# This story about people being ticked for parking in their own driveways totally confuses me **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 17, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022 "2009-06-17T02:13:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/21 "2009-06-17T13:21:12Z")
> [@Harmonious\_Discord](#): > > Yes. So? Do you think the article’s writer is above writing it in a way to attract readers? Do you think an anonymous commenter is above exagerrating? Who has more credibility, a journalist with a byline, or an anonymous commenter? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/22 "2009-06-17T14:56:14Z")
> [@Harmonious\_Discord](#): > > Yes. So? Do you think the article’s writer is above writing it in a way to attract readers? > > Read the comments under the article to get a better idea of what is happening. Granted there is a lot of clutter in the comments. Suggestion: Read the article in _The Blade_ and look at the picture therein. My thought: the person who posted to the comments section might be the person who called in the complaint in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/23 "2009-06-17T15:13:34Z")
Here is the ordinance: > [@](#): > > (a) No person, in any of the following places where signs are not required, shall: > > * * * > > (33) Stand or park a vehicle upon any unpaved portion of a front lot or side lot in any residence district, or upon any unpaved portion of a vacant lot in any residence district, except as otherwise permitted under the local Zoning Ordinance, Part Eleven of the Toledo Municipal Code. [http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Ohio/toledo/partthree-trafficcode/titleseven-parking/chapter351parkinggenerally?f=templates$fn=document-frame.htm$3.0$q=unpaved%20$x=server#LPHit1](http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Ohio/toledo/partthree-trafficcode/titleseven-parking/chapter351parkinggenerally?f=templates$fn=document-frame.htm$3.0$q=unpaved%20$x=server#LPHit1) ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/24 "2009-06-17T15:48:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Who has more credibility, a journalist with a byline, or an anonymous commenter? That’s a tough call. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ducati](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cc9497/32.png) [@ducati](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ducati)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/25 "2009-06-17T15:57:44Z")
It’s one thing to try to keep the community nice by keeping cars off the lawn, but this man \*\*has \*\*no paved driveway. It’s gravel. Is he supposed to drop 6 grand for a paved driveway? Clearly he’s not capable of that, and as I watch the mayor of Toledo dodge and ignore questions from the media, I find him to be an arrogant ass. > **[Video News - CNN](https://www.cnn.com/videos)** > > Watch breaking news videos, viral videos and original video clips on CNN.com. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/26 "2009-06-17T16:00:04Z")
I saw this on the news. He has a nice graveled driveway. Law says he can’t use it unless it’s paved. No parking on any unpaved area. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/27 "2009-06-17T16:03:25Z")
I was bringing to everybody’s attention material not in the article for consideration by the people here. You were just shooting down the information, because the article’s author did not mention it. This thread asked for help understanding why the article was confusing as written. I will not turn this into a debate about who I should believe is more credible when I know neither of these people and they both are likely to only give facts in ways that serve their own purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/28 "2009-06-17T16:57:47Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > Here is the ordinance: > > [http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Ohio/toledo/partthree-trafficcode/titleseven-parking/chapter351parkinggenerally?f=templates$fn=document-frame.htm$3.0$q=unpaved%20$x=server#LPHit1](http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Ohio/toledo/partthree-trafficcode/titleseven-parking/chapter351parkinggenerally?f=templates$fn=document-frame.htm$3.0$q=unpaved%20$x=server#LPHit1) I guess you have to subscribe in order to get access. What I’m asking, though, is if that’s a vehicle code, or a housing code? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/29 "2009-06-17T17:05:44Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I guess you have to subscribe in order to get access. What I’m asking, though, is if that’s a vehicle code, or a housing code? 1. Nope. Apparently, you can’t link to an internal page (or at least not within the time limit set by my attention span). Here is the code: [http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Ohio/toledo/toledomunicipalcode?fn=altmain-nf.htm$f=templates$3.0&vid=amlegal:toledo\_oh](http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Ohio/toledo/toledomunicipalcode?fn=altmain-nf.htm$f=templates$3.0&vid=amlegal:toledo_oh) 2. It’s part of the Traffic Code, section 351.07. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/30 "2009-06-17T17:36:05Z")
> [@Winsling](#): > > At a guess, the driveway is asphalt leading back to the garage, with a wide unpaved area for turning around, extra space for guests, etc. From the linked article, “Mayor Finkbeiner said residents who were ticketed in fact broke the law for parking on a part of a drive that was not paved.” In the video, there is not a single part of the driveway that is paved. Neither my parents’ house in Michigan, nor my uncle’s house in Ohio (or any single one of his neighbors) have paved driveways. They are all gravel and are considered a type of “pavement”. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/31 "2009-06-17T17:51:30Z")
> [@ducati](#): > > It’s one thing to try to keep the community nice by keeping cars off the lawn, but this man \*\*has \*\*no paved driveway. It’s gravel. Is he supposed to drop 6 grand for a paved driveway? > Clearly he’s not capable of that, and as I watch the mayor of Toledo dodge and ignore questions from the media, I find him to be an arrogant ass. > > [http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2009/06/16/dnt.driveway.parking.ticket.wtvg?iref=videosearch](http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2009/06/16/dnt.driveway.parking.ticket.wtvg?iref=videosearch) Carty arrogant? You must be joking! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/32 "2009-06-17T19:11:44Z")
> [@ducati](#): > > It’s one thing to try to keep the community nice by keeping cars off the lawn, but this man \*\*has \*\*no paved driveway. It’s gravel. Is he supposed to drop 6 grand for a paved driveway? > Clearly he’s not capable of that, and as I watch the mayor of Toledo dodge and ignore questions from the media, I find him to be an arrogant ass. All together now: “Driving is a privilege, not a right”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/33 "2009-06-17T20:35:06Z")
If anyone’s still confused regarding what a “turn-around portion” of a driveway is, look up 2610 N. Holland Sylvania Road, Toledo, Ohio 43615, on Google maps. The driveway has a spur that’s used for turning the car so you don’t have to back out into a busy street. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/34 "2009-06-17T21:30:14Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > In the video, there is not a single part of the driveway that is paved. Neither my parents’ house in Michigan, nor my uncle’s house in Ohio (or any single one of his neighbors) have paved driveways. They are all gravel and are considered a type of “pavement”. According to the Toledo Blade article that \*\*DSYoungEsq \*\*linked to, that seems to be the opinion of the Police Union president and the City Councilman who represents this area, too. > [@](#): > > Both Mr. Collins and Mr. Wagner said crushed-stone surfaces are a type of pavement. > > “When I would go out to someone’s house, I wouldn’t even issue a ticket,” Mr. Wagner said This is looking to turn into an ugly internal political battle for the Toledo city government. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/35 "2009-06-18T02:00:33Z")
All political battles in Toledo are ugly internal ones. The Republican Party in the city is so dominated by the Democrats that the Democrats have actually split into two factions: the “A” Team and the “B” Team. I honestly forget which side Carty is on (the other side includes the prior mayor, Jack Ford, who took over from Carty when Carty was term-limited out several years ago), but almost all political battles are, behind the scenes, A-team v. B-team battles. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/36 "2009-06-18T02:57:41Z")
I was watching a Toledo Channel’s news last night (36, I think), who were interviewing a lawyer (Napolitono, not sure of his first name. That name sounds recently familiar, but I’m not sure from where. He was interviewing from New York for what it’s worth. Anywho…). I’ll attempt to channel what he said: There are three problems with the ticketing of the cars. First, the city charter only authorizes police officer to give these tickets, not Streets, Bridges and Harbor employees. Second, even for the police to give these tickets, they would need a warrant to enter the property to give the tickets. Third, he said that since this was a law which had not been enforced for a long time (he called it a dormant law), it violates the Due Process clause of the U.S. constitution. To begin enforcing that law, the city would have to publish a notice that they were going to be enforcing it. Me again. In the TV piece, they showed several driveways, all of which were all gravel. At least one person interviewed pointed to a gravel area where he said his car was parked when it received its ticket. ETA: All the properties shown had chain link fences in front, with closable gates (closed for the TV piece, at least), with the cars parked beyond the fence. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/37 "2009-06-18T16:18:17Z")
Well, now we reach the realm of the sillier. The attorney in question is probably wrong on all three counts. First of all, the City passed an ordinance allowing the Streets, Bridges and Harbor employees to write citations for Vehicle ordinance violations (the reason being to allow them to deal with improperly parked cars during snow clearing operations). Now, unless the attorney had the city’s charter right in front of him, wherein it specifically states that ONLY police officers can be allowed to write citations, then there would be no reason that the city couldn’t let other employees write them. As far as the warrant goes, if a violation of the law is seen from off the property, then no warrant is needed to enter the property to attend to the violation. Remember, we aren’t talking something happening in the house here. The expectation of privacy in your front yard is very low. If the lawyer was right, the city would need a warrant to, say, put up notice of code violations on the door of a home. :rolleyes: As for dormant statute: this is simply speculation on his part. He has no knowledge of the last time prior to this that this section of code was enforced. It is likely that they use it all the time to combat vehicles parked on lawns in the seedier sections of town. But the sort of situation he’s talking about involves something unused for a long, long time. And it’s not as simple as he makes it out to be. [If you go north along the street here, you will see the area in question.](http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Holland-Sylvania+toledo+ohio&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=18.021622,56.953125&ie=UTF8&ll=41.669578,-83.682518&spn=0,359.777527&z=13&iwloc=B&layer=c&cbll=41.669653,-83.682519&panoid=s1AoBT60DSOP72YdlX8ctA&cbp=12,207.8,,0,8.49) At the time they took this film, Holland-Sylvania was undergoing a massive reconstruction. As you can see, not all have chain link fences. And those as do usually keep them open. So that’s not really an issue, and it wouldn’t stop someone from simply opening the gate to come in and deal with the violation, even if they were. This does not mean that what the City’s commissioner did was necessarily valid. One argument that can certainly be tried is that “gravel” is a type of pavement. If this is not true, then large numbers of homes in the city, especially on its fringes, where they annexed areas that were relatively rural originally, will be unable to park legally without “paving” their driveways. Thus, there would be a valid distinction between simple dirt, and what most of these homes have, which is pea-gravel. Second, a related concept to this “dormant law” idea is one of “selective enforcement.” It can be a violation of due process if the City selectively enforces the ordinance only in certain circumstances. If they are not going to go out and ticket everyone who is parked on something other than asphalt or concrete, and if they cannot show a valid interpretation of the ordinance that establishes that the cars ticketed by the Commissioner were in violation when cars parked on gravel elsewhere are not, then they are picking and choosing their victims and that’s generally not allowed (I’m not going to go into a big long-winded exposition of due process law on the subject, which will make everyone happy, I’m sure :p). And then, there is the law of common sense. But that law tends not to be applied a lot in Toledo. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/38 "2009-06-18T17:40:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Now, unless the attorney had the city’s charter right in front of him, wherein it specifically states that ONLY police officers can be allowed to write citations, then there would be no reason that the city couldn’t let other employees write them. Perhaps he did. [It’s available online](http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Ohio/toledo/charterofthecityoftoledoohio?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:toledo_oh) (I skimmed it a bit just now, but I don’t know what to look for, really, and don’t have the time to read it all). > [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > As for dormant statute: this is simply speculation on his part. He has no knowledge of the last time prior to this that this section of code was enforced. :dubious: Isn’t this simply speculation on your part? Isn’t it true that you have no knowledge of what knowledge the attorney has? > [@](#): > > It is likely that they use it all the time to combat vehicles parked on lawns in the seedier sections of town. But the sort of situation he’s talking about involves something unused for a long, long time. And it’s not as simple as he makes it out to be. I believe he said something to the effect that the ordinance was passed \ years ago and was never used until now. They were interviewing him for several minutes, and it’s hard for me to remember everything he said. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/39 "2009-06-18T17:48:38Z")
A more fundamental problem with the “dormant law” defense is described here: > [@](#): > > If you find yourself on the wrong end of an ancient law, you might have a special defense: desuetude. The desuetude defense bars prosecutions based on long-unenforced regulations and laws that are what we call malum prohibitum – wrong because the law says they are – like speeding. **Unfortunately, this defense is controversial in every U.S. jurisdiction except for West Virginia.** You might also claim selective enforcement, but you’d have to prove “both that the enforcement had a discriminatory effect and that it was motivated by a discriminatory intent.” It’s a hard case to make. (Emphasis added.) [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2792/are-those-weird-laws-you-hear-about-for-real](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2792/are-those-weird-laws-you-hear-about-for-real) ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022/40 "2009-06-18T18:07:30Z")
If parking on an unpaved driveway – that is a gravel/crushed stone driveway, not one that’s just dirt that might’ve once been a yard – is illegal in Toledo city limits, then it seems that it should be illegal to _have_ such a driveway, given that people _will_, at some point or another, park in their driveway (or have guests, servicepeople, etc. park there). Why would the city allow something to exist that cannot be legally used? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-story-about-people-being-ticked-for-parking-in-their-own-driveways-totally-confuses-me/500022.md?page=3)