# This pro-Hillary rant is cathartic for me **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 3, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026 "2016-02-03T04:44:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/41 "2016-02-03T17:50:35Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > YES. The people who are asserting that Bernie would do just as well if he looked and talked like an anchorman are not being honest either with us or themselves. His demeanor and unkempt appearance are essential elements of his schtick. So do you think that _most_ voters choose candidates based on emotional responses to completely irrelevant factors, or is this hypothesis only needed for you to explain to yourself why Sanders in particular is doing well? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/42 "2016-02-03T17:58:24Z")
Hillary “doesn’t get to be all wild hair and yelling” for the same reason Bill didn’t – because that’s not her **brand.** ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/43 "2016-02-03T18:06:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hillary “doesn’t get to be all wild hair and yelling” for the same reason Bill didn’t – because that’s not her **brand.** Well… to be fair, I do think there’s an argument that women have a much narrower path to walk when dealing with bullshit commentary on their appearance. It’s not wholly one-sided (John Edwards, I’m looking at you and your $300 haircut), but it’s definitely unbalanced. It’s [del]possible[/del] pretty damned likely that a presidential candidate who looked like [this](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2021857/resumephotos?v=me8006386871) would face a lot more bullshit over her hair than Sanders has over his hair. So what do we do with that? If we use that realization as an opportunity to look at our own political commentary and opinions and try to make sure we’re focusing on substantive issues rather than appearnace and especially rather than sexist bullshit, that’s great. If we use that realization as an opportunity to confront others when they act in a sexist, bullshit manner, in order to make this sort of nonsense less a part of the political discourse, that’s great. But if we use that realization as an opportunity to treat male politicians with as much bullshit as we’re directing at female politicians, there’s something deeply wrong with us. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/44 "2016-02-03T18:11:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > YES. The people who are asserting that Bernie would do just as well if he looked and talked like an anchorman are not being honest either with us or themselves. His demeanor and unkempt appearance are essential elements of his schtick. Wait. WHAT!?!?! His schtick? You sound like the Republicans back in 2008 saying that Obama’s biggest asset is that he is black. What Obama did was turn a huge historical disadvantage into an advantage. What Bernie did was simply get people to overlook the fact that he looks like a guy that woke up in a gutter before showing up to work. I’m sure there are some people who like the frumpy, disheveled, unkempt look but for most of us we have to look PAST those things to take him seriously. If Bernie Sanders was a good looking, well spoken younger man, with his track record for pushing left wing ideas, I think he would be doing AT LEAST as well as he is doing now. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/45 "2016-02-03T18:26:06Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Yeah pretty sure Jewish guys are more privileged than white women on the progressive stack. Being clear doesn’t make you a person of color. I can’t tell what your point is. Mine was that calling attention specifically to the word ‘chutzpah’ when describing Sanders is a jab against his being Jewish, which is just as unadmirable as any anti-woman comment that the OP is so upset about. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/46 "2016-02-03T18:29:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Well, that was an easy mindread. No chance that people who have, for decades, been calling for the US to follow its peers into a more socialist government are legitimately interested in a politician who calls for the US to follow its peers into a more socialist government. No, we must be crazy hair fans! > > :rolleyes: > > There is some serious sexist criticism of Clinton based on her appearance–I’ll grant you that. But when I criticize Clinton for inauthenticity, I’m thinking of her claims about dodging sniper fire; I’m thinking of her suggestion that wiping computer servers involves a washcloth. I find her to be deeply insincere even for a politician. > > It won’t stop me from voting for her, because I also think she’s profoundly intelligent and a master of political schmoozing and will get stuff done, and she’s miles better than any Republican. But suggesting that critiques of Clinton are **necessarily** founded in sexism, or that support for Sanders is **necessarily** founded in sexism, is intellectually lazy, fundamentally dishonest, and super duper lame. Almost every Bernie Sanders fan I know says that they would vote for Hillary if she was the eventual nominee (some of them say they would hold their nose but they would still go to the polls). I cannot say the same for every Hillary supporter I know. The sense of entitlement is staggering. Its like they feel the election is being stolen from them (just like it was by Obama). ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/47 "2016-02-03T18:56:25Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’m not convinced that Clinton would do worse if she were more “real.” Her biggest detraction is seeming more fake than any other candidate. It’s not as if there aren’t women in politics who don’t come of less polished. > > I don’t deny that there is a type of sexism where women have to be perfect when men aren’t, but how much of that is in play here, and how much of it is the fact that Clinton and Sanders have completely different brand identities? When your tone is always measured and calculated, you will seem much angrier when you do actually raise your voice. > > I mean, that popular image of Howard Dean being too crazy seems to have derailed his campaign back in 2008–even if it was perfectly understandable in context. But why does she seem fake? Or more fake than any other candidate? It just seems to me that for decades now, conservatives have had it out for her more than almost anyone else. Even as much as Bill was hated, he gets a bit more grudging respect, since he does have more natural charm than she has. And while obviously Bernie supporters don’t have the same hate for her and her policies as conservatives do, a lot of the attacks on her being fake sound awfully similar. I think there are some things that Limbaugh and others have said about her so often, that people just somewhat take as fact now, forgetting where it came from. That is NOT to say that anyone who dislikes her is sexist, or that there aren’t valid criticisms of her. But it’s hard not to see the long running and often sexist attacks on her not affecting some of the attacks on her now. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Almost every Bernie Sanders fan I know says that they would vote for Hillary if she was the eventual nominee (some of them say they would hold their nose but they would still go to the polls). I cannot say the same for every Hillary supporter I know. > > The sense of entitlement is staggering. Its like they feel the election is being stolen from them (just like it was by Obama). Really? I haven’t heard that at all. I’ve heard some people say that they don’t think Bernie could get elected because he’s called himself a socialist and for various other reasons, but I haven’t heard any Hillary supporters say that if he was the winner of the Democratic nomination that they wouldn’t vote for him. I remember the same things being said in 2008, that there were a lot of Hillary supporters that wouldn’t vote for Obama for whatever reason, and I’m pretty sure that that was either wildly overstated or just made up. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/48 "2016-02-03T19:48:56Z")
And btw I think people are greatly exaggerating how disheveled Bernie looks. He carries himself more like a guy who works in an office than like most people who work in front of TV cameras, but I can’t believe that anyone would seriously see him on the street and think “homeless”. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/49 "2016-02-03T20:00:46Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > Really? I haven’t heard that at all. I’ve heard some people say that they don’t think Bernie could get elected because he’s called himself a socialist and for various other reasons, but I haven’t heard any Hillary supporters say that if he was the winner of the Democratic nomination that they wouldn’t vote for him. I remember the same things being said in 2008, that there were a lot of Hillary supporters that wouldn’t vote for Obama for whatever reason, and I’m pretty sure that that was either wildly overstated or just made up. its anecdotal. I’m sure there is someone somewhere that has had the exact opposite experience. > **[Obama Gains Among Former Clinton Supporters](https://news.gallup.com/poll/109957/obama-gains-among-former-clinton-supporters.aspx)** > > The Democratic convention appears to have helped solidify support for Barack Obama among former Hillary Clinton supporters, with the percent saying they will vote for Obama in November increasing from 70% pre-convention to 81% post-convention, and... They might have ultimately voted for Obama but that is not what they were telling pollsters. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/50 "2016-02-03T20:03:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > BTW, a nonwhite male politician could not get away with being shouty and having unkempt hair either. So what people are finding so charming about Bernie Sanders is emblematic of a very specifically white male privilege. Stop reading Shakesville and being such a cuck. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/51 "2016-02-03T20:31:37Z")
Personally, the fact that Hillary Clinton acts like a grown-up is one of the big things I like about her. I don’t want a President who rants and raves and fires up the crowd. I don’t want a President who I can imagine is my buddy I could drink a beer with. I don’t want a President who is a surrogate parent figure. I don’t want a President who I can transfer all my hopes and dreams on to. I want a President who is a competent and efficient politician who I feel will make intelligent choices about leading the nation. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/52 "2016-02-03T20:35:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Personally, the fact that Hillary Clinton acts like a grown-up is one of the big things I like about her. I don’t want a President who rants and raves and fires up the crowd. I don’t want a President who I can imagine is my buddy I could drink a beer with. I don’t want a President who is a surrogate parent figure. I don’t want a President who I can transfer all my hopes and dreams on to. > > I want a President who is a competent and efficient politician who I feel will make intelligent choices about leading the nation. Again, this is pretty problematic. Your implication is that folks like myself–folks who since the 1980s have been hoping the US would move toward more of a Western European/Canadian model of democracy in terms of government services and taxation levels–don’t look to Sanders and see a politician who would help nudge the country in that direction; instead, we see someone who we can “imagine is [our] buddy,” who we could “drink a beer with,” who is a “surrogate parent figure,” whom we can “transfer all [our] hopes and dreams on to.” No. It’s perfectly possible to be clear-eyed about the situation and also to think that Sanders’s political approach is salubrious for our country. I don’t say nasty sneering things about Clinton supporters. I try to defend her from nasty unwarranted personal jabs. I’ll thank you to offer me the same courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/53 "2016-02-03T20:42:57Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Stop reading Shakesville and being such a cuck. That’s it. Warning. And any form of ‘cuck’ or ‘cuckservative’ or such is now a warnable insult. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/54 "2016-02-03T20:47:04Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > And any form of ‘cuck’ or ‘cuckservative’ or such is now a warnable insult. FWIW, if there are other folks out there like myself who didn’t know what the word meant, [here’s a lovely article about its meaning and history](https://newrepublic.com/article/122372/conservatives-are-holding-conversation-about-race). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/55 "2016-02-03T20:49:55Z")
I have - due to its usage here - been enlightened as to the term. Thus, warnable. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/56 "2016-02-03T21:06:14Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > Really? I haven’t heard that at all. I’ve heard some people say that they don’t think Bernie could get elected because he’s called himself a socialist and for various other reasons, but I haven’t heard any Hillary supporters say that if he was the winner of the Democratic nomination that they wouldn’t vote for him. I support Hillary as the least bad option, and would vote for her over any of the GOP candidates, but I would never in a million years vote for shouty commie grandpa. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/57 "2016-02-03T21:13:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Almost every Bernie Sanders fan I know says that they would vote for Hillary if she was the eventual nominee (some of them say they would hold their nose but they would still go to the polls). I cannot say the same for every Hillary supporter I know. > > The sense of entitlement is staggering. Its like they feel the election is being stolen from them (just like it was by Obama). I voted for Obama in the 2008 primary. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/58 "2016-02-03T21:15:35Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I support Hillary as the least bad option, and would vote for her over any of the GOP candidates, but I would never in a million years vote for shouty commie grandpa. I trust that all the folks upset about unfair attacks against Clinton will jump to Sanders’s defense here :). ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/59 "2016-02-03T21:30:00Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > shouty commie grandpa. Band name? (And if you honestly think Sanders is a communist . . . you need to get out more.) > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If we use that realization as an opportunity to confront others when they act in a sexist, bullshit manner, in order to make this sort of nonsense less a part of the political discourse, that’s great. > > But if we use that realization as an opportunity to treat male politicians with as much bullshit as we’re directing at female politicians, there’s something deeply wrong with us. I think fighting underlying sexism in order to create a world where a Shouty Commie Grandma could exist is a great goal, but in the short term, my take is: try not to hold Hillary’s polished pantsuit shtick _against_ her, because she doesn’t really have the option of being messy. Voting for Bernie because you like his policies/voting record more is fine, obviously, but voting for him because he looks more genuine than Hillary is being blind to what women in politics are required to do. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/60 "2016-02-03T21:34:53Z")
> [@Octarine](#): > > I think fighting underlying sexism in order to create a world where a Shouty Commie Grandma could exist is a great goal, but in the short term, my take is: try not to hold Hillary’s polished pantsuit shtick _against_ her, because she doesn’t really have the option of being messy. Voting for Bernie because you like his policies/voting record more is fine, obviously, but voting for him because he looks more genuine than Hillary is being blind to what women in politics are required to do. 100% agree. People that act like her put-together outfits are a problem are being sexist assholes (I say, genuinely thinking nobody in this thread is doing that), and yes, the BernieBro phenomenon is repulsive. People that think Clinton edges up to the rules and ignores ones that are for the little people, who think she tells small lies without even paying attention–these are valid criticisms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026.md?page=4)