This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention.

No actually they don’t. I like to defer to the AUTHORS of the document. I consider them a little more trustworthy than some activist that is a corporate crony, no better than a lawyer who finds a “legal” way to get a murderer off the hook.

The Constitution is simple enough that we can all read it and understand it. And we can and should respect the original intent.

If you believe it should serve as an arbitrary limit on government and a protector of the peoples rights, then our current government does not reflect this.

You seem to endorse the school of thought that believes in the Constitution as a “living document”, essentially rendering it meaningless. As Thomas Jefferson said:

**“Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction.” **

–Thomas Jefferson to Wilson Nicholas, 1803. ME 10:419

We have made our Constitution a blank paper by construction, rendering it meaningless. What is left to protect the peoples liberties?

We should enforce it vigorously and allow the FEDERAL government to do only the expressly delegated functions. Over time we need to amend the Constitution as we did by freeing the slaves and allowing women to vote. Our constitution was designed to change and adapt over time.

It was NOT designed to be ignored.

No use in trying to convince you so I won’t bother. I simply hope you visit the links I have posted on the subject and open your mind up to the possibility of ill effects coming from over vaccinations of children.

Nobody else on this? Alright then.

Wrong. Vaccines are tested and retested.

This is simply not true. The only cases where this happens are with the few remaining Polio cases in the world, and the conditions for that are grossly exagerrated by the anti-vax crowd.

I find it amusing that you have to reach back over 34 years to find a problem and then claim (after the h1N1 vaccine needed to be used again - almost without any surprise incidents) that not enough research is done on them.

Ah yes, we didn’t all fall dead in the streets so the epidemic was bullshit. Never mind the hundreds of dead and thousands hospitalized in Mexico - that is just bullshit, right?

So far, so good.

Not without stimulous it doesn’t. Without vaccines that means you have to catch the disease or be one of the few very rare who are naturally immune. The former is often deadly, and folks depending on the latter have filled graveyards.

Lie. Mercury has been removed for vaccines for ages and was in miniscule quantities to begin with. Standing next to someone changing his contact lenses or eating a fish would get your more mercury.

Actually, at this point we do.

In any profession there are always going to be cranks. More to the point what have your doctors produced beyond some quotes and the utterly discredited and cruel Wakefield ‘study’?

It is called ‘oversight’. Given the amount of medications on the market it is very low. Vaccines are also in a different category than Rx perscription meds.

Oh, gee, I dunno, because their actions have ended smallpox, which had a 1/2 billion corpses to its name, and polio, and hordes of other diseases.

And yet you smear some very good medications simply on rumor, misinformation, and fear mongering. You have provided nothing solid, and the biggest complaints you have are based on lies or are grossly outdated.

:smiley: Fair enough. I can see how you consider this a case of the pot calling the kettle black. But I do engage with the issues and address the points directly without deliberate obfuscation, as some other posters do.

I just hope more engage directly on a substantial level, rather than dealing with this petty bullshit and so many are focusing on.

Way to dodge the questions.

Sorry, but your links just went to a bunch of hysterical lies told by anti-vax murderers. Fear-mongering without a shred of evidence doesn’t impress me.

Did you, in turn, even look at the real cases I brought up? Such as the ones to the CA outbreak of pertussis that has killed 8 children thus far and caused by declining vaccination rates? Any answer for that or just more grumping about ‘No use’?

How about when anti-vaxxers decided to harass a parents whose kids died of pertussis.

The only ‘ill effects’ are coming from anti-vaxers. Plain and simple.

Look, there is quite a bit of scientific evidence to support alternative medical approaches (some more than others). Oftentimes an agency with an agenda will dismiss the evidence that exists, so people like you don’t hear about it.

Western medicine is very good at some things. But I don’t believe the way to true health is through surgery and drugs, which are the primary modalities that are used.

To find true health I have found that Eastern medicine and diet and even spirituality come into play.

You may simply have not been exposed to the complexities of many eastern schools of medicine, so you are speaking out of ignorance.

How can you claim that alternative medicine “fails” on all levels? What do you base that on? Sometimes the subjective experience and resulting health of the patients is much more important than some arbitrary study that meets some criteria in peer reviewed journals (much of this stuff HAS been validated in double blind studies, by the way).

There IS a lot of bullshit out there too. There is no question about that.

I would like to drop the antivax nonsense. But the hits just keep on coming.

In addition to the WWI-era influenza example that tomndebb supplied (in which many young healthy adults died), there’s our very recent experience with H1N1 flu that contradicts your blithe assumption that being young and healthy will ward off infectious disease.

*"A review of H1N1 flu shows that the virus is causing critical illness mostly in young adults. H1N1 flu in young adults is associated with low levels of oxygen, multi-system organ failure, and the need for longer prolonged respiratory support with mechanical ventilation. The findings are due for publication November 4 in JAMA, and show that H1N1 flu is especially severe among healthy adolescents and adults between the ages of 10 and 60 years. *(bolding added).

The authors write that H1N1 flu follows”… a pattern reminiscent of the W-shaped curve [rise and fall in the population mortality rate for the disease, corresponding to age at death] previously seen only during the 1918 H1N1 Spanish pandemic."

So the H1N1 outbreak is just one demonstration it’s not just the feeble elderly getting extremely sick and dying from preventable infectious disease, but in particular younger previously healthy adults were stricken badly by this form of the disease. And in the case of other vaccine-preventable diseases similar populations can experience nasty consequences, not just kids (for example, I’m sure jrodefeld would not enjoy a nice case of mumps or chickenpox).

Yo, jrodefeld! Is any of this getting through, or are you just dismissing it as “propaganda” while getting the real deal from fellow antivaxers at those sites you linked to?

This is another misconception gained by getting all your info from alt med sites and practitioners. Diet and exercise are a major focus in mainstream medicine. It’s when people don’t follow advice in these areas that pharmacologic therapy and other modalities come into play. Attempts by alt med to co-opt diet (with a plethora of “super” supplements, “miracle” foods and other bad recommendations) don’t change the facts.

This thread demonstrates that many other posters have taken the time and trouble to answer (and refute) the arguments jrodefeld has raised. He, on the other hand, merely repeats himself and calls us close-minded.

jrodefeld is apparently afraid to do the reading that would overturn his cherished views.

I have seen that quote attributed to George Washington over and over and over again. It is true that a number of quotes have been mis-attributed and I make an effort to check everything I post, but I do make some mistakes.

If I make an error you are certainly within your rights to correct me. But sometimes you miss the forest for the trees. Whether it was Zapata or George Washington it is a very good libertarian quote. But try to see the big picture of what I am saying.

I don’t know that you are correct, but there are many reputable websites claiming Washington said this, so “fact checking” is made more difficult.

My main point was about psychotropic drugs, not vaccinations. You really don’t have a problem with schools drugging normal kids because they don’t want to deal with normal childhood behavior? I have a problem with this. You apparently do not.

“fairly high number” is not specific nor was it meant to be. I could have said “some”, would that have made you happy? There is overwhelming evidence for this, and at least if you are honest you should be concerned about that.

There are no statistics kept about the problems CAUSED by vaccinations giving us a false sense of security. Read this:

There are numerous examples of this. Don’t dismiss it.

What is that supposed to mean?

Nonsense. To date any study of altmed that shows a hint of a positive result gets huge media attention. But closer examination shows shortcomings or failures and it often gets filedrawered upon follow-up studies.

Because it is true.

The record of evidence.

That is a pathetic end-run around the scientific method and is what gets people in trouble in the first place. Anecdotes and your personal experiences are simply are not serious evidence no matter how much you whine about it.

No, it has not. Even the link that you provided show the bankrupcy of altmed evidence when the best they could come up with was obscure and rather dated ‘studies’.

I didn’t really WANT to discuss vaccinations, other posters dragged up the issue and I responded. I would like to discuss the economy and libertarian philosophy.

By the way, you will not be convinced by listening to me. You should read von Mises, Ron Paul and other libertarian books to get a firm grasp of the philosophy.

You may not be convinced, but you will gain newfound respect and admiration for the deep thinkers and philosophers of liberty.

I highly recommend the effort.

You are not really addressing the main point I made in that post. Try again.

I am not talking about vaccinations anymore. Everyone, SHUT UP about this issue.

I agree that the point is bullshit and the presidents skin color is meaningless, but I wouldn’t call Obama a Marxist. I don’t know your political views, Clothahump, but we should call Obama a Corporate puppet, doing the bidding of his banking masters and the military industrial complex.

I doubt he really has any solid views or convictions other than looking good for the camera. He is an actor hired to play a part in my view.

You are completely missing the point. I agree “over the infinite horizen” is a bad way to phrase the issue. But people are really talking about a forty to fifty year period. That is all. Our dollar won’t last that long.

Maybe it might drop if you didn’t keep trying to get in ‘the last word’ such as with the propaganda you posted in 730. You keep saying you want to drop it and then plop another load of anti-vax propaganda in the thread.

Then you whine when people reply to it and say you want to drop the issue and then plop another load of anti-vax propaganda in the thread.

How? People can be vaccinated and receive homeopathy at the same time.
Why would you believe the government should limit access to a medical treatment than you don’t approve of? What about personal freedom?

NOT AMONG HEALTHY PEOPLE! Healthy people do not die of the flu. There was a swine flu vaccine because people were made to be hysterical about a non event. No healthy person died from the swine flu. This was a racket.

I’d want to walk away from talking about vaccinations too if I were you. It doesn’t do much for your credibility. It kinda makes you look like don’t really look into things very well and believe crazy conspiracy theories.

I’d probably stop talking about Homeopathy too.