This One's for The Obama Loyalists, Pay Attention.

Because it is. Have you followed up or researched any of the references in the links you provide?! Ever? The last bit you quoted (and did not attribute) was a perfect example - they cited a case study done in Sweden and it concerned a reaction to the vaccine that effected a single digit number of children (the vaccine had been given universally and yet the article cites the study as if it were proof that everyone reacts horribly to vaccines.

That is propaganda and hysteria - you are unwilling to look any further than the shiny webpages to se the lies and deception behind it. This is not a failing on my part.

Funny, I keep sending paleontologists pictures of Jesus riding dinosaurs and they won’t budge an inch on the idea that Jesus rode dinosaurs. Poor evidence has a habit of not doing what you want, in case you hadn’t noticed.

:rolleyes: I know the freaking risks -oh mighty beater of straw. They are minimal in comparison to the benefits. What you are supporting is a sickening fearmongering group of people who would have us abandon some or all of them via a campaign of lies, hatred, intimidation, fear-mongering, horrible science and propaganda. You’ve linked to their articles several times and said things that might as well have come out of their mouths.

Meanwhile while you bawl and whine and pout about me not budging and inch you hypocritically ignore how people with your attitude have caused Pertussis breakouts that have killed children.

But hey, I must be the bad guy with no credibility because when I look at the stuff you spray here like a fleeing squid I actually bother to look into it and see how studies are being misused and risks grossly exaggerated - all you have to do is ignore some preventable kid’s deaths to be credible in your own mind.

Yeah, pretty good, huh? Although Sam Stone takes your side on the issue of vaccines he clearly is advocating for Austrian economics. You know that right?

Maybe he explains it in a way which is more palatable to you, but most here have parroted standard Keynesian jargon repeated endlessly, while Sam and myself are the voices of reason on the subject of correct economic policy.

Every form of quackery has had testimonials from people deluded into thinking it helped them. The lists of testimonials from the quacks somehow never include the people who found it was bunkum.

And as a presumably consenting adult* you should have the right to perform whatever therapies you want on yourself. You do not have the right to market bogus therapies to others to make money, or to inflict them on minors who cannot properly consent.

No conspiracy (that’s your mindset speaking). Just sleazes and know-nothings trying to make money the old-fashioned way.

Speaking of not being closed-minded, did you read the linked abstract to the Ernst paper, which searched the Cochrane systematic reviews database of published papers, and could not find a single one that validated homeopathy? Ernst, after all, is a distinguished university professor of complementary/alternative medicine, not someone who automatically dismisses all alternative medicine. Where are the systematic reviews vindicating homeopathy?

*nah, too tempting.

Homeopathy has no basis other than deceit:

There is no clinic evidence that supports this claim. It is a total fraud. I oppose any freedom that permits quacks to make health claims for such nostrums.

Well, I will demonstrate some humility, just for you septimus. Yes, I have made mistakes. I have come off as arrogant and can see why that turned off some of you, who would otherwise be receptive. I certainly understand the value of vaccinations as a part of modern medicine. My life experiences have taught me to look to Eastern medicine more for building true health. There are truths expressed there that you would be surprised to learn.

I don’t think the issue of vaccination effects my argument about libertarianism one way or another. It has always been a meaningless side issue that has gone on for far too long.

Sam is a voice of reason on economic policy. You are… not.

What Sam presents is a rational assessment of current and past economic problems and feasible ideas for fixing them without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Whether he is absolutely correct or not I cannot say, but I don’t entirely disagree with him.

What you have presented are typical Libertarian rants that have more to do with some insane ideology than actually trying to fix problems, or even properly understand what those problems are. Attmpting to ride Sam’s coat-tails will fool nobody.

IMO.

Wow. That’s rich.

The Constitution ought to be adhered to, but lawyers who find a “legal” way to “get a murderer off the hook” are by implication scum?

Legal ways, like, say, “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

jrodefeld

You seem to have missed this in the whole broohaha over vaccines and people being cured by water. So any chance of an answer?

And while you’re at it, some idea of where your “expertise” in economics comes from…

You said to tomndebb “You act as if there is some big conspiracy to knowingly screw people through pushing a fraululent scam on people.” I was hoping you would recognize that you’ve adopted the same outlook on several issues.

As I stated, a number of other philosophical constructs revolve around personal liberty (natural law, objectivism, economic liberalism, modern liberalism). Simply because someone believes in personal liberty, that doesn’t make them a libertarian. We could actually try and look at their actions as a whole, or we could do what you are doing, which is to pretend that the founders never actually did anything except write a few selectively picked quotes.

Right. That’s why they then went on to redistribute wealth and spend money subsidizing private industry. You should probably pick up a history book once in awhile.

Of course you’re not going to beat it to death because you have no idea what you’re talking about. Apparently, according to you, people who practice slavery, wealth redistribution, private subsidies and economic restriction are libertarians.

I love you too.

Yes. Out of the dozens and dozens of links that you’ve posted, dozens and dozens have gone to racist people and organizations. Not a very good record, wouldn’t you agree. As for the fact that you never “actually said” anything racist, but only linked to racist things, so what? If you don’t want to be classified as a racist, you should stop linking to racist things. This isn’t rocket science.

A concern about sovereignty does not constitute bigotry against Mexicans. Believing in the NAFTA Superhighway, the Amero, and the North American Union has nothing to do with sovereignty. All three of those are conspiracy theories unrelated to anything that has ever existed in reality. Racists such as Ron Paul and Lou Dobbs spread those conspiracy theories with the intention of whipping up hatred and violence against Mexicans. There’s no deny this since your own links show it to be true. Again, from the link that you chose to post to a Lou Dobbs video: “Mexicans are at war against America” and are “trying to destroy America”. Saying that all members of a certain ethnic group are at war with America and trying to destroy America is bigotry and also an attempt to incite violence. So anybody who promotes belief in the NAFTA Superhighway, the Amero, and the North American Union is promoting violence against Mexicans. If this is not clear to you, then I’ll be happy to explain at even greater length.

When you link to a source, your are endorsing that source as credible. If you link to a source that says that blacks are inferior or that the Nazis were good people, you are endorsing those beliefs as credible. Again, this is not rocket science.

And like I asked before, am I supposed to believe that it’s just a coincidence that (a) you have made such a huge number of “honest mistakes” and (b) every “honest mistake” you make just happens to involve a link to someone denying the Holocaust and spreading antisemitism? The odds of such a thing happening are too small to be worth considering, so by extension it seems a lot more likely that you chose to link to those videos and are now trying to deny it with any excuse, no matter how flimsy.

John Denson is pro-Hitler and I will prove it by quoting what he actually said about Hitler.

That’s from the link that you posted in post #475. So there you have it. In a statement made by Denson, endorsed by you, Hitler never wanted any of that war and conquest stuff. He was a nice guy who only opposed a “harsh and unfair” treaty. As for why Hitler sent troops into more than a dozen countries and rounding up and slaughtering tens of millions of people, neither Denson nor you nor any other Hitler-supporter is willing to say. In any case, now that I’ve quoted that pro-Hitler statement that Denson made and you linked to, your claim that “Denson is not pro-Hitler” looks pretty pathetic.

Well, I’ve seen quite a lot that’s racist and bigoted there. For starters, there are the three articles I’ve already mentioned: “The Jewish Role in Slavery”, “Crazed Israelies Threaten Total War”, and “Massive Israeli Manipulation of American Media”. Those are all extremely bigoted and anti-Semitic. Then there’s this article, which claims that the Holocaust was a hoax and that the Jews at Auschwitz should be thankful for how well-treated there were. And we’ve got this article, which says that the Jews were responsible for World War II. So in short, your claim that there is “nothing racist and bigoted” on rense.com is easily proven to be false. A cursory glance shows that the entire site is devoted mainly to anti-Semitism, with perhaps a few sidebars about selling marijuana and alien invasions. There is no way that any person could enjoy the site, much less promote it, unless they were extremely anti-Semitic themselves.

Now that we’ve got that covered, let me ask two more questions that you can ignore because you’re unwilling to answer them.

First question. Do you believe that Adolf Hitler and the Nazis were good people?

Second question. If you answered ‘no’ to the first question, then why do you keep promoting people and webpages that are pro-Hitler and pro-Nazi? Lest you’re tempted to pretend that you don’t promote such people and pages, keep in mind that I’ve just given numerous examples in which you did so and I could give many more.

That so? Well, perhaps the next time you’re motivated to link to a webpage that promotes hatred and violence towards black people, you should think about how your “many black friends” would feel about it. And then, perhaps, you should NOT LINK TO THAT PAGE. Doesn’t that sound like a good idea?

You’re responsible for the links that you post here. If you don’t want to be linked to a link (har har) then don’t post that link.

I’ve already answered this and see no need to repeat it.

Oh, but I can. As mentioned in the review which I already linked to, his book *The Politically Correct Guide to American History" says: “The colonists came from one part of Europe. They spoke a common language. They worshiped the same God.”

Now certainly the blacks who were brought to America as slaves were not from Europe, nor did they speak a common language or share a religion with the Europena settlers. So Woods’ statement is akin to saying that those black slaves did not exist. (Or perhaps he regards them as sub-human.) As for “leading”, he’s the only one I know who’s gotten this sort of racist drivel onto the bestseller list lately.

A great deal of what you’ve linked to is racist. As just mentioned there are the examples of Tom Woods, WND, and the New American. Then there’s the other examples which I mentioned in post 593 and which, like I predicted, you refused to respond to. Those would be rense.com, which has a banner saying “David Duke for President”. Also another person who you ordered us to obey was Lew Rockwell, who has a substantial history of attacking black people. In fact, Rockwell wrote the racist newsletters that Ron Paul put his name on in the 90’s. So now that I’ve demonstrated clearly, with links and quotes, that you’ve spent a lot of time spreading hatred of black people on this board, what are you going to do?

Well I’ve already told you once, but since you apparently missed it I’ll tell you again. In this article they not only endorse Arizona’s racist immigration law but say that it’s “humiliating” for Barack Obama to tell the truth about it.

Yes. You link to a source, you’re saying that you view it as a credible source.

Denial springs eternal.

Then your position is quite different from the one expressed by breakthematrix.com.

Well at least this time you’re admitting that you did post the video. When you post a video, you’re endorsing as accurate what’s said in that video.

Actually it’s demonstrably true, as I’ve just demonstrated.

Again, you’ve linked to the following websites run by white supremacists: LewRockwell.com, rense.com, and many others that I’m too lazy to dig up right now. But I do remember that in post 193 of this thread you linked to this, which begins by saying:

And continues in that vein for quite a while. So now that I’ve shown a specific example of you linking to a page that demands violence against Mexicans, how are you going to respond.

Nope, you owe me $10. The wager was about whether you’d answer the question concerning why you post so many racist links. You haven’t explained why you post so many racist links, but have instead denied doing so.

Well, how about it folks? Does anybody agree with jrodefeld’s assessment of the thread?

Hey, jrodefeld, guess what?

You’ve been suckered by a fake quote again. The whole “die on my feet” vs. “live on me knees” is what the Klingons say on Star Trek. (Also it appears that a Spanish communist may have said something similar to this.) Honestly, will you never learn? Will it never occur to you that things can be put on the internet which are not true? How many times do you plan on humiliating yourself like this?

Another fake. Ha ha.

Another fake. Ha ha ha.

Yet another fake. Ha ha ha ha.

Making counterfeiting punishable by death doesn’t sound like a terribly libertarian thing to do, does it now?

You’re up to being suckered by six fake quotes so far, and still lacking reliable sources for most of the others. Have you endured enough humiliation or are you going to embarrass yourself by posting yet more bogus founder quotes?

Yes, exactly. I don’t trust the government to be involved in medicine. Now if MY doctor recommends a vaccination, I will be willing to take it because I trust him. But if he is forced or threatened into pushing certain treatments and drugs, I have a problem with that.

I am not opposed to vaccinations, only government mandates. The corrupt FDA and Big Pharma are what lead sensible people to not trust the medical establishment.

If government wasn’t involved in medicine, I wouldn’t be so worried and skeptical.

Why do you keep using this highly inaccurate description?

For someone so vehement about wanting to stop talking about vaccination, it’s odd you keep bringing it back up ad nauseum. And you seem to have missed Sam’s followup post in which he says it’s legitimate for government to be involved in vaccination.

That said, Sam is at best being extremely naive in thinking that libertarianism is compatible with public vaccination programs. Actually, the sort of “public” vaccination programs Sam envisions are private, not public, and would be voluntary and doomed to ineffectiveness. The public health lessons learned over a long and painful history is that without mandatory vaccination, too few people take advantage of it and there is insufficient herd immunity to protect the population. No vaccine is 100% effective, but if enough people are immunized herd immunity keeps sporadic cases from becoming an outbreak. There is no reason to think that a disorganized, spotty system of private vaccination will result in sufficient herd immunity.

As to libertarians, they are strongly identified with efforts against mandatory vaccination, as specified in state and national party platforms. For example, here’s a California Libertarian Party platform spelling it out. Note also that the party wants to do away with all licensure and certification requirements for those practicing medicine, as well as throwing out or preventing the enactment of any laws that would in any way curtail “unorthodox” medicine.

What a golden era that would spell for quacks of all types.

Sorry for not dealing with this earlier (I don’t want to seem too jrodefeldian in conducting delayed-action responses). This is a steaming pile of strawmen (to mix metaphors a bit).

I am not clamoring for all vaccines to be given to all people. I recognize there are (very small) risks associated with vaccines, something that should not be surprising since there are risks and benefits to any medical intervention. The vaccine-associated risks are minimal in comparison to the great benefits. One vaccine I do not believe should be compulsory is the HPV vaccine. It makes sense for a lot of young women (and perhaps men) and I’d want my daughter to get it if I had one. But it’s expensive and the protection at this point is less than complete, so I and quite a few other vaccine advocates think it should be a voluntary decision. That view is defensible from a scientific and economic standpoint.

What is not defensible are opinions that vaccines should be avoided because of “toxins” or other alleged dangers, that they never worked in the first place, or that infectious diseases are not to be feared. As I noted before these are views espoused by a tiny minority of “doctors” (including those who are chiropractors, naturopaths, homeopaths etc., physicians speaking outside their areas of expertise and PhDs who are even less capable of intelligent fact-based opinions on the subject).

I’m speaking as a physician who works with infectious disease issues on a daily basis and has a postgraduate degree in microbiology. I’m far from an expert on immunization, but I’m conversant with the science as well as the grievous mistakes and misrepresentations churned out by antivaxers. I don’t dismiss any good science that’s produced on the subject of vaccines. What’s highly worthy of dismissal is the same tired nonsense from the antivax camp that I’ve heard over and over and over again.

If you really want to learn about immunization, there are ample resources available to you (the vaccine information center of the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia is a good place to start). If all you want to do is feed existing prejudices and build on a stockpile of misinformation, there are plenty of sources for that as well.

I offered a bet on whether you’d answer this question: “Why do you want to take away the houses currently owned by me and millions of others like me and give them to the rich?”. As I predicted, you did not answer the question. But I’ll give you a second shot.

Why do you want to take away the houses currently owned by me and millions of others like me and give them to the rich?
I’ll wager twenty dollars this time. I’m betting that you’ll fail to answer the question yet again.

Oddly enough, that’s exactly the definition of inflation that I’ve been using throughout this thread. You’ve been saying that inflation has nothing to do with rising prices and is, instead, an increase in the money supply. I might ask why you’ve suddenly, after 733 (!) posts, agreed that inflation actually means what the dictionary says it means, but I guess I should be glad that you’re for once willing to acknowledge that yourself and your beloved Austrian economists were wrong about the definition of inflation. So yes, when there’s inflation, prices go up.

Well, I’ve already explained it multiple times, So have other posters. But since tenfold repetition seems to be the only way to actually communicate with you, I’ll give it another go.

Consider myself. I own a house. I have a mortgage of about $130,000 and make monthly payments of about $956. If there is inflation, my salary will go up, yet my mortgage bill will remain the same. Hence I’ll be giving a smaller percentage of my income to the bank and keeping a large percentage for myself.

In general, poor people such as me are the ones who owe a lot of debt. Inflation is good for us, because it reduces the actual value of the debt we owe, which is a fixed amount in dollars. That is why inflation is good for the poor, and–to a lesser extent–the middle class.

Now that I’ve repeated my explanation, you cannot possibly claim that you haven’t seen the explanation. Or do you want me to repeat it a third time?

Poor people don’t generally live on fixed incomes. Our salaries rise and fall with the times. When there’s a healthy rate of inflation, our salaries go up.

Government does not fight hard to hide the true inflation numbers. In post 316, you linked to this, which you claimed was proof that CPI was no inaccurate. Unfortunately for you, that article is actually a defense of the CPI. The author was arguing against the use of the “core inflation” statistics. (A stance which, incidentally, I agree with.) So as has happened quite often, you linked to something which says the exact opposite of what you claim it says. Perhaps you should try reading links before you post them here.

No, I sure don’t, and I don’t see any relationship between what you wrote here and why I should lose my house. You said “deflation is good” (post 618). I pointed out that if there’s significant deflation, I’m going to lose my house along with millions of others. The question is why you want to see an economic circumstance in which this will happen? Please answer the question.

These homes and “toxic” assets need to be allowed to find their true value in the marketplace. The government cannot keep the prices artificially high forever. There is no way to determine the value of things without a market mechanism of pricing.

Right after posting that, you gave me a quote from Tim Swanson entitled “Who benefits from inflation?” So which am I supposed to believe, Mises saying that we can’t know who benefits from inflation or Swanson saying that he does know? Didn’t it ever occur to you that posting two such contradictory statements side-by-side would make you look rather foolish?

In any case, neither Mises nor Swanson acknowledges the fact that it’s the poor and middle classes that owe debt and the rich who have made the loans. In Mises’ case that’s because his writings are so out-of-date. (Swanson, I assume is either ignorant or hoping that his readers are ignorant.) Obviously if you refuse to admit to the basic fact that it’s the poor and middle class who owe debt, you’re going to get inaccurate understanding of how inflation affects them. With that said, here are two more questions for you to refuse to answer:

  1. Are you willing to acknowledge that in the USA now, it’s generally the poor and middle class who owe the most debt (relative to income)?

  2. Given your answer to 1, are you willing to acknowledge that a healthy level of inflation (about 3-5%) would be better for the poor and middle class than our current status of teetering on the edge of deflation?

OK jrode, I’m bored with the whole vaccine/alt medicine nonsense. When even **Sam Stone **cleans your clock on it, best you fold that particular tent. Repeating the same anecdotes just isn’t gonna carry the day for you. It’s nonsense. Own it.

And I tire of the whole issue of you embracing proven racists and giving credence to web sites that feature racist glurge. I’m getting a chill from the breeze caused by your constant hand waving. Maybe you’re not really a racist yourself, but you sure share a lot of philosophy with those who unabashedly are. But we all know that now, and further illustration doesn’t benefit.

Instead let us return to your assertion that all of recorded history has been deliberately distorted to serve the evil proponents of One World Government and their tool, the Federal Reserve, and we are all blind to this truth, needing you to point out the righteous path for us. I called you on this before, and all you’ve produced is the assertion that everyone was better off in the Industrial Revolution and there really wasn’t any exploitation of workers. After all, workers can just go wherever they want and take new employment, and get a better salary and better working conditions, so it doesn’t make any logical sense for employers to treat them badly or pay them a pittance. It isn’t the employer that takes away a job, but the damn government, through actions like Minimum Wage.

Tell you what, how about you explain this to all the people who are out of work right now, huh? And to all the people who still have a job but who are working harder and longer than ever before, to replace the efforts of now-discharged colleagues, but still receiving the same pay or even lesser pay. Tell them all about the power a free and liberated worker has over his employer right now. And pray, tell him also how much more power he’ll gain when the Libertarians get their wet dream and all government regulation of workplace conditions is removed. All he has to do is go where his labor is wanted and valued, right? Perhaps you might just give us a hint of where that may be, huh? I think a lot of people would like to know.

**Baboonanza **had it right, this is a veritable Katrina (or an Andrew to those of us in south Florida) of bat shittery.

Gee, that’s rich.

Who was it who first proposed looking at the price ratio of gold and oil over time? It was you, in post 316. Now you’ve suddenly reversed yourself and said that we shouldn’t look at the price ratio of gold and oil. Why the sudden change of heart?

Further, the graph that you linked to only covered a five-year period. I then linked to a graph that covered a thirty-year period. Now you’re accusing me of focusing on “a very short term”? As I’ve said before, you’re making this too easy for me. If 30 years is too short-term for you, why did you link (twice!) to a graph that only covers five years? Answer up, man! I don’t want to wait all day.

Your beloved Austrian economists and Ron Paul supporters told you that the value of gold stays constant over time. You chose to believe them rather than checking the facts with a reliable source. You copied and pasted their claims here. I then got out some real facts from reliable sources and proved that your claim was wrong. And now, in the face of this humiliation, you’re trying to desperately backpedal and obfuscate the issue.

Between 1983 and 1995 gold went from over 800 to under 300. Between 1999 and 2001 it lost 75% of its value versus oil in just two years. So you say you don’t like comparing gold to oil, even though you suggested doing exactly that a few days ago? Very well, let’s compare gold to chocolate bars. In 1980, an ounce of gold at $800 would purchase 3,200 chocolate bars at 25 cents a piece. Six years later, gold at $320 an ounce would buy only 800 chocolate bars–a 75% decline. (Here’s the price data on chocolate bars.) Name any other item you want, be it a gallon of milk, a dozen eggs, a pair of blue jeans, whatever. You’ll get a similar result when comparing prices of gold to anything.

As for your statement that “gold has always had tremendous value over thousands of years”, it’s obviously wrong. Since gold hasn’t held consistent value over a few years, it also hasn’t held consistent value of thousands of years. Further, even if it did, so what? Imagine that we lived in a parallel universe where Ron Paul got elected, re-established the gold standard, and as a result everyone in America lost 80% of their net worth in a few months. Knowing that gold was valuable in the days of the Ancient Egyptians would be cold comfort for those who’d starve to death as a result, wouldn’t you agree?

Concrete, yes. Arbitrary, no. You seem to be completely unaware of the circumstances that Americans lived in until recently, and it’s those circumstances which lead to expansion of government. During the great depression, millions of Americans were suffering from starvation. To prevent their death, President Roosevelt had the government buy up huge amounts of excess food and gave it away, thus preventing mass starvation. (It also stabilized food prices.) Going through the trouble of amending the Constitution in order to make this action legitimate would have taken months if not years, and thus it would have cost a huge number of lives. It was to save lives that the Constitution was ignored. Maybe you think that people should have been killed off because of something written by a bunch of breech-wearing slave owners, but few people agree with you.

Over and over again, I’ve asked you to provide a cite for this claim and you’ve refused to do so. You can’t make something false become true just by repeating it over and over. You need to provide a cite. Let me ask you two questions.

  1. What is the average rate of economic growth in the past 25 years?

  2. What was the average rate of economic growth in any 25-year period in the pate 19th century, or any other of the time periods that you’re so fond of?

“A free economy, respect for property, sound money and limited government” is a recipe for slow economic growth. The Federal Reserve, decent levels of government spending, and pretty high regulation are recipes for fast growth. The numbers don’t lie.

By the way, which exact books by libertarian thinkers who witnessed the industrial revolution have you read?

Which problems are you referring to?

In any case, when I look around, I see people enjoying the highest level of prosperity in human history, and I think we ought to maintain that.

What was the poverty rate fifty years ago? What is the poverty rate today? It looks like the federal government’s campaign against poverty has gone extremely well.

By what measure? It sure looks to me like it’s worked.

I don’t believe that your characterization of liberals is accurate at all. You’ve said you read dailykos.com, a liberal website, and if you were telling the truth then you’ve read a great many examples which disprove that characterization, so you don’t have any excuse for making it.

By the way, I’m still looking for an answer to this question, which you ignored;

Wow, this thread has rolled on over the weekend.

I’m going to cut out all the crap and all the snark in my reply here, because as fun as it is to mock you, I also am curious about whether there’s anything coherent under all your talk. So, all snark aside, here is an opportunity for you to explain yourself, if you can. Fight my ignorance, if you want to put it that way. (We’ll get back to the snark later.) So: let’s talk about this multiple currency world of yours. Suppose I am a person running a grocery store:

  1. Do I have to accept your homemade money? Be it gold goins or whatever it is?

  2. Do you get to tell me how much your homemade money is worth, or do I? Note that this is called “being allowed to set the price of my merchandise”. May I say that this candy bar costs $1 or two pounds of jrodefeld gold coinage or its paper equivalent?

Now suppose that you are a person running a grocery store, and I approach with paper money I printed on my laserjet that I claim is backed by gold.

  1. Does the answer to 1 change? Do you have to accept my lasermoney?

  2. Does the answer to 2 change? Do you get to decide how much lasermoney you will require for the candy bar?

  3. How to you intend to pay your taxes? In lasermoney? Or were you planning on just not paying? Let’s not assume that you can find me to exchange your lasermoney into gold; I am on vacation.

  4. Supposing you decide to try to pay your taxes in lasermoney: Does the answer to 1 change? Does the government have to accept your lasermoney? Or can the government tell you to find somebody else willing to convert it to US dollars first?

  5. Supposing you decide to try to pay your taxes in lasermoney: Does the answer to 2 change? Does the government get to decide how much your lasermoney is worth? That is, supposing you sold a million US-dollars worth of rye bread, collecting some mish-mash of currencies back in the process. Does the government get to tell you what each of those currencies is worth in US-dollars when you attempt to use them to pay the taxes? (Presuming you don’t bother to convert them yourself.)
    Please answer these seriously; I’m genuinely curious about the cash model you are attempting to propose. Because so far, I’m not seeing one.

I think part of the problem is that you seem to see everything in binary; black or white, good or bad, all freedom or no freedom.

That’s not what happens though. It’s not that the government is wise and benevolent. I don’t expect that out of politicians any more than I expect it out of CEOs or my neighbor. What I expect is people to self-centered and a bit greedy because that’s how people have pretty much always been.

Politicians want to stay politicians. So it’s in their best interest to keep me from being completely screwed over because otherwise I’ll vote them out of office. Nobody is being benevolent here, me or the politicians. I keep them in office because it serves as a buffer from exploitive practices and they serve as that buffer to stay in office. Both of us are “using” the other.

Yes, it will never go away as long as people are the way they are. Unless you’ve got some way to fundamentally shift human nature all that can be done is try to limit the problems as much as possible. The point is that exploitation occurs far less now than say a hundred years ago.

No, there really aren’t. This is where I think Libertarianism is blind. Businesses don’t exist to provide jobs. They don’t exist to provide goods or services. *They exist to make a profit for the owners. *(Old joke: Corporation - a collective effort for individual profit) They provide goods and services because that’s the only way to get the profit they want. They employ people because those good and services have to come from somewhere. But they aren’t in it for anyone but the owner(s).

Let’s say that Company A in field X decides to go with mandatory 70 hour work weeks. No problem you say, employees of A will leave for competitors B, C, and D. But what happens when B, C, and D can’t afford to hire those people? Suppose B, C, and D realize that paying all that overtime is costing them, and the profits would be much better with mandatory 70 hour weeks. Now everyone in field X works 70 hours with no recourse. Who do Libertarians complain to? It’s only the market at work.

Glad to hear you say so. Also not Libertarian at all. The correct Libertarian answer is that if people don’t like the workplace conditions they can all quit and starve. Because much like that mandatory 70 hours, there’s no incentive for companies to provide any more safety standards then necessary to keep from killing employees faster then they can be replaced.

Congratulations. You’ve just created a perpetual serf caste for your corporate empire. By paying them less than they can live on you’re insuring that they’ll be too poor and tired to ever obtain any chance to better their lives or their childrens’ lives. Kids from this serf class are going to have to go to work ASAP to help support their family which means no time for education. Of course without an education there’s no chance for them to get better jobs which means their own kids are going to be in the same position.

See, this is the exact magic handwaving I mentioned. How will it be contained in the free market? For example, what in a Libertarian style free market will prevent 7 year olds from working 12 hour days in a shoe factory for 50 cents a week?