# This stupid fucking bag ban in California **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 27, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112 "2016-11-27T00:02:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/1 "2016-11-27T00:02:43Z")
Why, oh why, did people vote for this shit? If you’re not aware already, this election CA voters chose to ban all single-use bags from retailers. Meaning you need to bring your own bags anywhere to shop, and if you don’t have bags with you because you forgot or whatever, you now have to pay a fee (at my local grocery store it’s 10 cents per bag) for a ‘reusable’ plastic or paper bag (they are thicker than the ones that were provided for free before). Yay, more shit that disproportionately fucks over the poor! I know a bunch of wealthy\* fuckheads who think they’re champions of “the environment” and all that is righteous gleefully vote for shit like this because it makes them feel good about what a “difference” they’re making. To you, 10 cents a bag is nothing at all, so if you forget your designer-brand cross-stitched vegan organic hemp bags one day (which inevitably happens to everyone), it doesn’t affect you to have to pay the fee. But when you’re poor, it does matter. And on top of that, I used to save every single “single-use” plastic bag I got from the grocery store and use them as trash bags for small trash cans (as do lots of people, poor and better-off alike). Now I actually have to _buy_ trash bags, where I would have been using those. How is this helping the environment again? \*To me, this includes a lot of people who strongly believe they are not wealthy but rather “middle class”, and often kind of in denial about how vastly more comfortable and better off they are than a rather enormous segment of the world population, as well as even a big chunk of the U.S. population living in poverty. ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/2 "2016-11-27T00:12:37Z")
Oh, get over it. People will learn not to forget their bags. And you don’t NEED a plastic liner in every receptacle. As to why people voted for it: [it works](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-plastic-bag-bans-work/). "A plastic bag tax levied in Ireland in 2002 has reportedly led to a 95 percent reduction in plastic bag litter there. And a study by San Jose, California found that a 2011 ban instituted there has led to plastic litter reduction of “approximately 89 percent in the storm drain system, 60 percent in the creeks and rivers, and 59 percent in City streets and neighborhoods.” ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/3 "2016-11-27T00:12:53Z")
That would make me crazy, and I can guarantee you, I would never remember my own reusable bags. I also reuse the ones grocery stores give for free (at least they still do where I live.) Ten cents a bag may not seem like much but, it can add up each week. ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/4 "2016-11-27T00:17:47Z")
> [@Patx2](#): > > That would make me crazy, and I can guarantee you, I would never remember my own reusable bags. Really? Then consider the 10c/bag a stupidity tax. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/5 "2016-11-27T00:26:03Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > Oh, get over it. People will learn not to forget their bags. > [@araminty](#): > > Really? Then consider the 10c/bag a stupidity tax. You know goddamn well that the people this really hurts most are poor people, and for various reasons many just aren’t going to have or bring bags with them the vast majority of the time (some of those reasons may indeed be “their own fault” in some kind of inherent character flaw, yes). But as long as you are happy to keep the impoverished underclass down because hey, they are lesser than you, it’s OK, right? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/6 "2016-11-27T00:32:52Z")
Also, sometimes the reasons a person doesn’t bring bags with them just _aren’t_ their fault. When you voted for this horrible, stupid, extremely regressive tax, did you think about the person who is coming home on the bus from their 2nd job shift of the day, exhausted, sick, and stressed as hell, and their kid calls to say they need milk or whatever? So they now have to stop at the store and pay this extra tax on the poor that they didn’t have to deal with before? Fuck off with your idealism. It has its place in shaping policy, but **this is not it**. I really hope this prop gets repealed in the next election cycle now that people will see how much it sucks, but I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Morelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Morelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morelin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/7 "2016-11-27T00:48:09Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Also, sometimes the reasons a person doesn’t bring bags with them just _aren’t_ their fault. When you voted for this horrible, stupid, extremely regressive tax, did you think about the person who is coming home on the bus from their 2nd job shift of the day, exhausted, sick, and stressed as hell, and their kid calls to say they need milk or whatever? So they now have to stop at the store and pay this extra tax on the poor that they didn’t have to deal with before? You need a bag for one container of milk? Just carry it. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/8 "2016-11-27T00:48:33Z")
Oh, boo-hoo. L.A. County’s had this plastic bag ban for four fucking years, now you all can suffer with the rest of us. Yes, it took a year for me to remember to bring my fucking bags to the store each time, and it took two years for cashiers to learn how to properly bag groceries in reusable fucking bags. But hey, they’re right about the reduction in plastic bag littering, you’ll notice it too eventually. And pro tip: The ban only applies to large retailers like groceries and department stores. Small businesses like liquor stores and cigarette shops still provide free plastic bags to fulfill your plastic bag needs. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/9 "2016-11-27T00:53:26Z")
> [@Morelin](#): > > You need a bag for one container of milk? Just carry it. That’s seriously your counter-argument to that? And if it’s 2, 3, 4, etc. things? Maybe they can put them in their pockets to ride with on the bus? Or perhaps they need to just be keeping their reusable bags with them at all times, wherever they go, just in case? There is no way around the fact that this is a severely regressive tax on the poor, and since when did we decide that’s the right way to go? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/10 "2016-11-27T00:54:12Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > You know goddamn well that the people this really hurts most are poor people, and for various reasons many just aren’t going to have or bring bags with them the vast majority of the time (some of those reasons may indeed be “their own fault” in some kind of inherent character flaw, yes). But as long as you are happy to keep the impoverished underclass down because hey, they are lesser than you, it’s OK, right? I still don’t get why this is going to be such a burden on poor people, even those that ride the bus. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/11 "2016-11-27T00:54:53Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Oh, boo-hoo. L.A. County’s had this plastic bag ban for four fucking years, now you all can suffer with the rest of us. Again, horrible argument for enacting an extremely regressive tax on the poor which blatantly fucks them over, in order to further bolster the wealthy’s sense of self-righteousness. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/12 "2016-11-27T00:58:11Z")
Well, if conservatives are so concerned and charitable all of a sudden, they could set up “bags for the poor” charities and just hand them out at soup kitchens and monster-truck rallies and public schools and other places poor people hang out. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/13 "2016-11-27T00:58:29Z")
So let me see if I understand you, OP. You claim that there is a population of poor people in the US who are so poor that a charge of 10¢ for a grocery bag is going to drive them into destitution, but yet they are so careless about the matter that they constantly fail to bring their own reusable bags. Do you have a cite for anyone being driven to destitution by this peculiar combination of grinding poverty and happy-go-lucky forgetfulness? Or are you just bitching about your own imaginary personal inconvenience which sounds more like you just can’t deal with change or have some kind of memory problem, and thought it would be fun to use a fake concern for poor people as a straw man argument? The important reason for phasing out plastic bags is that they are an environmental scourge. Besides the raw materials for their manufacture, as I said in a different thread earlier this year the plastics we consume are ending up in our environment on land and especially in the ocean – see [Great Pacific Garbage Patch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch) for one vivid illustration. The plastics turn into microplastic particulates that are ingested by all kinds of marine life and threaten ocean life and bidiversity in several important ways. They can become bound to toxic metals and PCBs through adsorption and other processes and make their way up the food chain. At the current rate of plastic pollution, by around 2050 the total mass of plastic in the world’s oceans will outweigh the fish. I realize, of course, that _ **you** _, dear poster, would never, ever pollute the environment because, like everyone else who has ever posted on such matters, you are Extremely Responsible. Yes, everyone who bloviates about it is awesomely responsible. Yet somehow the problem just keeps getting worse, and leading the way are all those jurisdictions that still haven’t banned plastic bags. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/14 "2016-11-27T00:59:19Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I still don’t get why this is going to be such a burden on poor people, even those that ride the bus. OK, we’ll work through it so maybe you can get it: - The bag cost is a flat rate for everyone (here it’s 10 cents a bag, but maybe in other places it’s different). - To a person who makes minimum wage, $0.10 is a (much) higher percentage of their income than it is to someone who make $150K/year. - This is called a “regressive tax”. - Regressive taxes are bad. - You can argue that nobody _has_ to pay it because they just need to remember to bring their bags with them at all times. But as I’ve already pointed out, sometimes there are simply extenuating circumstances, and those are far more likely to affect the impoverished than they are the wealthy who can generally take more time to plan things out. ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/15 "2016-11-27T01:00:17Z")
I wonder what the margins on a 10c plastic bag are. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/16 "2016-11-27T01:01:53Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > You know goddamn well that the people this really hurts most are poor people, and for various reasons many just aren’t going to have or bring bags with them the vast majority of the time (some of those reasons may indeed be “their own fault” in some kind of inherent character flaw, yes). But as long as you are happy to keep the impoverished underclass down because hey, they are lesser than you, it’s OK, right? What a strange rant. Do poor people have worse memories? Is it really so much easier to fold up a plastic bag and put it in your pocket if you have a butler and a Mercedes than if you have a working class job and take the bus? Surely, if 10c is a significant amount of money to you, you will remember. If it’s not, you won’t. In general, progressive income tax is better for poor people and consumption tax is worse for poor people, granted. But in this case, there’s a very obvious reason why this must be a consumption tax in order for it be effective for the environment. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/17 "2016-11-27T01:02:38Z")
I’ve seen people walk out of the supermarket carrying their groceries, unbagged, in their hands. I’ve seen people stuff their groceries in their bookbags/backpacks or purses. People manage, somehow, to cope with these laws. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/18 "2016-11-27T01:04:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if conservatives are so concerned and charitable all of a sudden, they could set up “bags for the poor” charities and just hand them out at soup kitchens and monster-truck rallies and public schools and other places poor people hang out. Who said anything about conservatives? I’m a liberal, and oppose regressive taxes on the poor. Isn’t that supposed to be the liberal way? ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/19 "2016-11-27T01:09:46Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > - You can argue that nobody _has_ to pay it because they just need to remember to bring their bags with them at all times. But as I’ve already pointed out, sometimes there are simply extenuating circumstances, and those are far more likely to affect the impoverished than they are the wealthy who can generally take more time to plan things out. Mark my words – if paying 10¢ is such a financial hardship, you will quickly learn to remember your bags when visiting the store. It’s called behavioral conditioning, Ivan Pavlov discovered it. > [@wolfpup](#): > > The important reason for phasing out plastic bags is that they are an environmental scourge. Besides the raw materials for their manufacture, as I said in a different thread earlier this year the plastics we consume are ending up in our environment on land and especially in the ocean – see [Great Pacific Garbage Patch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch) for one vivid illustration. The plastics turn into microplastic particulates that are ingested by all kinds of marine life and threaten ocean life and bidiversity in several important ways. They can become bound to toxic metals and PCBs through adsorption and other processes and make their way up the food chain. At the current rate of plastic pollution, by around 2050 the total mass of plastic in the world’s oceans will outweigh the fish. [Devil’s Advocate]: [Maybe the Earth wants plastic?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rld0KDcan_w) ---
**Author:** ![Lightlystarched](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Lightlystarched](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightlystarched)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/20 "2016-11-27T01:12:19Z")
I’ve been using my own bags for years. I keep a couple of market baskets and canvas ones in my car and have a small folding one in my purse. It is not a hardship. The baskets are awesome when you’re just getting a few things - put them in the basket, unload at the register, and back in the basket. They are super convenient and hold much more than regular bags. Nothing gets squished together either. My Baggu bag is always tucked away in my purse, always available and takes up very little space. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112.md?page=2)