean you win debate. It means you’ve lost it before you began - and destroyed the possibility of having the vigorous and intellectual debate you claim to desire. If you acutally _did_ desire it, you should follow the oft-repeated advice and chop the OP into bite-sized peices and debate each in its own thread, preferably not all at the same time (though a numbered series might be okay). ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/78 "2010-08-19T22:20:09Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Look, I want to help you, so here is some advice, free of charge. No one is going to read through all the word-salad to try and discern what your argument is. You’ve posted enough on this forum for people to associate your username with crank-wingnuttery. > > Write an intelligent and concise OP that covers one or two topics and you’ll get feedback. As of now, the wretched, disorganized state of what you wrote isn’t worth a response. And certainly no one is going to waste on hour on it. jrodefeld should present original arguments, and confine them to one computer screen. I wonder if any one bothered to read everything he posted. It was not worth it. Life is too short to keep hearing the nonsense of the Republican Noise Machine. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/79 "2010-08-19T22:22:28Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > The Tea Party is in reaction to the president being black, with him being a democrat second. And dont give me this crap about “i saw a black guy at a rally…”, because one person doesn’t make a race or in this case, one person doesn’t make it not about race. > > Our government spent billions running up our debt for the past 8yrs and not a peep from any tea party member. 1 yr into a black president and they wont shut up. And if it was really about fiscal responsiblity then why are so many tea parties behind republicans?? What republican in the last 50yrs have actually been about LESS spending?? Any? > > So spare me the long winded and rambling paragraphs and just deal with the real issues. The libertarians and many conservatives as well were very critical of Bush and the Republican party for many years. I believed (and still believe) that Bush was the worst President in modern history. Give me proof that the motivating factor in these protests is race. No it couldn’t be rising unemployment, bailouts for the rich, forcing people to buy health insurance, and political corruption, right? Give me a break. There is a valid criticism that people weren’t vocal enough during Republican administrations about spending. But, remember, until at least 2007, people didn’t feel we were in a recession. People felt pretty good. People have no motivation to take action when they are not hurting. Since 2008, the economic pain has been felt in very serious ways. People are understanding the level of corruption that existed all along. I am a libertarian. I have ALWAYS been about less spending and deficit reduction. Many Tea Party people are not Republicans. Republicans have actually been worse that Democrats in spending. You are right about that. My point is that this movement will transcend political boundaries by the 2012 election. How many racists do you really think there are in this country? In 2010? I strongly believe that if McCain was elected instead, there would be a similar backlash in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/80 "2010-08-19T22:23:21Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > 1. I want a system that insures monetary restraint, so that deficits are under control, government spending is limited and the savings of the people are preserved. Humor me for a moment. Let’s pretend that you’ve been elected President of the United States and you quickly push through legislation to end the Federal Reserve. Now what? What system do you put to replace Federal Reserve? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=5)