# This pro-Hillary rant is cathartic for me **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 3, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026 "2016-02-03T04:44:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/81 "2016-02-03T23:47:30Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > IMO, it’s much more outrageous for a Bernhead to say they won’t vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination than it is for someone to say they would vote for Hillary as nominee but not if Bernie is the standardbearer. DUCY? Both are traitors to the party and deserve to be kicked out of it. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/82 "2016-02-03T23:50:36Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Both are traitors to the party and deserve to be kicked out of it. But the group that would flip from Hillary to Rubio if Bernie is the nominee may not even be in the party. And even in these more polarized times, we can’t win general elections with Democrats only. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/83 "2016-02-03T23:51:06Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Easy. Let’s put conservatism on the right/positive side of the scale and liberalism on the left/negative side. We’ll say 100 is the furthest you can go in either direction. So let’s say Rubio is a +70, Bernie is a -80, and Hillary is a -30. It’s true that there is twice as much distance between Hillary and Rubio as there is between Hillary and Bernie. But for anyone between -5 and +20, Rubio is closer to them then Bernie is, while Hillary is closer to them than Rubio is. > > It doesn’t matter what the numbers are unless you say that Hillary and Bernie are exactly the same, and I don’t think anyone would claim that. If there is any difference between them, there is going to be some group that will swing if they want to go to the closest candidate to them. By your reasoning, this excludes for example strongly leftist voters who are -100 and are only willing to vote for candidates up to a certain “leftiness” level like say -50. Not to mention that RL politics doesn’t work that way-people are going to be voting on the basis of issues emphasized and if someone say votes for Hillary because she supports strengthening healthcare, protecting SS and Medicare, and raising the minimum wage then Sanders is going to be offering them the same essential package with different details while Rubio would be offering them something completely different. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/84 "2016-02-03T23:54:25Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But the group that would flip from Hillary to Rubio if Bernie is the nominee may not even be in the party. And even in these more polarized times, we can’t win general elections with Democrats only. I know which is why Sanders will emphasize his socioeconomic populism to get the vote of disaffected independents. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/85 "2016-02-03T23:58:08Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Because Bernie is to Hillary’s left. A moderate could legitimately prefer a Republican over him but prefer Hillary over the Republican. Whereas a Bernhead voting Republican, or even abstaining in the general election, is just being spiteful. > > Cite on Hillary’s alleged huge financial advantage over Obama? > > And no: I did not miss your snarky, loaded, leading question. And a radical leftist might well legitimately view Bernie as just barely progressive enough to be worth supporting, while seeing no significant difference between Hillary and Rubio. I agree that it would be ridiculous for such a person to vote _Republican_, but not to abstain or vote 3rd party. Don’t have time to dig up a cite now, maybe someone else can oblige. But the fact that you are even asking for a cite on this demonstrates that you don’t follow politics all that closely. I thought my question was a rather polite and straightforward response to your snarky, loaded comment about Sanders supporters. It’s a simple question, why won’t you answer it? Do you think Sanders supporters in general are making their decision based on less rational thought processes than supporters of other candidates, or of Hillary in particular? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/86 "2016-02-04T00:09:22Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Don’t have time to dig up a cite now, maybe someone else can oblige. But the fact that you are even asking for a cite on this demonstrates that you don’t follow politics all that closely. I follow politics _extremely_ closely, so this might get my dander up if it didn’t instead give me the opportunity to let you enjoy the egg on your face: > **[Obama's money puts Clinton's 'inevitable' nomination in doubt - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/02/campaign.money.schneider/index.html?iref=nextin)** > > Just when Washington insiders were beginning to think of Sen. Hillary Clinton's nomination as inevitable, here comes Sen. Barack Obama to shake up that assumption with stupendous second-quarter fundraising totals: $32.5 million raised, of which $31... Oops. (I won’t blame you if you slink away in embarrassment now, and are not to be heard from again in this thread.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/87 "2016-02-04T00:14:35Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Oops. (I won’t blame you if you slink away in embarrassment now, and are not to be heard from again in this thread.) Glad to see you Clinton supporters aren’t spiteful at all, like those crazy Bernheads. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/88 "2016-02-04T00:20:27Z")
Oh, come on. I pride myself on being a big politics junkie, and I had just been sneered at for supposedly not following politics closely enough to know something basic. You really expect me to not swing at that fat pitch? If so, you’re clearly more of a Zen monk than I am, congrats. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/89 "2016-02-04T00:21:05Z")
Well, this is quite embarrassing. I must retract some statements. I had forgotten that the Democratic primary calendar started much earlier in 2008, and that in that year, unlike this one, there were quite a few states that had voted by the end of February, with 22 states voting on “Super Tuesday”, February 5, though I wouldn’t call Obama’s 53-47% lead in delegates at the end of the month all that overwhelming. I was also mistaken about the financial gap between the Clinton and Obama campaigns, and particularly apologize for my snarky comment on that subject. Clinton did enjoy a significant advantage during the earliest stage of the campaign in 2007, but Obama had caught up with her by the time the actual voting started and surpassed her after the first few primaries. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/90 "2016-02-04T00:44:44Z")
That’s cool, and good on you for coming back to take your lumps. Kudos. I still think that last part is a bit inaccurate though. He passed her in fundraising earlier than you seem to indicate. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/91 "2016-02-04T01:09:17Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Because Bernie is to Hillary’s left. A moderate could legitimately prefer a Republican over him but prefer Hillary over the Republican. Whereas a Bernhead voting Republican, or even abstaining in the general election, is just being spiteful. This is more vapid lame failed mindreading. You start from a different position–namely, that the system currently more-or-less works in a positive way. There’s another position, that our current system is deeply corrupt and works, whichever party is in power, to concentrate power among the elite. In this view, voting for a candidate who will participate in that power-concentration is an act of legitimization of the corrupt system, and it’s better not to participate at all than it is to prop up the system with a vote. I wholeheartedly disagree with that position, mind you, and I’ve spent a fair amount of time over the last quarter century trying to persuade some fellow leftists that nobody gives a shit about whether their vote legitimizes the system, that they should be more practical than that. But, and this is the thing, **it ain’t spite**. It’s a principled disagreement over the power, symbolism, and ultimate purpose of voting. A person unable to understand the principled position of their opponents is a person unable to participate in a principled and fair discussion of politics. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/92 "2016-02-04T01:10:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m not so sure about that. Just recently, along with many other times in the past, I’ve seen comments to the effect that all Republicans see women as ideally being barefoot in the kitchen with a prairie dress on. Whereas the modern GOP, with all its faults, is actually quite into women being powerful corporate lawyer types just like men. Well, it’s like with racism – the GOP might not be entirely sexist, but it has become the party to which sexists naturally gravitate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/93 "2016-02-04T01:17:12Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I know which is why Sanders will emphasize his socioeconomic populism to get the vote of disaffected independents. Some of whom, I think, are now favoring Trump but could conceivably be talked over. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/94 "2016-02-04T01:43:09Z")
I do think the political system works now, other than some of the structural issues in the government that lead to too much gridlock. A radical position these days, more radical than anything Trump or Bernie says… But it doesn’t leave me with much patience for the other kind of radicals you want me to try to coax into the Democratic Party. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/95 "2016-02-04T02:23:37Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I do think the political system works now, other than some of the structural issues in the government that lead to too much gridlock. A radical position these days, more radical than anything Trump or Bernie says. Oh, for pity’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/96 "2016-02-04T02:26:19Z")
??? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/97 "2016-02-04T02:31:46Z")
It’s hardly radical that “there’s too much gridlock”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/98 "2016-02-04T02:39:23Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ??? Saying, in effect, “I think government works, look how radical I am!” is pretty offputting. No, that doesn’t make you a radical. And if it did, being a radical doesn’t equal being a hep cat. We’re not discussing who’s awesomer, who hated government before it was cool, who’s gonna get the most radical action. So there’s no need to brag about how you’re more radical than thou or whatever. Thinking government works is the **opposite** of radical. The radical right, the radical left, radical Islam are different in so many ways, but the one belief they have is that current social structures **don’t** work. That’s [kind of what it means to be radical](https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aradical&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8). There are plenty of principled reasons to support Hillary Clinton. There are plenty of principled reasons to support Sanders. There are plenty of principled reasons to support Rubio. There are, og help me, principled reasons to support Santorum or Trump. And there are principled reasons to refuse to vote. Nobody is saying you should coax radicals into the Democratic party (at least, nobody in this thread–I cannot account for people you’re having conversations with elsewhere). All I’m saying is that rather than continuing to engage in super-lame attempts at psychoanalysis of your opponents, you’d do well to debate them on the principles, not on what you fantasize is happening in their head. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/99 "2016-02-04T02:41:16Z")
No, what’s radical is that I don’t think we need a “political revolution”, or to get money out of politics or make other fundamental changes to our electoral system, or that America needs to get great again, etc. If you call me up and poll me, I’m one of the “right track” people. I was also one of those who approved of Congress when Democrats were in charge, and liked everyone in the leadership. I do not believe we live in an oligarchy, or that the vast majority of Democratic elected officials at least are corrupt. Are you going to tell me that someone can openly say these things in either party and get anywhere with voters? If not, that makes it radical. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026/100 "2016-02-04T02:47:12Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No, what’s radical is that I don’t think we need a “political revolution”, or to get money out of politics or make other fundamental changes to our electoral system, or that America needs to get great again, etc. Then you’re about as radical as HRC. Who ain’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-pro-hillary-rant-is-cathartic-for-me/745026.md?page=6)