# This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784 "2010-08-19T20:08:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/861 "2010-09-09T23:46:26Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Our politicians are self serving, egotistical assholes who don’t give a fuck about society as a whole. So it’s cool to hate Ron Paul, right? The guy’s been holding public office for 34 years now, clearly he’s just another government parasite on the people. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/862 "2010-09-09T23:52:46Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > What is the motivation of people who have concerns about vaccinations? There is a lot out there. There are many people who have expressed concerns, many MDs and Phd’s. > I am trying to move away from this subject because it is a distraction from the thread, but I want to know what you think of the motivations behind those that feel there are dangerous side effects. Several things: 1. Seeking a foe to fight when you don’t have one. With many diseases cured by antibiotics and vaccines, one starts to turn on the things that made such a thing possible. Call it a form of cultural vandalism - you can see similar things going on in the more radical ‘Organic’ food movements - it is luxury to hate modern farming when it has prevented mass starvation - and many people forget that they have the luxury to think that way. 2. Classic Conspiracy thinking - There is a certain satisfaction when one thinks one ‘knows’ better then the public at large. To build up their case they overplay minor elements while ignoring the big picture. It is a way of feeling superior with a minimal amount of investment on the lower levels and in the upper ranks you get the admiration and borderline worship of the lower levels. 3. Just gross misunderstanding of how science works: Tell a person they are injecting a disease into them or their children and there is bound to be some flinch reaction. But when looked at in perspective (the disease is benign or even dead or doesn’t hurt human beings). It is easy to scare people, and you can get attention when you do so! > [@](#): > > Also, how can we be certain that new chronic health problems that have shown up in the last twenty years or so are not related to vaccinations? I am not claiming that they are but maybe there are links that are not being made. To date there is not one scrap of evidence of this whatsoever. None. Chronic health problems people face these days are a result of our lifestyle (obesity), improved diagnostics (Autism) or are a result of modern medicine letting us live longer to get problems that would be scarcely seen in days past (too many to mention). I don’t like playing ‘what-if’ games when there is no evidence that ‘if’ even happens - especially when the subject matter is a well known saver of multitudes of lives and the only reason to doubt them is based in baseless paranoia. To date the anti-vax movement has given society movement nothing but lies, corruption, misrepresentations, bullying, fearmongering, the occasional breakout of previously defeated diseases, and some dead children. They have given society nothing but baseless fears, and they haven’t even improved vaccines one iota.\* > [@](#): > > Being close minded to the notion is contrary to the scientific method. Keep an open mind. My mind **is** open, that does not mean I am going to let anti-vax liars shovel shit into it. You keep repeating this ‘open mind’ mantra as if your idea of an open mind that let’s your brain fall out and lies about vaccines come in in its place. Fact of the matter is, if anyone has a closed mind it is you: You post worthless anti-vax propaganda without even looking at it slightly, you have no idea how to think critically in the least, you ignore all criticism and spout our platitudes, make utterly baseless health claims, all the while ignoring the huge amounts of evidence to the contrary. - Removing Thimerosal from vaccines was worthless, as the evidence has since shown, Its removal has caused more problems with vaccine preservation. This has made vaccines harder to transport to areas that need it, and can even result in more allergic reactions as they potentially spoil sooner than in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/863 "2010-09-10T00:03:03Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Hellestal, you are fucking delusional. Literate, my dear libertarian. The word you are looking for is _literate_. Or _fucking literate_, if you prefer. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > When I said government does not allow competing currencies I was referring to the system that Hayek and Ron Paul are advocating for. No, you weren’t. You are _now_, sure, after your error was pointed out. You’re trying to erase the past by ignoring your earlier mistakes. But they won’t go away. You’re still on record, by the way. Here is just one of many posts you no longer seem to remember writing. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@Hellestal](#): > > > > 1. People can already trade gold and silver for goods and services, if they so wish. The government isn’t stopping them. The government wants its taxes denominated in genuine green US dollars, but there are places to purchase and transfer electronic money “backed” by precious metals like gold, like the site “e-gold”. All debts, public and private, are apparently payable with dollars, at least according to the old dead white guys on my nifty little pieces of green paper. Okay, then. Make sure nobody gets in your debt. Demand contractually in advance that the transaction will be in gold. Voila. Problem solved. > > The government DOES NOT allow competing currencies PERIOD. That was in response to me. I pointed out that people can trade gold and silver. You _denied_ it. Even more hilarious, you brought up the totally irrelevant Liberty Dollar case as some sort of silly proof for whatever silly thing you were arguing at the time. Completely off topic, if you had truly been arguing Hayek. It saddens me to say this, but I believe this might be the final nail. At the very least, I’ve accomplished my own purpose here. Good night, flights of angels, et cetera. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/864 "2010-09-10T00:12:55Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > I want to add one more thing in response to this post. I think it is ridiculous to have such an overwhelming emphasis on arbitrary tests and double blind studies as the only criteria for the validity of a medical procedure or health product. > > The true criteria is the results that patients receive. Just to clarify, what do you think double blind studies measure? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/865 "2010-09-10T00:19:32Z")
> [@Baboonanza](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Yeah, pretty good, huh? Although Sam Stone takes your side on the issue of vaccines he clearly is advocating for Austrian economics. You know that right? > > > > Maybe he explains it in a way which is more palatable to you, but most here have parroted standard Keynesian jargon repeated endlessly, while Sam and myself are the voices of reason on the subject of correct economic policy. > > Sam is a voice of reason on economic policy. You are… not. > > What Sam presents is a rational assessment of current and past economic problems and feasible ideas for fixing them without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Whether he is absolutely correct or not I cannot say, but I don’t entirely disagree with him. > > What you have presented are typical Libertarian rants that have more to do with some insane ideology than actually trying to fix problems, or even properly understand what those problems are. Attmpting to ride Sam’s coat-tails will fool nobody. > > IMO. I am riding no ones coattails. I just have noticed that Sam demonstrates I better understanding of economics than most around here do. I certainly don’t agree with him on everything. I am much more of a Mises supporter than a Hayek supporter, though both have made indisputable contributions to modern economic thought. My OP stands on its own. My “typical libertarian rant” is not about “some insane ideology” and has EVERYTHING to do with fixing social problems. Don’t accuse me or Ron Paul of not having substantial policy ideas that are practical and applicable to normal situations. Consider these ideas: 1. End the wars overseas, close down military bases and slash the military budget drastically. Stop being the policemen of the world and restore sovereignty to nations we currently occupy. Do not start wars unless we are attacked first. Use force that is only comparable to that which threatens us. 2. Use the money saved by changing our foreign policy to pay down the debt and fund current obligations for Medicare and Social Security. 3. Audit the Federal Reserve system and find out the TRUE state of our economy so we can act accordingly. Repeal legal tender laws and remove any and all barriers to freely circulating competing currencies. 4. Audit the gold at Fort Knox 5. Abolish Crony Capitalism, ending ALL bailouts and corporate subsidies (especially farm subsidies). No regulatory or tax privileges to protect the powerful elite, especially the military industrial complex 6. Balance the budget and retain long term solvency by reducing spending 7. Regain respect for civil liberties and reign in the power of the CIA 8. Reclaim our government from the bankers and cronies that have parasitically drained our economy and lead us to financial ruin. This seems to me to be a fairly articulate plan that actually goes a long way to “solving problems”. What do you mean “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”? What about this plan do you object to? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/866 "2010-09-10T00:24:24Z")
> [@blanx](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > No actually they don’t. I like to defer to the AUTHORS of the document. I consider them a little more trustworthy than some activist that is a corporate crony, no better than a lawyer who finds a “legal” way to get a murderer off the hook. > > Wow. That’s rich. > > The Constitution ought to be adhered to, but lawyers who find a “legal” way to “get a murderer off the hook” are by implication scum? > > Legal ways, like, say, “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.” I should have phrased that wrong. I am not indicting lawyers who defend guilty people. Everyone is entitled to legal representation. My point was that people in our government search for any way AROUND the law and they use their lawyers to search for just such loopholes. The point being that the people are also charged with making sure that the Constitution is defended. If a Supreme Court justice allows unconstitutional activity to continue, we don’t have to stand for it. We can rise up and protest, States can Nullify unconstitutional laws and we can force our elected representatives to follow their oath. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/867 "2010-09-10T00:43:10Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Hellestal, you are fucking delusional. And you are out of line in Great Debates. Do not resort to personal insults in this forum. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/868 "2010-09-10T00:46:09Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > If you want to continue to contribute here, you should drop the condescending tone and “gotcha” tactics . . . . Dagnabit! I just got done replacing the last irony meter. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/869 "2010-09-10T00:47:56Z")
Did anyone just hear something that sounded like a pressure vessel exploding? ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/870 "2010-09-10T01:12:07Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > I’m not going to go to a bunch of links with no explanation. I am certainly not going to a [lewrockwell.com](http://lewrockwell.com) link from work - they think I am crazy enough already. > > > > Why don’t you, the undegreed economics expert, inform me, _ **in your own words** _, why you make the leap from MV=PT to changes in M being automatically mirrored in P? > > > > It should be easy for you. > > **jrodefeld** > > You seem to have missed this in the whole broohaha over vaccines and people being cured by water. So any chance of an answer? > > And while you’re at it, some idea of where your “expertise” in economics comes from… Thats easy. In the 1911 book “The Purchasing Power of Money” Irving Fisher presents what is understood as the mechanical quantity theory of money. This Fisherine quantity theory is mathematical and mechanical. A major complaint against it is that it fails to take any account of the psychological valuations of individuals. The famous equation is: MV=PT. In this equation M stands for the quantity of money, V stands for the velocity of circulation of that money. P is the average price level of goods and services and T stands for the volume of trade, meaning the quantity of goods that the money is exchanged for. Fisher’s emphasis on the velocity of circulation is misplaced. Velocity of circulation is a result not a cause. The value of money is determined not by mechanical factors, but rather by psychological factors. The value of money is determined not only by its quantity but also by expectations of its future quantity. I am not saying that there is an exact relationship between the quantity of money and the average price of goods and services, but the discrepancies that exist are not due to the velocity of circulation, but rather psychological factors that can influence the perceived value of money. The monetarist explanation of inflation, as shown in MV=PT, the quantity theory of money, is faulty and is rejected by the Austrians. Read this quote by Ludwig von Mises about the velocity of circulation: > [@](#): > > The service that money renders does not consist in its turnover. It consists in its being ready in cash holdings for any future use. > Money is never “idle.” It always renders to somebody the only service that it can render, namely being a part of a man’s cash holdings. > Cash holdings are sometimes greater and sometimes smaller with the same individual. But nobody ever has cash holdings greater than he wants to have. If he thinks that his cash holding are excessive, he invests the surplus either by buying (producers’ or consumers’ goods) or by lending it. (Time deposits are one method of lending money.) It is a judgment of value to call somebody’s cash holding “hoarding.” The individual concerned believes that under the given state of affairs, the best policy (let us say: the minor evil) is to increase his cash holdings. It does not matter whether I approve of his behavior or not. His behavior — not my subjective opinion about its expediency — is a factor influencing the formation of market prices. > It is futile to distinguish between “circulating” money and “idle” money. Money changes hands without being ownerless for any fraction of time. Money may be in the process of transportation, traveling in railroad cars or in other means of transportation. But it is, even from the legal point of view, always in somebody’s possession. > In a changing world everybody is under the necessity of keeping an amount of ready cash on hand. This desire creates the demand for money and makes people willing to sell goods and services in exchange for money. A realistic theory of the value and the purchasing power of money must therefore start from a recognition of these desires. The changes in the purchasing power of the monetary unit are brought about by changes arising in the relation between the demand for money, i.e., the demand for money for cash holding, and the supply of money. > The main deficiency of the velocity of circulation concept is that it does not start from the actions of individuals but looks at the problem from the angle of the whole economic system. This concept in itself is a vicious mode of approaching the problem of prices and purchasing power. It is assumed that, other things being equal, prices must change in proportion to the changes occurring in the total supply of money available. This is not true. Average cash holding has little to do with why prices go up and down. Changes in the value people place on the monetary unit has everything to do with it. V is a result rather than a cause. There is no relation between the “velocity of circulation” and the purchasing power of the monetary unit. I highly suggest you read The Value of Money, a 1917 book written by Benjamin M. Anderson. He brilliantly is able to refute the Fisher quantity theory of money. [Mises Institute Non-Profit Book Store](http://mises.org/store/Value-of-Money-The-P379C0.aspx) As a rule any increases in the monetary base will necessitate a corresponding increase in the prices of goods and services. But, as I have explained, psychological factors play a huge role. People place value in money when it is unfounded, like people are doing today with the dollar. This masks the inflation that really exists. In the records of hyperinflation, the mechanical quanity of money can be very great, but as long as there is a belief that there is value in the money, the system can be held together, albiet by a thread. However, when the confidence is lost, the house of cards comes tumbling down. Inflation and its effects is a fascinating study that most people are woofully uninformed about. There is plenty in the Austrian literature to explain more precisely than I am able the effects of monetary policy and the mechanisms that necessitate an increase in prices. My “expertise” in economics comes from the classes I DID take in college and my study of Austrian economics. I have read probably two dozen works by the Austrians. My perceived arrogence on the matter is not due to my thinking I have “mastered” the science of economics or the Austrian School, but rather the blatant irrationality of Keynesian economics which is being pushed today. My feeling is that most people should be able to tell that Keynes worshippers like Krugman should be committed, let alone taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/871 "2010-09-10T01:18:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > Not with homeopathy. As much as you think it is bullshit, the people who practice it believe in it 100%. They are not trying to scam anyone. This makes homeopathy not a fraud. Everyone knows what they are getting. > > You said to **tomndebb** “You act as if there is some big conspiracy to knowingly screw people through pushing a fraululent scam on people.” I was hoping you would recognize that you’ve adopted the same outlook on several issues. Well, I see what you are getting at, but I disagree. I don’t see everything as a big conspiracy theory, as many do. Mostly bad policies are lead by ignorance and a single minded focus on benefiting from the system as much as possible, to hell with the consequences for everyone else. That is probably 95% of the problem. But there are people who make plans in secret (the definition of conspiracy) and they plan ahead. I think people are so afraid to be “outside the mainstream” that they refuse to put two and two together on certain issues for fear of being ostracized for taking a certain position, despite the evidence. You shouldn’t believe any old conspiracy theory, but you also shouldn’t rule it out without looking at the evidence dispassionately. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/872 "2010-09-10T01:21:01Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > You know that most people define libertarianism as a person who believes in personal liberty? > > As I stated, a number of other philosophical constructs revolve around personal liberty (natural law, objectivism, economic liberalism, modern liberalism). Simply because someone believes in personal liberty, that doesn’t make them a libertarian. We could actually try and look at their actions as a whole, or we could do what you are doing, which is to pretend that the founders never actually did anything except write a few selectively picked quotes. > > Right. That’s why they then went on to redistribute wealth and spend money subsidizing private industry. You should probably pick up a history book once in awhile. > > > [@](#): > > > > I don’t want to spend the time to beat this issue to death with you, as its so overwhelmingly obvious. Just google: the founder fathers were libertarian and see what comes up. > > Of course you’re not going to beat it to death because you have no idea what you’re talking about. Apparently, according to you, people who practice slavery, wealth redistribution, private subsidies and economic restriction are libertarians. No, they were full of contradictions and faults. I am not one to deify the founders. But lets be real for a minute. I substantially believe that most of the founders were closer to libertarianism than modern liberalism. How can you dispute this? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/873 "2010-09-10T01:24:25Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > My feeling is that most people should be able to tell that Keynes worshippers like Krugman should be committed, let alone taken seriously. Exactly my take on Austrian worshippers. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/874 "2010-09-10T01:29:19Z")
You know who else was Austrian? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/875 "2010-09-10T01:37:15Z")
Does he want to arrest all the Californians that voted for Ahnold? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/876 "2010-09-10T01:37:19Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You know who else was Austrian? > 😛 Mozart? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/877 "2010-09-10T02:01:23Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > I substantially believe that most of the founders were closer to libertarianism than modern liberalism. Primarily on the basis of discredited quotes that were either fabricated or misattributed. ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/878 "2010-09-10T03:06:33Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > This is complete garbage. You are so full of shit. > > I love you too. > > Yes. Out of the dozens and dozens of links that you’ve posted, dozens and dozens have gone to racist people and organizations. Not a very good record, wouldn’t you agree. As for the fact that you never “actually said” anything racist, but only linked to racist things, so what? If you don’t want to be classified as a racist, you should stop linking to racist things. This isn’t rocket science. First of all, this post is so full of desperate smears and ignorance it is hardly worth responding to. I find it funny since most of the links I have posted are to serious economic websites like [mises.org](http://mises.org) yet you like to visit another link I may have posted, not read the article but instead desperately search its contents to smear me for some other opinion I have only a cursory relation to. This is a trademark of someone so ignorant and ill informed that he substitutes name calling and guilt by association to cover up his own mental deficits and trouble with even basic articulation of a coherent argument. How often do you accuse people of being a racist, antisemitic, or anti mexican each day? If the bar is set this low, then you have serious problems. There is so much discussion that should be allowed to be had in this country but speaking your mind, or not being politically correct is conflated with being a racist thus limiting necessary discourse to move us beyond racial stereotypes and have actual dialog among ourselves on matters of substance. \*\*Does anyone else here see the absurdity of me being held accountable for each and every story posted on each website I link to? If I ran an alternative website and I was collecting stories that I thought would best inform people, I would post things that I didn’t agree with and things that may even be offensive. If you are offering a large degree of content from a variety of perspectives no one is expected to agree with everything. \*\* But let me go one with some specifics: > [@](#): > > A concern about sovereignty does not constitute bigotry against Mexicans. Believing in the NAFTA Superhighway, the Amero, and the North American Union has nothing to do with sovereignty. All three of those are conspiracy theories unrelated to anything that has ever existed in reality. Racists such as Ron Paul and Lou Dobbs spread those conspiracy theories with the intention of whipping up hatred and violence against Mexicans. There’s no deny this since your own links show it to be true. Again, from the link that you chose to post to a Lou Dobbs video: “Mexicans are at war against America” and are “trying to destroy America”. Saying that all members of a certain ethnic group are at war with America and trying to destroy America is bigotry and also an attempt to incite violence. So anybody who promotes belief in the NAFTA Superhighway, the Amero, and the North American Union is promoting violence against Mexicans. If this is not clear to you, then I’ll be happy to explain at even greater length. First of all, why are you bringing up the NAFTA Superhighway theory here? This has absolutely no bearing on what we are discussing and shows how far back you are going to try to denigrate my name. There is nothing that pisses me off more than someone who casually throws around the word racist. Lou Dobbs is a moron, but he is not a racist. See, you disagree with him, alright? There is a big difference between that and him being a racist. He is simply unreasonbalbly focused on border security. You make the leap that he is doing that because he hates Mexicans. You don’t know that. Nobody can know what is going on in his mind. As for Ron Paul, he is obviously not a racist. Nobody has EVER found him saying anything racist in his career. As to the theory about a North American Union and the Amero, regardless of whether you consider that plausible (I agree it is far out there), you don’t think there are good reasons to oppose such a thing other than hating Mexicans?:smack: What you are doing is saying that because some people use these ideas as ways to stir up racial tensions (and they do) all people who have concerns about sovereignty hate Mexicans. The absurdity of this should be self evident. By the way, if I or someone else wanted to secure the border and restrict immigration a little, does that make us racist? To a rational person, of course it doesn’t. I am not sure you are rational however. > [@](#): > > And like I asked before, am I supposed to believe that it’s just a coincidence that (a) you have made such a huge number of “honest mistakes” and (b) every “honest mistake” you make just happens to involve a link to someone denying the Holocaust and spreading antisemitism? The odds of such a thing happening are too small to be worth considering, so by extension it seems a lot more likely that you chose to link to those videos and are now trying to deny it with any excuse, no matter how flimsy. I haven’t made “a huge number” of mistakes. There were TWO videos I posted on a thread from a LONG time ago that were posted by mistake. And you drag up that issue because you can’t debate the merit of the argument taking place on this thread. Everything else (the articles) that I link to I stand by. You are pretty desperate, huh? > [@](#): > > John Denson is pro-Hitler and I will prove it by quoting what he actually said about Hitler. > Quote: > Originally Posted by John Denson > > _His intentions were well known before and during the war. He stated from the beginning, before he took power, as well as thereafter, that he was against the harsh and unfair Versailles Treaty which virtually disarmed Germany and it included the inequities created for Germany in Poland and Czechoslovakia, which he intended to correct either through negotiation or, if necessary, by force. He stated and wrote that the only war he wanted was to fight Communism and to regain some of the living space that Germany had acquired in their treaty with Russia during World War I, which was abrogated by the Versailles Treaty._ > > That’s from the link that you posted in post #475. So there you have it. In a statement made by Denson, endorsed by you, Hitler never wanted any of that war and conquest stuff. He was a nice guy who only opposed a “harsh and unfair” treaty. As for why Hitler sent troops into more than a dozen countries and rounding up and slaughtering tens of millions of people, neither Denson nor you nor any other Hitler-supporter is willing to say. In any case, now that I’ve quoted that pro-Hitler statement that Denson made and you linked to, your claim that “Denson is not pro-Hitler” looks pretty pathetic. That doesn’t say that Hitler was a good person! Are you delusional? He was providing some much needed context to an important period in our history. The reason Hitler was allowed to come to power in the first place was due to praying upon the grievances of the German people that arose from the unfair Versailles Treaty. It has been said that our involvement in World War I set in motion the events that led to World War II. The Versailles Treaty was a large part of that. Neither I, nor Denson are saying that Hitler was a good guy. What we are saying is that he drew upon real, justified anger of the German people against the aggression and imposition of the United States in their affairs. Its like today when I say that Osama bin Laden had justifiable reasons for hating the United States (killing at least half a million innocents in Iraq in the 90s, occupying their holy lands and imposing our will on them). That doesn’t mean I am condoning terrorism, only that I am saying that we share some of the blame for the hatred against us. It is the exact same thing here. Hitler was a bad guy. A bad guy that we unwittingly helped come to power based on the German peoples real, justified anger towards the United States. You lose big time on this one. Better read up on your history, junior. > [@](#): > > Well, I’ve seen quite a lot that’s racist and bigoted there. For starters, there are the three articles I’ve already mentioned: “The Jewish Role in Slavery”, “Crazed Israelies Threaten Total War”, and “Massive Israeli Manipulation of American Media”. Those are all extremely bigoted and anti-Semitic. Then there’s this article, which claims that the Holocaust was a hoax and that the Jews at Auschwitz should be thankful for how well-treated there were. And we’ve got this article, which says that the Jews were responsible for World War II. So in short, your claim that there is “nothing racist and bigoted” on [rense.com](http://rense.com) is easily proven to be false. A cursory glance shows that the entire site is devoted mainly to anti-Semitism, with perhaps a few sidebars about selling marijuana and alien invasions. There is no way that any person could enjoy the site, much less promote it, unless they were extremely anti-Semitic themselves. Let me note that I haven’t linked to hardly any articles from [Rense.com](http://Rense.com). I only listed the website as an interesting collection of articles and news items that one could find interesting if they chose. What you are confusing is being anti Israel or anti Israel Lobby is much different from hating all Jews. Not acknowledging some of the atrocities committed by the Israeli government is horrible as well. Let me ask you this: Why is an Israeli life worth more than a Palestinian life? Why can’t Israel fend for herself? Why do we have hold her hand? Why can’t we safely eliminate the undue and disproportionate influence that Israel exerts over our foreign policy and the media? I don’t hate Jews and I never have. But I dispute the actions of Israel often. There is a big difference. I posted the site because some may find some of the articles interesting. I agree that quite a lot veers into conspiracy theory territory, but I can enjoy that once in a while. You never know what could be true. Confining yourself to a small box does no good. I didn’t link to anything from [Rense.com](http://Rense.com) that I claimed to be definitive so your criticism is unfounded. > [@](#): > > Now that we’ve got that covered, let me ask two more questions that you can ignore because you’re unwilling to answer them. > > First question. Do you believe that Adolf Hitler and the Nazis were good people? > > Second question. If you answered ‘no’ to the first question, then why do you keep promoting people and webpages that are pro-Hitler and pro-Nazi? Lest you’re tempted to pretend that you don’t promote such people and pages, keep in mind that I’ve just given numerous examples in which you did so and I could give many more. First answer: No, I don’t believe Hitler and the Nazis were good people Second answer: I don’t. You apparently have all the nuance and subtlety of a baseball bat strike to the head. The information I have provided pertained to the United States misconduct during the 20s through the 40s. Hitler is not excused if I say that the German people had reason to hate us following World War I. There is so much history you need to learn from this time period. I, nor anyone I linked to is pro Hitler or pro Nazi. > [@](#): > > That so? Well, perhaps the next time you’re motivated to link to a webpage that promotes hatred and violence towards black people, you should think about how your “many black friends” would feel about it. And then, perhaps, you should NOT LINK TO THAT PAGE. Doesn’t that sound like a good idea? Well, I haven’t linked to any websites that promote violence and hatred towards black people, so that won’t be a problem. I find this even funnier considering so much of my libertarian policies would be aimed at undoing the harmful policies that disproportionately hurt black americans. If I was in charge I would eliminate the drug war and pardon all non violent drug offenders. This would eliminate the crime that plagues inner cities today. I would have targeted school vouchers for inner city minorities to allow them to go to the school of their choice. I would eliminate unfounded regulations and allow any and all peaceful economic activity to allow and encourage black entrepreneurship and the creation of small businesses in the inner city. ALL red tape would be eliminated and tax credits would be given as a substitute. Most of the people I know would laugh at you characterizing me as being a racist. They would see it for what it is: a tired smear from a desperate person who is losing a debate. Its laughable really. > [@](#): > > Oh, but I can. As mentioned in the review which I already linked to, his book \*The Politically Correct Guide to American History" says: “The colonists came from one part of Europe. They spoke a common language. They worshiped the same God.” > > Now certainly the blacks who were brought to America as slaves were not from Europe, nor did they speak a common language or share a religion with the Europena settlers. So Woods’ statement is akin to saying that those black slaves did not exist. (Or perhaps he regards them as sub-human.) As for “leading”, he’s the only one I know who’s gotten this sort of racist drivel onto the bestseller list lately. Now, this one is truly insane. You think THAT quote is proof of racism? Really? Your serious, aren’t you? At WORST this seems like a minor oversight. And plus, he is talking about the colonists. He has spoken out eloquently against slavery and discrimination for years. This smear is old hat. Why don’t you actually find a REAL racist quote from Tom Woods, rather than your imaginary projections. > [@](#): > > A great deal of what you’ve linked to is racist. As just mentioned there are the examples of Tom Woods, WND, and the New American. Then there’s the other examples which I mentioned in post 593 and which, like I predicted, you refused to respond to. Those would be [rense.com](http://rense.com), which has a banner saying “David Duke for President”. Also another person who you ordered us to obey was Lew Rockwell, who has a substantial history of attacking black people. In fact, Rockwell wrote the racist newsletters that Ron Paul put his name on in the 90’s. So now that I’ve demonstrated clearly, with links and quotes, that you’ve spent a lot of time spreading hatred of black people on this board, what are you going to do? A “great deal”, huh? If by a great deal, you really mean “none”, then you’d be right. Your examples are insane and not substantiated. By the way, [Rense.com](http://Rense.com) is NOT endorsing David Duke for president. There is a myth that Lew Rockwell wrote the racist articles that appeared in the newsletters that had Ron Paul’s name at the top. This is not true. They were written by interns and people who were hired and fired over an eight year period when Ron Paul was practicing medicine. Lew Rockwell may have had a cursory involvement at one point or another, but there is no evidence that he “wrote” those articles. So, you really have nothing. You may, when you get bored with this charade, get back to the substance of the debate we are having. Its a little harder than throwing around baseless accusations but your intellect may yet evolve past its primitive state with a little practice. > [@](#): > > Well I’ve already told you once, but since you apparently missed it I’ll tell you again. In this article they not only endorse Arizona’s racist immigration law but say that it’s “humiliating” for Barack Obama to tell the truth about it. Not racist. I don’t even agree with the Arizona law, but I see much of the rallying around this issue to be about opposing the federal government rather than hating Mexicans. Nothing in that very short article is racist. Do you even know the definition of racism? I am starting to doubt it. You had better find something other than that to indict that website. That article was anti Obama but didn’t even strike me as overly in favor of the Arizona law. > [@](#): > > Yes. You link to a source, you’re saying that you view it as a credible source. Nope. Completely wrong. I probably couldn’t find a website where everything they post I agree with. I have a few references that I use, but I find the gems out of the many article I don’t agree with. What website or newspaper do you read that you can vouch for EVERYTHING they ever printed? This is getting ridiculous. > [@](#): > > Then your position is quite different from the one expressed by [breakthematrix.com](http://breakthematrix.com). Right, because I THINK INDEPENDENTLY. I am suspecting you simply read dailykos or the New York times and accept everything as gospel truth because thats what you think everyone else does. Yes, in fact I can have a different opinion from some article on some website I sometimes read. Crazy, huh? By the way I haven’t seen anything on that website that is overly anti immigrant. Defending the borders, caring about sovereignty and concerns like that are far different from hating Mexicans. The vast majority of articles I have seen even from far right sources have belonged to the former category. > [@](#): > > Well at least this time you’re admitting that you did post the video. When you post a video, you’re endorsing as accurate what’s said in that video. No, I’m not! I’m saying, in that case that the issue you claimed was ridiculous was in fact a part of mainstream conversation. Not to endorse Lou Dobbs. As this goes along you are getting more pathetic. > [@](#): > > Actually it’s demonstrably true, as I’ve just demonstrated. Delusion is a hard beast to tame. > [@](#): > > Again, you’ve linked to the following websites run by white supremacists: [LewRockwell.com](http://LewRockwell.com), [rense.com](http://rense.com), and many others that I’m too lazy to dig up right now. But I do remember that in post 193 of this thread you linked to this, which begins by saying: And now I find out that you don’t know what a White Supremacist is either. Stromfront is a white supremacist website. Lew Rockwell and Jeff Rense are owners of websites, one a libertarian and Austrian economist and the other an alternative news disseminator and “conspiracy” theorist. Neither is a white supremacist. You need to get your facts together. > [@](#): > > Nope, you owe me $10. The wager was about whether you’d answer the question concerning why you post so many racist links. You haven’t explained why you post so many racist links, but have instead denied doing so. Hilarious. Since I am not admitting I am a racist, I owe you $10, huh? I responded and you didn’t like what I said. Tough shit. You still have absolutely no case and you will certainly be sorry you chose to go down this route with me. Vigorous and healthy debate is fine and desirable. Once you cross the line towards accusing someone of racism, things can get ugly. You don’t really want to go there with me, I promise you. > [@](#): > > Well, how about it folks? Does anybody agree with jrodefeld’s assessment of the thread? Those that are reading carefully will not have any doubt that, although most disagree with me, nothing I have written or linked to would imply that I am a racist, bigoted or prejudiced in any way. It is simply not believable. You logic is lacking and your case is weak. If you drop it we can begin to discuss serious issues again. We don’t need your baseless accusations around here. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/879 "2010-09-10T03:16:35Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > 1. Audit the gold at Fort Knox > > 2. Regain respect for civil liberties and reign in the power of the CIA Are these two because of Ron Paul’s belief that the government has secretly been stealing from itself to fund CIA black ops and periodically dumping gold on the market to keep the price of gold low for the sinster purpose of… um… sinster stuff? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/880 "2010-09-10T03:24:18Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > 1. Audit the gold at Fort Knox > > > > 2. Regain respect for civil liberties and reign in the power of the CIA > > Are these two because of Ron Paul’s belief that the government has secretly been stealing from itself to fund CIA black ops and periodically dumping gold on the market to keep the price of gold low for the sinster purpose of… um… sinster stuff? Boy, if the CIA has been dumping gold to keep the price down, then the _real price_ would have to bee $2000-3000/ounce. :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=45)