# This scene in ROTK made me SICK **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 26, 2004, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119 "2004-01-26T06:31:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/21 "2004-01-27T06:52:48Z")
> [@Sam Hell](#): > > Funny, my least favorite scene was the poor horses getting stomped by the Oliphaunts (though their entrance was very badass. You have to love guys who ride into battle singing). Denethor was just totally gone by then, was my assumption. I wish they’d said why he hated Faramir. John Noble, who played Denethor, said on the Two Towers extended edition that his thought maybe something along the lines of his wife having died in childbirth when delivering Faramir and whenever he sees Faramir he’s reminded of his dead wife. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/22 "2004-01-27T14:04:19Z")
I thought for sure the OP was referring to the “Release the prisoners!” scene. Um, yuck. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/23 "2004-01-27T15:12:29Z")
> [@Silentgoldfish](#): > > John Noble, who played Denethor, said on the Two Towers extended edition that his thought maybe something along the lines of his wife having died in childbirth when delivering Faramir and whenever he sees Faramir he’s reminded of his dead wife. He’s slightly off-target there. Denethor’s wife died when Faramir was very young, though, and this loss had a very powerful effect on him. The impression I always had that Faramir was very much like his mother and Denethor pushed him away because of the emotional pain the association caused. Ever wonder why he was made Captain of the Ithilien Rangers, far away from the court at Minas Tirith? Also, don’t forget that Faramir was close to Gandalf and Denethor had become very suspicious and distrustful of the wizard. In his eyes, Gandalf was using him as a tool to fend off Mordor and when he was used up, Gandalf would bring in Aragorn to reclaim the throne of Gondor. Incidentally, that flashback scene with Faramir, Boromir, and Denethor in TTT:EE is the one cut scene that I most wish had made it to the theatrical version. As for the scene in question, it’s very powerful. However, it’s actually the way the scene is directed that makes Denethor look repulsive rather than his own words or actions. He’s eating roast chicken breast and tomatoes, not exactly a sumptuous feast. There’s a lot of food on his table (but not on his plate), but it is the Lord’s table and has a certain standard to uphold. Also, table manners weren’t exactly of modern standard in the medieval world and things like napkins were unknown. Even a fastidious eater would look like a slobberchops when photographed the way Denethor was, with a camera two feet in front of their face and a microphone amplifying natural eating sounds to a high level (although I’m sure it was foley artists producing the lip-smacking sounds rather than John Noble.) ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/24 "2004-01-27T16:29:05Z")
I also thought this scene was very powerful - the acting (Billy Boyd - wow), music and directing all worked together so well - although in general the potrayal of Denethor was weak in the film. Too many people who hadn’t read the books wound up wondering why he went crazy and why he didn’t like Faramir. By the way, I thought David Wenham did a fantastic job with the relatively small amount of screen time he was given. PS - I’m still enjoying the LOTR threads here in SD. I’m surrounded in “real life” by people who either dislike LOTR (which is fine with me, truly, just respect my love for it) or don’t follow films, so it’s good to have other people to discuss them with, even when I disagree. Love you guys ---
**Author:** ![moi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@moi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moi)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/25 "2004-01-27T18:07:00Z")
> [@GMRyujin](#): > > Horrible, gut-wrenching to watch, and yet a magnificent example of directing. If I was a film teacher, I’d show that clip over and over and say, “This, my friends, is how you rip your audience’s heart out.” Because it wasn’t cheaply sentimental, it was genuinely gut-wrenching. Hear, hear! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/26 "2004-01-27T18:40:42Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > Incidentally, that flashback scene with Faramir, Boromir, and Denethor in TTT:EE is the one cut scene that I most wish had made it to the theatrical version. Amen! I’ve said exactly the same in other LoTR threads. I’ve also told my non-book-reading friends to be sure to see that version so they can better understand the whole Gondor story-line. I can’t figure out why Jackson changed the Denethor character so drastically. I thought the book-Denethor was such an interesting character while the movie-Denethor was more annoying than anything else. It’s unclear why the latter would be considered “more theatrical” if that was the reason for the change. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/27 "2004-01-28T02:39:29Z")
What struck me is that Pippin is also probably starving at this point, and he has to stand there and watch this guy pig out. And yeah, their standards of etiquette probably weren’t the same as our’s. Unless there’s a Middle-Earth equivalent of Miss Manners? ---
**Author:** ![Tarrsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@Tarrsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarrsk)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/28 "2004-01-28T03:23:37Z")
But Pippen’s _always_ starving! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/29 "2004-01-28T04:13:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > What struck me is that Pippin is also probably starving at this point, and he has to stand there and watch this guy pig out. Very astute there. In the book, after being dismissed from Denethor’s presence, Pippin grouses to his fellow guardsman Beregond that hobbits are not accustomed to standing and waiting while others eat and drink. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/30 "2004-01-28T04:48:39Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Amen! I’ve said exactly the same in other LoTR threads. I’ve also told my non-book-reading friends to be sure to see that version so they can better understand the whole Gondor story-line. > > I can’t figure out why Jackson changed the Denethor character so drastically. I thought the book-Denethor was such an interesting character while the movie-Denethor was more annoying than anything else. It’s unclear why the latter would be considered “more theatrical” if that was the reason for the change. I think the scene would have been great in the threatrical release not only for revealing more of the Faramir/Boromir/Denethor relationship, but for the emotional resonance of seeing Boromir again. I guarantee a full-house opening night crowd would have broken into applause and cheers when the scene cut to Sean Bean giving his “For Gondor!” speech. I don’t think Jackson so much changed the character of Denethor as foreshortened it by removing depth and nuance. It’s not like PJ is inventing scenes to make Denethor look bad. In the books, Denethor does make Pippin sing to him while he eats alone, seemingly unconcerned with the fate of his son. He also gives in to despair and does things like order the men of Gondor to abandon their posts and he does try to burn himself and Faramir alive. In the movies, we aren’t shown the circumstances that mitigate or explain his behavior and make him more sympathetic. A big part of that is just time compression. We don’t see much of the guy and suddenly his son is seemingly dead and he goes off the deep end. I’m pretty sure that the ROTK:EE will go a long way in expanding Denethor’s character, just as TTT:EE did for Faramir. (Remember the “Jackson-is-a-character-assassin!” teeth-gnashing and hair-pulling after TTT hit the theaters?) Denethor’s death scene was a mess, but I’m guessing that having him burn to death was a ratings issue. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/31 "2004-01-28T07:09:45Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > I think the scene would have been great in the threatrical release not only for revealing more of the Faramir/Boromir/Denethor relationship, but for the emotional resonance of seeing Boromir again. I guarantee a full-house opening night crowd would have broken into applause and cheers when the scene cut to Sean Bean giving his “For Gondor!” speech. > > I don’t think Jackson so much changed the character of Denethor as foreshortened it by removing depth and nuance. It’s not like PJ is inventing scenes to make Denethor look bad. In the books, Denethor does make Pippin sing to him while he eats alone, seemingly unconcerned with the fate of his son. He also gives in to despair and does things like order the men of Gondor to abandon their posts and he does try to burn himself and Faramir alive. In the movies, we aren’t shown the circumstances that mitigate or explain his behavior and make him more sympathetic. > > A big part of that is just time compression. We don’t see much of the guy and suddenly his son is seemingly dead and he goes off the deep end. I’m pretty sure that the ROTK:EE will go a long way in expanding Denethor’s character, just as TTT:EE did for Faramir. (Remember the “Jackson-is-a-character-assassin!” teeth-gnashing and hair-pulling after TTT hit the theaters?) Denethor’s death scene was a mess, but I’m guessing that having him burn to death was a ratings issue. I think there is at least one change from the book. I don’t believe Denethor sent Faramir out to be slaughtered in the book. I believe that he was wounded (by the Nazgul) coming back from Osgiliath. So Denethor did not order him to go out once again and to certain death. In that regard Denethor’s actions were different. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/32 "2004-01-28T08:01:32Z")
> [@sjc](#): > > I think there is at least one change from the book. I don’t believe Denethor sent Faramir out to be slaughtered in the book. I believe that he was wounded (by the Nazgul) coming back from Osgiliath. So Denethor did not order him to go out once again and to certain death. In that regard Denethor’s actions were different. I think you have this wrong. It happened almost exactly the same in the book as in the film. It all takes place in the first half of Chapter 4 of Book V. Denethor says “we should not lightly abandon the outer defenses,” though Faramir strongly advises him that their forces would be best deployed elsewhere but Osgiliath. Denethor tries to make Faramir feel bad by saying that Boromir wouldn’t have let him down. It ends with “But if I should return, think better of me!” and “That depends on the manner of your return.” One minor difference is that having been made casualty on the battlefield, Faramir is carried in by Imrahil rather than dragged in by his horse. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/33 "2004-01-28T08:05:03Z")
To continue the hijack about the Denethor, Boromir and Faramir scene cut from the theatrical release, I feel it’s Faramir that gets abused the most by its absence. When I first saw the Two Towers, I was unimpressed with the way that Faramir was presented. I didn’t understand why Jackson decided to diverge from the book by having Faramir drag Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath, seemingly seduced by the Ring. In the book, he appears to have a stronger will than Boromir. The missing scene, however, gives an entirely different motivation for his decision, and actually _deepens_ the character development of Faramir, rather than making him look just as susceptible to the Ring as his brother. Getting back to the ‘Denethor eating’ scene, I agree that it was one of the more evocative scenes in RotK. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/34 "2004-01-28T12:47:50Z")
> [@](#): > > It all takes place in the first half of Chapter 4 of Book V. Denethor says “we should not lightly abandon the outer defenses,” though Faramir strongly advises him that their forces would be best deployed elsewhere but Osgiliath. In the book though, its not a hopeless cause. They hadn’t lost the ford yet and might still hold out. In the movie, Denethor’s just sending people to die. (Yeah “20 charging knights across a plain to attack a city” is going work :rolleyes: ). Tis is one of the most irritating things I’ve seen. The main characters constantly make truly boneheaded military decisions because PJ couldn’t be bothered to ask someone who actually knew what they were doing. And yes, it does grate me to see really stupid stuff, especially because Tolkein didn’t put it in. And Because PJ uses it to dump on his other characters: Theoden, Denethor… ---
**Author:** ![Tarrsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@Tarrsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarrsk)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/35 "2004-01-28T13:04:43Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > In the book though, its not a hopeless cause. They hadn’t lost the ford yet and might still hold out. In the movie, Denethor’s just sending people to die. (Yeah “20 charging knights across a plain to attack a city” is going work :rolleyes: ). Tis is one of the most irritating things I’ve seen. The main characters constantly make truly boneheaded military decisions because PJ couldn’t be bothered to ask someone who actually knew what they were doing. > > And yes, it does grate me to see really stupid stuff, especially because Tolkein didn’t put it in. And Because PJ uses it to dump on his other characters: Theoden, Denethor… How else would you have gotten it across in the time that PJ had available to him? In the book, Faramir’s attempt to retake Osgiliath is nearly a full-on battle in its own right, and is explained by way of later exposition. The important things about that part of the story have nothing to do with realistic strategy (keep in mind we’re talking about a fatalistically loyal son and his gone-off-the-deep-end father here), and everything about showing: (a) Denethor’s loss of judgement, and disdain/ anger for his younger son (b) Faramir’s gentle nature and utter loyalty to Gondor, which is why he not only does as Denethor asks, but refuses Gandalf’s plea for him to turn back (c) The love Faramir inspires in his soldiers: they all know that their mission is essentially doomed to failure, but go with their captain anyway. IMO, it gets all those things across beautifully, and even manages to throw in Pippin’s response for good measure. An absolutely flawless example of directorial “show-not-tell.” > [@](#): > > I think the scene would have been great in the threatrical release not only for revealing more of the Faramir/Boromir/Denethor relationship, but for the emotional resonance of seeing Boromir again. I guarantee a full-house opening night crowd would have broken into applause and cheers when the scene cut to Sean Bean giving his “For Gondor!” speech. I agree completely. Frankly, as far as I’m concerned, the Extended Edition of **The Two Towers** is now undisputably THE official version of the movie, simply for the inclusion of this scene. Forget the theatrical version; this is the real movie. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119/36 "2004-01-28T13:06:07Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > It’s not like PJ is inventing scenes to make Denethor look bad. In the books, Denethor does make Pippin sing to him while he eats alone, seemingly unconcerned with the fate of his son. … Denethor’s death scene was a mess, but I’m guessing that having him burn to death was a ratings issue. 1. No he doesn’t. Pippin is asked if he can sing, and he explains that he only knows simple country songs, and Denethor rhetorically asked what difference that makes? As the guardians of the Shire’s freedom (by being in Mordor’s way) they’ve surely earned the right to hear the songs of the people they protect. However, after thus putting Pippin on the spot, he spares him the embarrassment of actually singing - and he gets on with Steward’s business. 2. So having a grief-stricken Gandalf shut the door as Denethor lays himself down on the burning pyre yelling “Fools! You’re all doomed! I have seen it!” and brandishing his _palantir_ would have been out of the question? That’s how Tolkien handled it, pretty much. The only respect in which I found the “Denethor eating scene” gut-wrenching was in how much it traduced a flawed but interesting character. Still, all the more time to spend on sugaring about with the Frodo-Sam-Gollum dynamic, I guess. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-scene-in-rotk-made-me-sick/226119.md?page=1)