Thanks for the input here, Sam. You are absolutely correct in what you say. Mises titled his Magnum Opus Human Action because he argued that the variety of human behavior, wants and desires is so complex that it cannot be centrally planned and predicted.
I’d watch out with the insults. They don’t bother me, but you will get banned eventually.
I know more about economics than you do. This is a fact. You know more about pretend-fantasy economics. Your knowledge of pretend-fantasy economics is vast and commendable. But ultimately as useless as Skald the Rhymer’s knowledge of the Lord of the Rings.
You are a fan of a fiction that makes you happy, in that I am glad you have it. But the things you are arguing are as fanciful and imaginary as hobbits and giant eagles. I’m sorry to play Gollum to your ring finger, but it had to be said. You’ve been shown dozens of times in this very thread that the things you are arguing for are not true. Why don’t you address those things instead of offering out reading assignments.
If you actually understand what you read, you should be able to paraphrase it. Make your own arguments.
Well, at least you admit it. As long as you acknowledge that the government and policies you pursue are totally contrary to the beliefs and desires of the founding fathers, you will have some credibility.
Would you support amending the Constitution to allow the federal government to do the things it currently does, keeping the restrictions that the founders desired?
Or would you rather we disposed of the Constitution entirely?
If you answered the latter then you would be far more honest than most politicians who feed us this bullshit about how they are following the Constitution and respect the founders.
At least be honest about it.
We are living in accordance with the constitution now. At least that’s what the SCOTUS thinks. And I suspect they understand the issue better than you.
Oh, you mean like Pertussis, which just killed some kids - no biggie, right? Not like you knew 'em or anything, or the thousands who have suffered with whooping cough.
OK, that does it. TELL ME HOW GETTING POLIO MAKES OUR IMMUNE SYSTEMS STRONGER. GO ON, TELL ME!
Tell me how getting smallpox makes us stronger?
Tell us how becoming deaf from having the mumps makes us stronger, the possible development of encephalitis or meningitis makes us stronger?
Tell us how dying of the flu makes us stronger.
Tell us how coughing for 24 hours straight (and sometimes dying) from whooping cough makes us ‘stronger’
Go on, tell us!
Bullshit. Your defenses are always vulnerable to diseases and virii unless you had exposure. The graveyards have been filled with perfectly healthy babies whose immune systems were fine - the disease didn’t give a damn.
Your body isn’t a fucking WoW character, it won’t ‘level up’ from doing exercises.
Bullshit - total excrement and deception taken from the lowest depths of the anti-vax liars bin.
Okay then, here you go:
**"[America’s] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is in the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, FREEDOM, INDEPENDENCE, PEACE. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice."
"[America] has . . . respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own. She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings . . . Whenever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own . . . She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change form liberty to force . . . She might become the dictatress of the world . . . "**
- John Adams
**“Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life; second, to liberty; third, to property; together with the right to support and defend them in the best manner they can. These are evident branches of … the duty of self-preservation, commonly called the first law of nature. All men have a right to remain in a state of nature as long as they please; and in case of intolerable oppression, civil or religious, to leave the society they belong to, and ernter into another… Now what liberty can there be where property is taken away without consent?”
“The said constitution shall never be construed to authorize congress to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.”**
- Samuel Adams
**“They that would give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
“Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature.”**
- Ben Franklin
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
- Patrick Henry
**“And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.”
“I think our governments will remain virtuous for many centuries; as long as they are chiefly agricultural; and this will be as long as there shall be vacant lands in any part of America. When they get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, they will become corrupt as in Europe.”
“It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.”
“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.”
“No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
“In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.”**
- Thomas Jefferson
**“History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance.”
“There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent an sudden usurpation.”**
- James Madison
**“THESE are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Britain, with an army to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to TAX) but “to BIND us in ALL CASES WHATSOEVER” and if being bound in that manner, is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a power can belong only to God.” “Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.”
“Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.”**
- Thomas Paine
**“Government is not reason; it is not eloqence; it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”
“The thing that separates the American Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather die on his feet, than live on his knees!”
“The time is now near at hand which must probably determine whether Americans are to be freemen or slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their houses and farms are to be pillaged and destroyed, and themselves consigned to a state of wretchedness from which no human efforts will deliver them.”**
- George Washington
Really, is there any doubt that the founders were libertarians? They were also against bankers and made counterfeiting a crime punishable by death!
A previous poster claimed that because a quote or two was improperly attributed to the founders, it invalidates my point. Hardly.
I need a new irony meter.
I can’t convince you so I am going to stop talking about why I personally have found more success in healthy living and a reliance on Eastern Medicine.
It is hardly relevant to the topic at hand. If you want to believe in everything from Western Medicine, be my guest. Knock yourself out.
By the way, I am the healthiest person I know. I have found great personal success for my own health. My mom is an ayurvedic medical practitioner and does massage. She is vibrantly healthy in her early fifties. Everyone I know who follows these principles is extremely healthy. Those who only see conventional doctors are sick and dealing with multiple chronic illnesses from my experience.
Lets deal with the larger issues at hand.
You cannot convince me because you have nothing to convince me with. You are trying to imply that I am closed minded to cover for a complete lack of evidence. If you had anything worthwhile I’d be listening, but after decades, if not centuries there is nothing to alternative meds besides anecdotes.
Western medicine is far from perfect, it has large gaps and needs lots of work to make decisions. But it is far better than the ‘make shit up’ schools that alternative medicines work with.
You have only yourself as an example, that doesn’t come up to the reality of alt meds failing on all levels.
Beyond the incredibly condescending tone and undeserved attitude of superiority, you completely missed the point. The Liberty Dollar does not look like the US Dollar. At ALL. Nobody would be confused, nor would anybody mistake it for counterfeiting.
But leaving that aside, I am advocating for the private money system that Hayek argued for. Was Hayek also too stupid to know that he was advocating for something that we already had (according to you)? The intricacies of monetary policy and banking elude you.
Here, read this. THIS is what I am advocating for:
What is wrong with this? Nobel Laurette Hayek advocated for the same thing I do. I think it is you who fails to understand the currency laws.
What is wrong with what I, Ron Paul and FA Hayek are proposing?
Since I am your favorite libertarian apparently, you wouldn’t mind engaging in this discussion.
I have been cutting you some slack, but this is over the line and too blatant to ignore.
This is a(nother) Warning that your behavior is going to jeopardize your posting privileges.
= = =
EVERYONE else, you need to ratchet back on the language, as well.
[ /Moderating ]
Wow, I have never seen anyone with a greater unjustified sense of superiority. You think you are winning this debate? Are you kidding me? You are the one who is failing repeatedly to acknowledge the real issues that I am bringing up.
You were saying that it is inconsistent for a libertarian to oppose vaccinations in schools because people are “free” to home school their kids. I said most people don’t have that choice, and you claim that is inconsistent with libertarianism, implying that libertarians don’t believe in public schools.
I am saying we SHOULD have public schools but the federal government should stay out of the matter. Only the parents should say whether or not their children need psychotropic drugs or vaccinations. It shouldn’t be a requirement to simple get an education.
Tell me how any of this is inconsistent with libertarianism?
“The thing that separates the American Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather die on his feet, than live on his knees!”
Is incorrect, it’s
“It’s better to die upon your feet than to live upon your knees”
By Zapata… the only sites saying George said it are a number of political ones.
Do you ever actually fact check anything?
Right, but why can you not acknowledge that what you are describing is very different from the Hayekian proposal for private money and the denationalization of money? If the vast majority of transactions are REQUIRED by law to be made in dollars, there can’t really be viable competing currencies, right?
Okay, I will go over this for the last time. Please pay attention.
Greenspan IN HIS YOUTH was influenced by Ayn Rand and believed in the Gold Standard.
He COMPLETELY abandoned these ideals when he became Fed chairman and never governed according to libertarian principles. Again, Austrians believe there shouldn’t be a central bank AT ALL.
Is this clear? There are no Austrian economists or libertarians I know of who defend Greenspan and his policies.
If you got success from any treatment, you would become a believer. Period.
You are simply displaying your close mindedness.
Why do you think homeopathy and various alternative therapies have lasted so long? How are so many quacks and charlatans getting away with this stuff for so long?
We can disagree on the various merits of vaccinations and homeopathy, but any learned person will not be able to dispute the teachings of Austrian economics and Constitutional Law, both of which I am extremely educated.
There’s a sale on irony meters at Best Buy.
Better stock up on them by the gross.
I have implied no such thing. You stated you are entitled to send your unvaccinated children to public schools, because it is too inconvenient to home school them. That is what is inconsistent with libertarianism; your sense of entitlement, and unwillingness to accept personal responsibility for the consequences of your actions. Disgraceful.
Pony up the extra dough and get the logarithmic models. They are well worth the extra cost.
Back off. This thread has too many personal comments as it is.
[ /Moderating ]