This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention.

Did you look at any of my links? Did you watch that documentary? By that comment I meant that the article is not very convincing and goes into great detail to “debunk” the true points that would lead one to believe that FDR knew of the attack on Pearl Harbor beforehand.

Once you read my links and post back here, we can continue this conversation.

How about exploitation BY the government? Okay, please read this entire article and get back to me, okay?:

Read the rest: Classical Economics vs. The Exploitation Theory | George Reisman

Where did you go to school? Child laborers and wage slaves? For the sake of argument, suppose I endorse laws against child labor and basic safety regulations, but no more. How in your mind, in a true free market with a stable dollar and high productive capacity would this fantasy land of endless exploitation by greedy capitalists and businessmen operate? Don’t you understand that in the absence of government subsidies and regulation, businessmen grow wealthy by provided value to others?

Really, read the above linked article. It does a pretty good job destroying the propagandistic version of history you were taught in school.

I want to hear your full rebuttal of the contents of that article.

You’ll get a full rebuttal when you present a full thesis of your own, not some multi-page quotation from one or another of your heroes.

I’m tired of your constant insults. You have zero idea of my background, and zero authority to denigrate it. Disagreement with you does not equate to being incorrect.

I remember being twenty five years old, and believing that I really understood the world and knew everything about it. I hope that I wasn’t as insufferable then as you are now. But regardless, I’ve learned quite a lot in the interim. Enough to know just how little I really did know, and how little I really understood. Perhaps some day you too will become less obnoxious and more – well, if not wise, at least experienced.

No, bailing out the banks was not necessary. Okay, so the fed easy money creates a giant bubble right? Its unsustainable. The laws of economics say that this bubble must deflate. With that deflation, there will be some pain and agony as the economy rebalances and fiscal discipline and a solid foundation are restored. THIS MARKET CORRECTION HAS TO OCCUR!! There is no getting around that fact. By reinflating the bubble, the government has only prevented the inevitable and in the process made the necessary correction that much larger and more painful.

Does this make any sense to you? By preventing the correction the pain is drawn out and exacerbated. We KNOW the debt will have to be paid one way or the other, the day of reckoning is coming. The dangers of Keynesian policies is once a large enough crisis hits, and the stimulus policies fail to work, the Fed will print more and more money threatening hyperinflation.

As painful in the short term as a market correction may be, it is far better to have it now that later or destroy the dollar through endless printing of money.

The Republican party bought into Keynesianism whole heartedly from Nixon onward. There hasn’t been significant differences in economic policy for decades. We actually didn’t have a true surplus in the 90s, we had a bubble. That bubble burst in 2000, but was promptly reinflated. The surplus was, in fact a hoax.

Read this:

The unemployment numbers are immaterial. The issue is allowing the market correction to occur and the liquidation of bad debt. There was high employment during WWII and war is never good for the economy. You haven’t addressed the point I made about the Depression of 1920-21 in which government pursued a hands off approach and we experienced a prompt recovery. My policies have clearly worked in practice but yours have not.

Actually it increased steadily. The issue is the linking to gold. Until the breakdown of the bretton woods agreement in 1971, there was a limit to the creation of money. After that point the deficits and national debt skyrocketed. But as the Austrians could tell you, that is the inevitable conclusion of central banking and interventionist economics. The Fed has existed for one hundred years and you point to a mere fifteen-twenty year period of moderate success as far as the debt is concerned? Thats not a very good track record.

Government would not be controlling prices and the market. You are really confused here. I can only suggest you spend some time reading about sound money to understand these issues.

Yeah, appointed by Bush and reappointed by Obama. There is no difference between the parties. Ron Paul criticized him continually over the years for his role in inflating the housing bubble and many other issues. Just search Ron Paul vs Bernanke on youtube and you will see a number of fascinating exchanges.

Some consider Reagan a traitor because he tarnished the name of Free Markets in peoples minds by rhetorically claiming to be for small government, but in actuality pursuing policies that were the opposite.

Therefore people like you claim that “free markets failed” because of the disaster caused by the Reagan administration.

You know, I don’t really want to get into the vaccination thing on this thread. It is more a matter of opinion and personal preference. I have read a number of articles by doctors and scientists warning about the negative effects of long term vaccinations. I may link to some here at another point. But its perfectly fine if you believe in vaccines. I just have a problem when the government is mandating I do ANYTHING in relation to my personal health care. I should still have some choice in the matter. If the government can inject anything into my arm, then I am not free.

That is how I look at it.

I think I have demonstrated an ability to easily articulate a defense of these positions that I am taking. Sometimes I know of another author who offers such a simple and articulate explanation of a problem that I know I can’t improve on it, so I link to it.

The goal here is to defend my positions. If another author proves my point, then why would you have a problem with me linking to them? I am trying to establish that it is not just me randomly taking positions, but there is a long line of intellectual scholars behind what I say.

I can clearly articulate a defense of every postion I have taken. But there are youtube videos and other articles which back up my point. You don’t have to read the links. They are there for those who want to learn more. The point is you DON’T have to take my word for it. You can read from others as well.

The government has never had mandatory vaccinations. You are free to be home schooled if vaccinations are considered tyrannical in your religion.

:eek::eek::eek: Holy shit. “Everything the Obama Administration has proposed is consistent with a Constitutional Republic.” I’ll just stop right there. I need a minute.


You have got to be fucking shitting me. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The wars are unconstitutional (only congress can declare war), the health care bill is unconstitutional (the mandate), suspension of habeas corpus is a violation of the bill of rights, and there is so much more it would take multiple pages to chronicle the constitutional violations perpetrated by the Obama Administration.

And yes, it is not hard to objectively figure out what the framers intended by the Constitution. If the Supreme Court decreed that the sky was orange, would you believe them or your own eyes? That is what you are arguing here.

Would you have rejected the polio vaccine? You have to know it defeated a disease that crippled and killed a lot of kids at one time. Now it is gone. Do you have a right to allow your kids to get crippled because of your distorted concept of personal rights to make a decision for yourself, no matter how damaging and stupid it would be?

We have activist judges you will interpret the Constitution so broadly as for it to have no meaning whatsoever. The founders advocated that the states had an ability to nullify unconstitutional laws. They believed that more than one authority should be allowed to interpret the constitution. If I read the constitution and it says that, “only congress shall declare war” and the Supreme Court says that the Iraq war is Constitutional, I know they are wrong. The function of the Supreme Court is to safeguard the constitution. They are not always right in their interpretation. The people need to defend the Constitution as well. Every federal official takes an oath to defend the Constitution. Any of us can read the constitution and see what it says. It is our job to elect Supreme Court nominees who will interpret the Constitution correctly. Sadly, we haven’t been doing a very good job.

Thats why I believe the people and the States should be allowed to Nullify unconstitutional federal laws.

Do you agree that under our system, the way the founders intended, there are certain things the Federal Government CANNOT do no matter what?

Jesus, put down the propaganda and fear mongering for a second. I find it hilarious how your mind works. I say freedom, you think slavery. I say property rights, you think exploitation. I say sound money, you think anarchy and economy ruin.

Do you have any fear of abusive governments? Or do you save all your fear and hysteria for railing against freedom and property rights?

There is none so blind as those who choose not to see.

I am sure I will grow and become more wise as I get older. This is a debate and I want people to respond to the points I make. What is wrong with linking to another article? The reason I do it is that I can’t fully articulate all the complex points I want to make in the limited space I have here. Plus, there are many articles and quotations of brilliant men who can express certain ideas better than I can. If they support my points, why shouldn’t I link to it?

Don’t take the insults personally. I don’t mean anything by it, I just get carried away at times. No offense is intended.

So why have none of those grievous tyrannies been overturned by the Supreme Court? It’s not like all of these things happened in a vacuum. You have so little faith in the Constitution, you cannot accept that the system could possibly right a wrong within the process provided by the Constitution, so the only recourse is nullification and civil disobedience.

And yet you think it is impossible for either a majority in Congress, the President, or at least five members of the Supreme Court to figure out.

Free to be home schooled? Do you think that is a rational choice for most people? The choice of education and vaccinations or no education and no vaccinations is no choice at all.

No, I probably would not have rejected the polio vaccine. Thats not the point. If something makes sense, there should be no reason to mandate a person get it. They will do it on their own.

Okay, all wars since WWII have been unconstitutional. I know this because the constitution says, “Only Congress can declare war”. Is there something I am missing here? Congress hasn’t declared war since WWII.

On that and numerous other issues our government breaks the Constitution and the Supreme Court allows it to occur. This means THEY are failing in their job.

Then the Founders failed in their job, because they created the Constitution that permits failure.

Why do you hate the Constitution?

So you think you are entitled to an education funded by taxes stolen from your neighbor?

I want to make the point now that I have answered every single reply to my thread. I’m sure there will be more, but I figure I have gotten my positions out there.

It is up to you all to reflect on what I have written and go through the links and learn your history. I have a few suggestions by way of summary. The critical areas of study if one desires to become politically astute is as follows:

1. The Federal Reserve and the banking system.

Study the ways the bankers hijacked our economy. Learn how the banking system really works. It is a fascinating study.

Books I recommend:

The Creature from Jekyl Island by G Edward Griffin

Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country, by William Greider

2. Study the great works of Austrian economists and libertarian thinkers

Books I recommend:

Individualism and Economic Order by F. A. Hayek

Human Action: A Treatise on Economics by Ludwig von Mises

The Road to Serfdom: Fiftieth Anniversary Edition by F. A. Hayek

A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism by Hans-Hermann Hoppe

The Ethics of Liberty by Murray N. Rothbard

The Law by Frederic Bastiat
3. Other books of merit that you should all read

End the Fed by Ron Paul

Lies the Government Told You by Andrew Napolitano

What Has Government Done to Our Money? by Murray N Rothbard

Now if you actually spend the time with this material and let it sink in and become more aware of current events of the next few years, I believe you will be sold on the core truths these works contain. I have noticed many of you are still stubbornly clinging to the statist propaganda that has been drilled into your head.

I promise that you will see the world differently once you understand the true economic effects of government policy. You may even wise up a little and reject big government and authoritarianism outright.

Whatever the case, I hope I was able to shine some light in the darkness to light the way to truth and liberty.

I am going to take a break. Feel free to respond in summary of this exercise. I will be back later.