# This Pit's for you, Bud **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371 "2005-11-23T02:37:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/21 "2005-11-23T06:16:52Z")
The only nit which I’ll pick with this argument is that Shoeless Jackson committed his misdeeds as a player, and Pete was _clean_ as a player. I’ve never seen or read any evidence that he betted _against_ the Reds while he was a manager. ---
**Author:** ![Waterman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b2d939/32.png) [@Waterman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waterman)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/22 "2005-11-23T06:28:03Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > … They apparently let Ty Cobb go for betting on games. Jim Cobb was a racist SOB but I never heard anything about his betting on games. Shoeless Joe was banned by Commissioner Landis, whose job it was to clean up the game. Who was the commissioner when Cobb committed his trangression and did he do it while a player or manager? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/23 "2005-11-23T06:34:19Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Baseball has a Golden Rule. It is in every clubhouse. “ **Do not bet on Baseball** ”. > > Pete is at least guilty on betting on the team he managed. > > {snipped by **Monty** } > > He is a deeply troubled and weak will man who has done this to himself. > Please, give up on him. Put him in the hall 5 years after he dies. That way he can do no further harm to his once stellar reputation. Jim, I agree with you on Baseball’s Golden Rule, on Rose being at least guilty on betting on the team he managed, on his weekness and that he’s done this to himself. What I do not agree with is putting him in the HOF at all, ever. A lifetime ban is the appropriate response to what he did to baseball. As to his once stellar reputation…well, let’s just say it’s obviously unearned now that his true character’s been shown. No sympathy at all for what he did. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/24 "2005-11-23T07:10:42Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > he broke the sport’s cardinal rule and cast doubt on the integrity of the game. I would agree with you except that baseball has no integrity left. Bud Selig, owner of the Brewers, proposes contracting the Twins, a team with a rabid fan base that just so happens to be the closest competition to Selig’s Brewers? Please. These ears are deaf to baseball’s cries of “integrity”. Rose should go in. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/25 "2005-11-23T07:15:38Z")
Fuck Rose. He knew the rules and he still played with fire. Actions have consequences, deal. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/26 "2005-11-23T08:41:18Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’d let Rose in the Hall of Fame, with the following condition: he is forever banned from holding any position with any professional baseball team, from good-will ambassador to scout to manager. He can have his plaque in the Hall and play in old-timers’ games. His achievements as one of the greatest players ever would be honored. He wouldn’t be given an opportunity to corrupt baseball. I’d let Rose into the Hall of Fame on the following conditions: he buys a damn ticket like everyone else, and he has to leave when the building closes. > [@Weirddave](#): > > I would agree with you except that baseball has no integrity left. Bud Selig, owner of the Brewers, proposes contracting the Twins, a team with a rabid fan base that just so happens to be the closest competition to Selig’s Brewers? Please. These ears are deaf to baseball’s cries of “integrity”. Rose should go in. Yeah, baseball’s a fucked up sport with ninety-nine problems right now. That doesn’t mean they need a hundred. ---
**Author:** ![Gamaliel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b487fb/32.png) [@Gamaliel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gamaliel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/27 "2005-11-23T09:03:49Z")
Pete Rose should be allowed into the Hall of Fame. Posthumously. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/28 "2005-11-23T12:20:44Z")
I felt more sorry for him before I visited the Hall the first time. There’s a lot more than just the gallery and the plaques of the inductees. His on-field activites are pretty well presented in the museum with everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/29 "2005-11-23T12:35:52Z")
Please explain to me how betting on your team to win (as a manager) destroys the integrity of the game any more than taking performance enhancing drugs? How many game outcomes were changed because players were juiced? Or how many outcomes were affected because someone showed up drunk or stoned? Get off your fucking high horses. Pete Rose belongs in, for that matter so does Shoeless Joe. I think the majority of you against him probably hated him as a player because he most likely stuck it your teams (he did that to practically all of them). If common sense (== even-handedness) isn’t going to be applied, then fuck the rules. Prove to me he bet against his own team and I might change my mind. Suspicion doesn’t cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/30 "2005-11-23T12:38:55Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Please explain to me how betting on your team to win (as a manager) destroys the integrity of the game any more than taking performance enhancing drugs? > > How many game outcomes were changed because players were juiced? > > Or how many outcomes were affected because someone showed up drunk or stoned? > > Get off your fucking high horses. > > Pete Rose belongs in, for that matter so does Shoeless Joe. > > I think the majority of you against him probably hated him as a player because he most likely stuck it your teams (he did that to practically all of them). > > If common sense (== even-handedness) isn’t going to be applied, then fuck the rules. > > Prove to me he bet against his own team and I might change my mind. Suspicion doesn’t cut it. He agreed to the lifetime ban. It was his decision. Now he’s getting what he asked for and he doesn’t like it. That’s a damn shame. And FYI, Pete Rose never stuck it to my team. Doesn’t even play hockey. ---
**Author:** ![Madd\_Maxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Madd\_Maxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madd_Maxx)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/31 "2005-11-23T12:58:54Z")
I think Joe Jackson and Pete Rose are Hall of Famers and deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. I don’t think they should have a ceremony for Pete, and I don’t think he should be able profit directly from his inclusion into the Hall, but for what the man accomplished as a player he deserves to be there. Michael Jordan is a known gambler ([cite](http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2197904)) but is there any doubt that he deserves to be in the Basketball Hall of Fame? Alex Rodrigues currently gambles ([cite](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9896335/)) and doesn’t get so much as a slap on the wrist. Charlie Hustle needs to be in the Hall of Fame. To do any less would be hypocritical, and would constitute unfair treatment (and smack of a personal vendetta by Bud Selig) by MLB. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/32 "2005-11-23T13:31:35Z")
Pete rose should get into the Hall… the day after Shoeless Joe gets in. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/33 "2005-11-23T13:36:24Z")
> [@Waterman](#): > > Cobb was a racist SOB but I never heard anything about his betting on games. Shoeless Joe was banned by Commissioner Landis, whose job it was to clean up the game. Who was the commissioner when Cobb committed his trangression and did he do it while a player or manager? 1926 he was brought in and accused of betting on games and they negotiated in a secret hearing with the very same Judge Landis. Try this google [ty cobb betting on game](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ty+cobb+betting+on+game) Read through these links [http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/C/Cobb\_Ty.stm](http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/C/Cobb_Ty.stm) > [@](#): > > » November 29, 1926: Tris Speaker resigns as Indians manager. Stories of a thrown game and betting on games by Ty Cobb and Speaker gain momentum when Judge Landis holds a secret hearing with the two stars and former pitcher-OF Joe Wood. The story and testimony will not be released until December 21st. Former Tiger P Dutch Leonard wrote to Harry Heilmann that he had turned over letters written to him by Joe Wood and Ty Cobb to American League president Ban Johnson, implicating Wood and Cobb in betting on a Tiger-Cleveland game played in Detroit, September 25, 1919. He charged that Cobb and Speaker conspired to let Detroit win to help them gain 3rd-place money. At a secret meeting of AL directors, it was decided to let Cobb and Speaker resign with no publicity. But, as rumors spread, Judge Landis takes charge of the matter and holds the hearings, at which Leonard refuses to appear. Cobb and Wood admit to the letters, but say it was a horse racing bet, and contend Leonard is angry for having been released to the Pacific Coast League by Cobb. Speaker, not named in the letters, denies everything. Public sympathy is with the stars, but the matter will remain unresolved until January of next year. [http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry\_id=5910](http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=5910) > [@](#): > > It is critical to put Pete Rose’s gambling into perspective. Harold Seymour’s three part series on the history of baseball which culminates in “The Golden Age,”, and from which Bill James liberally borrows (with annotation) for many of his sidebars in the Historical Baseball Abstract and his Guide to Baseball Managers, makes it perfectly clear that a large number of famous, Hall of Fame baseball players gambled routinely and gambled on their own teams. Those players included Hal Chase, \*\*Ty Cobb \*\* and Tris Speaker, and may have included countless others who were bitter after salaries were reduced (1) after the American and National Leagues achieved peace in the early 1900s and (2) after the Federal League was disbanded and peace was achieved. As Eliot Asinof points out in Eight Men Out, even the eight men of the White Sox had ample reason for taking bets, because they were miserably underpaid by Charlie Comiskey, who according to Seymour, cleared in excess of $500,000 in profits from the Chisox during the 1910s during an era of no income tax or 1-3% income tax. He never shared that revenue and only spent about $25-40,000 of that on his players. It is common but not official knowledge that Cobb bet on baseball as a player. The “Judge” did want baseball to be dragged back into the muck again and let both Cobb & Speaker off. But I am a crazy baseball nut. I also read through the Joe Jackson confession. He is guilty of sin. But doesn’t **lifetime mean while alive**? Note: IIRC Cobb only played under Judge Landis, there were no commissioners before Landis. Last Note: IIRC Landis is the Judge who gave baseball the special ruling protecting them from Anti-Trust. He was not known as a great Judge but you will need a legal person to go into details on that and wasn’t it a nice payback that baseball gave him the job as the first commissioner. Jim ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/34 "2005-11-23T13:40:57Z")
> [@Madd Maxx](#): > > I think Joe Jackson and Pete Rose are Hall of Famers and deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. I don’t think they should have a ceremony for Pete, and I don’t think he should be able profit directly from his inclusion into the Hall, but for what the man accomplished as a player he deserves to be there. Michael Jordan is a known gambler ([cite](http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2197904)) but is there any doubt that he deserves to be in the Basketball Hall of Fame? Alex Rodrigues currently gambles ([cite](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9896335/)) and doesn’t get so much as a slap on the wrist. Charlie Hustle needs to be in the Hall of Fame. To do any less would be hypocritical, and would constitute unfair treatment (and smack of a personal vendetta by Bud Selig) by MLB. **Madd Maxx** you don’t really know what you are talking about. A-Rod did not bet on baseball. He was playing poker. This is not the Golden Rule. Many Baseball player bet the Ponies with gusto. Very Common. The rule is to not bet on baseball. As far as Jordan the Basketball Hall of Fame is a completely separate entity with completely different rules for a different league. Bud did not impose the ban, Bud tried to get Pete to do the contrition act, but Pete has continued to screw up. The Ban was imposed 2 commissioners back. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/35 "2005-11-23T13:52:29Z")
That’s one of the sillier things I’ve heard argued. MLB players may go to Atlantic City and gamble. They just can’t do it on baseball. And especially not on their teams, either to win or lose. The quote from Giamatti: > [@](#): > > The banishment for life of Pete Rose from baseball is the sad end of a sorry episode. One of the game’s greatest players has engaged in a variety of acts which have stained the game, and he must now live with the consequences of those acts. By choosing not to come to a hearing before me, and by choosing not to proffer any testimony or evidence contrary to the evidence and information contained in the report of the Special Counsel to the Commissioner, Mr. Rose has accepted baseball’s ultimate sanction, lifetime ineligibility. Pete did it to himself. It’s always been clear to me that if he’d dealt with it up front he’d have been out for a few years and welcomed back on probation. Instead he chose to screw around and paid the price. [Here’s the Dowd Report in all its glory.](http://www.dowdreport.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/36 "2005-11-23T13:59:49Z")
I’ve never heard of anything that would warrant mentioning Ty Cobb and Hal Chase in the same breath. Chase was alleged to be an active game-fixer. He supposedly (this is mentioned in _Eight Men Out_ I believe) went up to his pitcher on the mound _during a game_ and told him there’d be something in it for him if he eased up on the hitters. ---
**Author:** ![Madd\_Maxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Madd\_Maxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madd_Maxx)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/37 "2005-11-23T14:00:18Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > **Madd Maxx** you don’t really know what you are talking about. A-Rod did not bet on baseball. He was playing poker. This is not the Golden Rule. > Many Baseball player bet the Ponies with gusto. Very Common. The rule is to not bet on baseball. > As far as Jordan the Basketball Hall of Fame is a completely separate entity with completely different rules for a different league. > Bud did not impose the ban, Bud tried to get Pete to do the contrition act, but Pete has continued to screw up. The Ban was imposed 2 commissioners back. > > Jim I forgot gambling on cards in illegal casino’s is OK, while betting on sports in legal casiono’s isn’t. Gotcha. Jordan’s gambling and near guaranteed induction in his sports Hall of Fame can’t be used to draw a parrellel because you said so. Gotcha. All please ignore my previous post, as I obviously don’t know what I’m talking about. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Madd\_Maxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Madd\_Maxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madd_Maxx)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/38 "2005-11-23T14:30:10Z")
Forgive me for pointing out an inconsistancy between one of last generations great players (Rose) with one of this generations great players (A-Rod) and how MLB and Bud Selig in particular dealt with each of their situations that both involved gambling (albeit different types of gambling). To summarize, Pete apologized, still no dice on getting into the HOF; while A-rod says maybe I should be more careful about where I spend my 1/4 billion dollars and … nothing. I also apoligize to drawing a parrallel between two great players that have both acknowledged gambling in the past (Rose & Jordan) and pointed out that one of them is a shoo-in for the Hall of Fame in Basketball and the other has apparently no chance of being considered in his sort of Baseball. A lesser man might point out that other sports instituted steriod policy on their own accord while baseball’s steroid policy took an act of Congress. Yet another man might point out that it’s OK to differentiate between stages of a players career such as Pete Rose as a player, and Pete Rose as a manager similiar to how that man might differentiate between G. Bush Jr. as a former coke head/ draft dodger come baseball owner and G. Bush Jr. as Predsident. I’ll leave those to another Doper. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/39 "2005-11-23T14:36:05Z")
> [@Madd Maxx](#): > > I forgot gambling on cards in illegal casino’s is OK, while betting on sports in legal casiono’s isn’t. Gotcha. > > Jordan’s gambling and near guaranteed induction in his sports Hall of Fame can’t be used to draw a parrellel because you said so. Gotcha. > > All please ignore my previous post, as I obviously don’t know what I’m talking about. :rolleyes: Which previous post? I saw no prior post by you in this thread. Baseball and Basketball have different rules. So does Canton. A-Rod’s indiscretions are not the same a Pete’s. It is very simple: Don’t bet on baseball. Actually MLB should investigate A-Rod however. Getting involved with an illegal gambling ring does impose a danger on the integrity of the sport. It can be argued that the very fact he did so could be used to blackmail him into a situation that could compromise the game. Is this what you meant? Is so I apologize, it really sounded like you were comparing apples to oranges. Jim (baseball geek) ---
**Author:** ![Madd\_Maxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Madd\_Maxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madd_Maxx)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371/40 "2005-11-23T14:44:17Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Which previous post? I saw no prior post by you in this thread. > Baseball and Basketball have different rules. So does Canton. > A-Rod’s indiscretions are not the same a Pete’s. It is very simple: Don’t bet on baseball. > Actually MLB should investigate A-Rod however. Getting involved with an illegal gambling ring does impose a danger on the integrity of the sport. It can be argued that the very fact he did so could be used to blackmail him into a situation that could compromise the game. Is this what you meant? Is so I apologize, it really sounded like you were comparing apples to oranges. > > Jim (baseball geek) My post #31, which you quoted in your post #34. My point is _exactly that_, baseball is inconsistent in it’s attempts to prevent the game from being compromised, and has been for almost as long as the game has been played. I’m not trying to blame anyone in particular but Bud Selig does make a timely target of this critisism. It’s a damn shame because I like baseball too. The first Doper I ever met in person was **Wierddave** at an Orioles game. No hard feelings here. Madd Maxx (geek in general) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pits-for-you-bud/332371.md?page=3)