# This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784 "2010-08-19T20:08:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/981 "2010-09-13T12:51:40Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > There is SO much more information I could provide, but this should provide enough reading material for a while. Before you open your mouth again you should read the full history of the event and absorb the overwhelming information that implicates Roosevelt, his Administration and members of the military in the attack on Pearl Harbor. Try to actually pay attention to the facts for once. > > Look, the facts are the facts. This may not have been what you were told in school, but it is in fact accurate history. There are MANY historians and writers who believe this, not just some fringe group of “cranks” and “conspiracy nuts”. Actually, you are wrong regarding “MANY” (genuine) historians. (I would suggest that you would be wrong that there are “ANY” (genuine) historians who believe that trash, but there is a legitimate gray area where some historians hold conflicting views.) The war with Japan was pretty much inevitable. They were an expanding empire and our empire had possession of resources they needed to keep going. We had been preparing for war with Japan since at least the 1920s. However, FDR considered Germany the more serious threat to the U.S., our ally Great Britain, and civilization, in general, and the last thing he wanted was a hot war with Japan dividing our resources. (The famous Louisiana Maneuvers were all conducted with a view to German tank battles–even though the Army was so under-prepared that a number of the “weapons” employed were broomsticks.) The notion that FDR was deliberately seeking war with Japan is nonsense. FDR certainly knew that the Japanese were preparing for some war at some point, but his actions to reduce the shipments of iron and oil to Japan were not intended to “force” Japan into attacking. The gray area of discussion involves whether FDR could have predicted that the embargoes were more likely to stall the Japanese or more likely to precipitate an attack or whether he could have used a different diplomatic approach to stall that war until Germany had been defeated. Claims that he deliberately sought a war with Japan at the end of 1941 are nothing more than boilerplate Conspiracy Theories. There is much made of the lack or preparedeness by the defenders of Hawaii, (and most of the CT boobs consentrate on that), but all the “evidence” that FDR knew that the Japanese fleet was on its way across the Pacific at the end of November is based on anachronistic reworking of information or on outright lies. Alternatively, it looks at the normal preparations of any military to begin preparing for a foreseen eventual conflict as “evidence” that FDR knew of a specific attack. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/982 "2010-09-13T13:33:00Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > But, why do you react to the suggestion that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor, or other ideas about history, with such a closed mind? Why on earth do you consider the idea impossible? I consider the idea impossible for the same reasons that I consider impossible your claims that the government is using vaccinations to poison us, that the Holocaust was a hoax, and all of the other crazy conspiracy theories that you advance on a daily basis. Those reasons being that: (1) you’re unable to link to any evidence in favor of this conspiracy theory (2) in place of actually evidence, you link to insane cranks and (3) if the conspiracy theory were actually true, someone involved in it would have come forward at some point. No one has. > [@](#): > > Ask yourself this: Do governments benefit from war? Not usually. Take the Vietnam War and consider how popular the American government was at the beginning vs at the end. Take the Damn Fool War (Cecil’s name for the second Iraq War) and ask the same question. > [@](#): > > Of course they do. With that said, in the 20th century alone there are numerous documented staged events which built the case for war or and escalation for war. But dispite this, the buildup for war during the early 49s was free from ANY deceit or witheld information, huh? You really believe that? What war were we building up to in the early 49’s? You should really learn about this nice button called “Preview” that allows you to double-check your post. Your entire conspiracy theory is based on the assumption that the Democrats and the American government were deliberately conducting a "buildup for war during the early 40’s. They were not. They were making every possible effort to stay out of war. Unfortunately for you, the claim that the United States sought war with Japan or Germany is easily proved false. We were at peace with Japan until Japan attacked us. We were at peace with Germany until Germany declared war on us on Dec. 11, 1941. Those are the facts, much as you’ll try to deny them. In fact, I can go further and point out that both Japan and Germany had attacked the United States long before Pearl Harbor. Japan sank the American gunship U. S. S. Panama in China several years before Pearl Harbor, and Germany sank _three_ American ships months before declaring war on us. Yet despite these things, the United States did not enter WWII until Japan and Germany launched all-out attacks on us. How does that fit with your claim that the United States was deliberately seeking war? It doesn’t. > [@](#): > > Putting aside whether or not there is evidence to support such a position (there is plenty) or whether there are mainstream historians who believe it (there are many) the question I am raising is why this seems to be such a preposterous notion? > > If you were a nation embattled in a Great Depression, with high unemployment figures and and failing New Deal policies and an increasingly disillusioned electorate, the desire to create a distraction (outside threat), and employ people (in the war effort) would be immense. Of course, in Dec. 1941 we were not a nation “embattled [sic] in the Great Depression”. The Great Depression had already been over for several years by then. We did not have high unemployment because New Deal policies had succeeded. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/983 "2010-09-13T13:53:30Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > We were at peace with Japan until Japan attacked us. We were at peace with Germany until Germany declared war on us on Dec. 11, 1941. Those are the facts, much as you’ll try to deny them. In fact, I can go further and point out that both Japan and Germany had attacked the United States long before Pearl Harbor. Japan sank the American gunship U. S. S. Panama in China several years before Pearl Harbor, Psst. The Japanese sank the [USS Panay](http://www.usspanay.org/attacked.shtml), not the Panama. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/984 "2010-09-13T14:44:17Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > I’m NOT a conspiracy theorist. After all, if he was a conspiracy theorist he’d believe in wacky ideas without supporting evidence like, say, FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance, and when people pointed out the lack of evidence, he’d kvetch about how close minded everyone else is and suggest that since wars have been ginned up on dubious grounds before (ie Gulf of Tonkin) that’s all the reason we need to believe WW2 started the same way. The fact that he doesn’t do any of that shows he’s no conspiracy theorist. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/985 "2010-09-13T15:06:05Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > But, why do you react to the suggestion that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor, or other ideas about history, with such a closed mind? […] > > Putting aside whether or not there is evidence to support such a position (there is plenty) or whether there are mainstream historians who believe it (there are many) the question I am raising is why this seems to be such a preposterous notion? Besides the lack of credible evidence, there’s the following issue of logic: Even if FDR did want an outside event to force the US into WW2, it hardly seems likely that he’d want to enter the war with a large hunk of the Pacific fleet on the bottom of the ocean. If military intelligence happened to warn the commanders at Pearl Harbor a couple of hours in advance on the morning of Dec. 7, there’d still be a hell of a causus belli but the US fleet would presumably take less of a pasting since it would have enough time to scramble planes into the air. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > If you were a nation embattled in a Great Depression, with high unemployment figures and and failing New Deal policies and an increasingly disillusioned electorate, the desire to create a distraction (outside threat), and employ people (in the war effort) would be immense. Yet oddly, not immense enough to declare war after Japan sank the US Panay in 1937 or after Germany sank the Ruben James in 1940. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/986 "2010-09-13T15:17:52Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Yet oddly, not immense enough to declare war after Japan sank the US Panay in 1937 or after Germany sank the Ruben James in 1940. I’m not arguing with you on this, nor do I doubt these event, but I’m kind of curious - why _didn’t_ the US declare war after those events? Maybe the Panay was an accident, but 3 sinkings by Germany? I’m just kind of curious about this. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/987 "2010-09-13T15:21:38Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Psst. The Japanese sank the [USS Panay](http://www.usspanay.org/attacked.shtml), not the Panama. Thank for correcting me. I regret the error. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/988 "2010-09-13T15:31:57Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Yet oddly, not immense enough to declare war after Japan sank the US Panay in 1937 or after Germany sank the Ruben James in 1940. Note: The year for the Reuben James sinking should be 1941. (Damn Federal Reserve causing typos again!) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/989 "2010-09-13T15:32:19Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > I want you to respond in detail to these links and this information. I’ve read plenty and here’s the short answer: You can make about as much of an argument that Roosevelt knew about Pearl harbor as you can that Bush knew about 9/11. Plenty of people do both but we consider them crackpots. What you’ve read are conspiracy theory and polemics targetted at people who would be incline to believe it in the first place. There have been ten government inquiries into this exact topic and none of them pointed a damning finger at Roosevelt. They uncovered incompetence and a failure of various intelligence agencies to effectivelty share information but none of the ten inquiries found a smoking gun. Sure there were peices of knowledge within the government that if put together would have pointed to an attack on Pearl harbor that day. Yes we KNEW that the Japanese might attack us sometime soon (we were basically goading the Japanese into giving us an excuse to enter the war). But the notion that Rooselvelt knew that Pearl harbor would be attacked on December 7th is still mere conspiracy theory. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/990 "2010-09-13T15:38:04Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Oh, nonsense. The attempted secession of the South in order to preserve slavery demonstrates that secessionism and protecting liberty have nothing to do with each other. That’s what all the various state’s rights arguments have in common; at base they are pushed by people who hate it when the Federal government says they can’t oppress people. > > This is a typical smear that is unfounded. Anyone who supports states rights must be a racist. If you read about the history of the civil war you would see that is was about FAR more than slavery. There were many factors that went in to the decision to secede. We’ve had this discussion before and it was pretty conclusively established that slavery was the cause of the Civil War. Without the slavery issue, noone gave a shit about states rights. > [@](#): > > In our current history the Federal government has far too much power and the states have far too little. Yeah, cuz we’ve seen what states do with their power. > [@](#): > > I prefer local government over massive national government. That’s odd because local governments are notoriously more corrupt than federal government. All the horror stories about ridiculously high pensions occur at the state level. What is it about local government that you prefer over federal government because I gotta tell you teh track record seems to support larger federal role over a larger state and local role. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/991 "2010-09-13T15:43:12Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > > I’m NOT a conspiracy theorist. > > After all, if he was a conspiracy theorist he’d believe in wacky ideas without supporting evidence like, say, FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance, and when people pointed out the lack of evidence, he’d kvetch about how close minded everyone else is and suggest that since wars have been ginned up on dubious grounds before (ie Gulf of Tonkin) that’s all the reason we need to believe WW2 started the same way. The fact that he doesn’t do any of that shows he’s no conspiracy theorist. And if he was a conspiracy theorist he’d say things like this: > [@jrodefeld](#): > > And, the biggest reason to be skeptical of SOME vaccines is this…What if the wrong group of people were to become in charge or in positions of power in our government and wanted to inject the population with drugs that they knew would have deleterious effects on the people? Perhaps environmental radicals who wanted to reduce the population numbers add infertility drugs to a vaccine? Our CIA has performed experiments on people without their consent before. Drugs have been injected into certain segments of the population in the past which would knowingly cause harm to those people. Its not TOO far fetched of an idea. There is precedent for this. It keeps on quacking like a duck while insisting it is _absolutely_ not a duck, really. Belief in conspiracies, past/present/future is what feeds many of the Ron Paul groupie army - _ **They** _ don’t want us to know, but Ron has revealed _ **Their** _ plots and will protect us from _ **Them** _. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/992 "2010-09-13T16:39:18Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > First of all, this post is so full of desperate smears and ignorance it is hardly worth responding to. I find it funny since most of the links I have posted are to serious economic websites like [mises.org](http://mises.org) yet you like to visit another link I may have posted, not read the article but instead desperately search its contents to smear me for some other opinion I have only a cursory relation to. This is a trademark of someone so ignorant and ill informed that he substitutes name calling and guilt by association to cover up his own mental deficits and trouble with even basic articulation of a coherent argument. And I love you too. > [@](#): > > How often do you accuse people of being a racist, antisemitic, or anti mexican each day? Exactly as often as I participate in threads started by you, since you’re the only person I encounter regularly who spends a great deal of time promoting persons and organizations devoted to the hatred of blacks, Jews, and Mexicans. First of all, you accuse me of not knowing what racism is. I offer the following definition: “The belief that some racial group, as a whole, has some negative quality or is involved in some bad activity.” With that definition established, it will be easy to prove that many of your sources are racist. Let’s start with [rense.com](http://www.rense.com/), which you have not only endorsed as a good site but defended at very great length. In these defenses, you have repeatedly brought up Israel and Palestine and accused me of believing that “an Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian life” and that “we should bow down before the government of Israel”. Now I have never mentioned _anything_ about Israel or Palestine in this thread. So why are you accusing me of saying something that I flatly did not say? Remember that you’ve promised repeatedly to answer every question. I’m greatly looking forward to your answer to this one. Now that we’ve established that my criticism of [rense.com](http://rense.com) has nothing to do with Israel or Palestine, let’s go over the list of anti-Semitic material on that site. Of course I’ve posted this list twice already and you’ve responded by ignoring it twice already, but I’m tenacious. I’m going to continue posting this until you’re willing to acknowledge it’s existence and explain why you’re promoting a website with this material. [Here is an article](http://www.rense.com/general92/dirty.htm) declaring that Jews are responsible for World War II and that the Nazi policies towards Jews were a good thing. [Here is an article](http://www.rense.com/lets_stop_with_the_auschwitz_lies.htm.html) which says that the Holocaust never occurred and that Jews should be thankful for how they were treated by the Nazis. [Here is a video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUE0si2llTY) that Jeff Rense links to which says that Jews are responsible for slavery. [Here is another](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDmdjC34wSk). [Here is an article claiming](http://www.rense.com/general92/zpow.htm) that America’s Jewish citizens are plotting to control the country. [Here is an article](http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/07/16/does-event-honoring-israeli-spy-suggest-another-israeli-operation/) blaming the Jews for 9/11. [Here’s](http://smokingmirrors.blogspot.com/2010/09/9th-anniversary-of-israels-attack-on.html) a second such article. [Here’s a video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xXJ9eq30_0) that he links to implying the same. And right now on the front page there’s a large picture claiming that Zionists are responsible for 9/11, followed by about thirty truther articles. Note that none of these examples of anti-Semitism and racism have anything to do with the Palestinians. So now let me ask you two questios. Do you believe that the Jews were responsible for starting World War II, that the Holocaust was a hoax, that the Jews should be thankful for how the Nazis treated him, that American Jews are all conspiring to bring down the country, that Jews are secretly running the media and the banking system, and that Jews are responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks? If not, then why have you promoted and repeatedly defended a website which says all of these things in a big, bold way? (If your response is to try changing the subject to something dealing with Israel and the Palestinians, please keep in mind that I’ve already explained that none of the things I’m referring to make any mention of that issue. Also don’t try saying again that Rense is good guy who “occasionally slips into conspiracy theories” when there’s very little on his webpage that isn’t aggressively promoting hatred of the Jews or someone else.) Unless you’re willing to answer these questions, I will assume that you’ve acknowledged that this website is antisemitic and that you’re therefore guilty of promoting an antisemitic website. As far as Jeff Rense promoting David Duke for President, there was a large blue banner saying “David Duke for President” on the website when you first linked to it. That banner is gone now, but Rense does still have a link to [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88AsArwYsTc). So Rense is, in fact, promoting David Duke for President and you can’t deny it. So again, do you feel that David Duke would make a good president, and if not then why promote a website that promotes Duke? Now on to Lou Dobbs and his anti-Mexican tirades. Your attempt to slip away from the facts here is very similar to what you do with Jeff Rense and his antisemitism. You try to claim that the video of Dobbs and the various other anti-Mexican websites you’ve linked are only concerned about border security and national sovereignty, not about attacking Mexicans themselves. But what Dobbs actually said in the video _you_ linked to was that “Mexicans are currently at war with America” and are “trying to destroy America”. Nothing about illegal immigrants. Nothing about border security. Nothing about national sovereignty. _You_ linked to something saying that _all_ Mexicans are bad people who are out to get us. Nor is that video the only instance of you doing so; I’ve already pointed out several others. > [@](#): > > As to the theory about a North American Union and the Amero, regardless of whether you consider that plausible (I agree it is far out there), you don’t think there are good reasons to oppose such a thing other than hating Mexicans?:smack: No, I don’t think there are good reasons top oppose such things other than hating Mexicans. There is not now and never has been the slightest piece of evidence that there was every any plan for either of these two things. So why do we hear about these two things from the far right? Simply because the far right wants to convince people that Mexicans are trying to destroy our country because that will increase the amount of hatred for Mexicans. Can you name any person who believes in either of these conspiracy theories and does not hate Mexicans generally? (I’m glad to hear you saying these things are “far out there” since it represents a complete turnaround from your previous threads, where you made dozens of posts assuring me that the process for replacing the dollar with the Amero and creating the North American Union was already underway. > [@](#): > > I haven’t made “a huge number” of mistakes. There were TWO videos I posted on a thread from a LONG time ago that were posted by mistake. And there’s also the fact that you linked to [rense.com](http://rense.com), which is full of Holocaust denial and Hitler-worship. Wouldn’t want to forget that. And then we’ve got the article John Denson. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t say that Hitler was a good person! Are you delusional? He was providing some much needed context to an important period in our history. The reason Hitler was allowed to come to power in the first place was due to praying upon the grievances of the German people that arose from the unfair Versailles Treaty. It has been said that our involvement in World War I set in motion the events that led to World War II. The Versailles Treaty was a large part of that. Nevertheless, there is the unfortunate fact that Hitler killed millions of people merely because they were Jews or members of some other group labeled inferior. When Denson says that Hitler “only” wanted to avenge the Versailles Treaty and fight communism, he apparently also believes that Hitler did not want to exterminate the Jews and others, which is akin to saying that the Holocaust is a hoax. Now you’ve acknowledged that the Holocaust is real, so how do you square that with what Denson says? > [@](#): > > Neither I, nor Denson are saying that Hitler was a good guy. What we are saying is that he drew upon real, justified anger of the German people against the aggression and imposition of the United States in their affairs. Again, what about that little business with the Jews? Was that drawing on “real, justified anger” too? Did the Jews also “share some of the blame” for it? If not, then how can this be anything other than an attempt to downplay or deny the Holocaust? > [@](#): > > What you are confusing is being anti Israel or anti Israel Lobby is much different from hating all Jews. Once again I ask you, when have I’ve ever mentioned the Israel Lobby? PLease answer. > [@](#): > > Let me ask you this: > > Why is an Israeli life worth more than a Palestinian life? Okay, I give up. Why do you think that an Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian life? > [@](#): > > Why can’t we safely eliminate the undue and disproportionate influence that Israel exerts over our foreign policy and the media? That disproportionate influence exists in your head but not in reality. > [@](#): > > Now, this one is truly insane. You think THAT quote is proof of racism? Really? Your serious, aren’t you? At WORST this seems like a minor oversight. Not acknowledging the existence of slavery is “a minor oversight”. It seems pretty major to me. > [@](#): > > What website or newspaper do you read that you can vouch for EVERYTHING they ever printed? This is getting ridiculous. Let me explain something. When I listen to NPR, I know I won’t hear that the Holocaust is a hoax. When I log on to kos, I know I won’t read see an endorsement of David Duke for President. When I watched the Daily Show, I won’t see a claim that American Jews are conspiring to take over the country. I can find news sources that aren’t routinely racist and antisemitic. Why can’t you? > [@](#): > > Once you cross the line towards accusing someone of racism, things can get ugly. > > You don’t really want to go there with me, I promise you. Oooh, a threat. I like threats. Tell me what you’re going to do to me once things get ugly. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/993 "2010-09-14T02:39:27Z")
> [@blanx](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Who would you trust to do the audit of Fort Knox, **jrodefeld**? > > Who? Who can heed his country’s call? > > **Ron Paul** He can audit gold! Turns out that auditing the gold at Fort Knox isn’t a completely novel idea. To quote from Richard Shenkman & Kurt Reiger’s “One Night Stands with American History,” pg. 250-51\*: “One of the least serious charges ever made against the New Deal Democrats was that they had stolen the gold in Fort Knox. Only a few crackpots believed the accusation\*\*. But in 1953, the Daughters of the American Revolution forced Dwight Eisenhower, the first Republican president in twenty years, to have the gold counted. Investigators found that the Fort contained $30,442,415,581.70 worth of the precious metal. That was ten dollars less than it should have been. Mrs. Georgia Clark, treasurer of the United States under the Democrats, sent the government a check to cover the loss.” So, $10 over 20 years…good God, at that rate, the government may have stolen uncounted twenties of dollars worth of gold since the last audit! \*Their source: Eric F. Goldman, “The Crucial Decade – And After: America, 1945-1960” (Vintage Books, 1960), p. 239 \*\*The more things change… ---
**Author:** ![jrodefeld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jrodefeld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrodefeld)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/994 "2010-09-14T03:25:46Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > > [@blanx](#): > > > > Who? Who can heed his country’s call? > > > > **Ron Paul** He can audit gold! > > Turns out that auditing the gold at Fort Knox isn’t a completely novel idea. To quote from Richard Shenkman & Kurt Reiger’s “One Night Stands with American History,” pg. 250-51\*: > > “One of the least serious charges ever made against the New Deal Democrats was that they had stolen the gold in Fort Knox. Only a few crackpots believed the accusation\*\*. But in 1953, the Daughters of the American Revolution forced Dwight Eisenhower, the first Republican president in twenty years, to have the gold counted. Investigators found that the Fort contained $30,442,415,581.70 worth of the precious metal. That was ten dollars less than it should have been. Mrs. Georgia Clark, treasurer of the United States under the Democrats, sent the government a check to cover the loss.” > > So, $10 over 20 years…good God, at that rate, the government may have stolen uncounted twenties of dollars worth of gold since the last audit! > \*Their source: Eric F. Goldman, “The Crucial Decade – And After: America, 1945-1960” (Vintage Books, 1960), p. 239 > \*\*The more things change… This is dumb. I am not associating the desire to audit the gold with ANY conspiracy theory whatsoever. If your point is, in 1953 the gold was there, what dioes that prove? I want to open up ALL economic and financial entities to increased oversight and scrutiny. I would start with the Federal Reserve and continue on to Fort Knox. Plus, when the dollar is wiped out through hyperinflation and we decide to start over with a sound dollar backed by gold, we should know how much gold is there, right? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/995 "2010-09-14T03:27:59Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > This is dumb. I am not associating the desire to audit the gold with ANY conspiracy theory whatsoever. If your point is, in 1953 the gold was there, what dioes that prove? I want to open up ALL economic and financial entities to increased oversight and scrutiny. I would start with the Federal Reserve and continue on to Fort Knox. So who would you have perform this audit? ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/996 "2010-09-14T04:09:48Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Plus, when the dollar is wiped out through hyperinflation… If you’re so sure you hyperinflation is going to imminent, why don’t I lend you $1000 at a 200% interest rate. You can pay me back at any time in next 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/997 "2010-09-14T04:25:02Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > If your point is, in 1953 the gold was there, what dioes that prove? Nothing really, although “The last time crackpots wanted Fort Knox audited, they came up with bupkiss, therefore they’ll find nothing now” is logically equivalent to your “The Gulf of Tonkin was a fraud to get the US into a war, therefore Pearl Harbor must have been, too.” ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/998 "2010-09-14T18:17:11Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > This is dumb. I am not associating the desire to audit the gold with ANY conspiracy theory whatsoever. > [@jrodefeld](#): > > > [@Oldeb](#): > > > > Oh, the CIA isn’t doing the dumping. Sorry if I was unclear. According to the esteemed Mr. Paul the CIA is stealing it. > > You have this tone that implies believing such a thing is ludicrous. In fact to an educated mind, it is highly believable. So you think it’s “highly believable” that the CIA is stealing the gold from Fort Knox, but you aren’t pushing any conspiracy theory with you audit demands. Does that 'bout sum it up? ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/999 "2010-09-14T18:43:10Z")
I always have to laught at the term “conspiricy theorist” like ANYONE who even suggests a conspiricy of any kind is a nutcase. Conspiricies happen all the time. This all started after the Kennedy assasination, to make sure that anyone suggesting something other that the governments official explaination would not be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784/1000 "2010-09-14T18:50:15Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > This all started after the Kennedy assasination, to make sure that anyone suggesting something other that the governments official explaination would not be taken seriously. Not in this thread, please. Not every discussion is an excuse to talk about the assassination of JFK. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-ones-for-the-obama-loyalists-pay-attention/550784.md?page=51)