# This stupid fucking bag ban in California **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 27, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112 "2016-11-27T00:02:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/61 "2016-11-27T03:43:44Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I’m sure that someone shopping for a family of 6-8 uses quite a few bags every week. And if Abuelita, with multiple untreated medical conditions (because that’s how it goes in America), doesn’t bring bags with her even one single time for any reason, it’s guaranteed to hurt someone living under the poverty line. Which as of 2016 is $32,580 for a family of **six** ($24,300 for a family of four, or $11,880 for someone living alone). And that’s 23.8% of CA’s 38 million people ([cite](http://www.ibtimes.com/fools-gold-california-has-highest-poverty-rate-united-states-1548707)), as of last census. You mentioned that it would hurt Granny. But is her grocery bag pain like her beard plucking pain? Or is her grocery bag pain more like her lumbago pain? I have no idea what grocery prices are like out there. I’m trying to figure out how much of an impact this actually has on folks. How much is Granny spending on bags per $100 of groceries? I can see it’s a real bug up your butt. But that’s not actually useful information for decisions making and judgement snapping. A specific amount would make it easier for me to sympathize with your plight. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/62 "2016-11-27T03:47:19Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Besides, I voted for Hillary, you dumbshit. I know you did, and you’re really, really missing the point. Go back to the top of the thread and re-read for comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/63 "2016-11-27T03:53:24Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > The profit does not go to the supermarkets. The revenue goes to the Wildlife Conservation Fund. K if that’s correct that’s notable, and better than them getting the entire fee, but since they are putting out “nicer” (i.e. thicker) bags now, I assume they must get a percentage of it to compensate them for costs right? ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/64 "2016-11-27T03:56:21Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Also, thanks for President Trump, because you are the very embodiment of how he got elected. Is this a new corollary to Godwin’s Law? The longer an Internet argument continues, the more likely someone will compare someone else to Donald Trump? > [@mind\_the\_gap](#): > > Their solution was to eliminate all the curbside parking and designate it as bicycle lanes. For the 6 people who use it a day I guess that’s really cool, but for the vast majority it sucks. Yeah! We’ve got those bike lanes everywhere down here too. It’s been years since I’ve seen an actual bike in any of them. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/65 "2016-11-27T03:56:32Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > …It’s bad enough California doesn’t have all-inclusive pricing, so what’s on the price tag and what you pay at the register are two totally different and seemingly unrelated amounts… Other than jurisdictions without any sales tax is there anywhere in the US where all-inclusive pricing is the norm? :dubious: I know it’s the norm in the rest of the World, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it in the US (well other than at vending machines). > [@wolfpup](#): > > Certainly, because whenever I go on holiday somewhere, the first thing I do when I arrive is go out grocery shopping, preferably to an authentic farmer’s market where I can get a couple of live chickens, and then I bring it all back to … wait, where do you stay when you’re on holiday? Well my mother always ended up going grocery shopping during our family vacations, but then again we always stayed at campgrounds instead of hotels. Granted it would’ve been trivial for her to keep reusable bags in the camper; she manages to keep her trunk full of them nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/66 "2016-11-27T04:02:22Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Is this a new corollary to Godwin’s Law? The longer an Internet argument continues, the more likely someone will compare someone else to Donald Trump? It’s the idea that smug liberal elite pricks such as **cochrane** , who explicitly admit to giving zero shits about the plight of poor people and openly mock issues that affect them, are the ones who drove many poor voters to Trump. The Democrats completely and utterly failed to send a message that they cared about them, even though in theory the Democrats are _supposed_ to be the party that has the backs of “the common people”. Regressive “fees” like this that fuck over the poor are not helping that image. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/67 "2016-11-27T04:07:05Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I’m sure that someone shopping for a family of 6-8 uses quite a few bags every week. And if Abuelita, with multiple untreated medical conditions (because that’s how it goes in America), doesn’t bring bags with her even one single time for any reason, it’s guaranteed to hurt someone living under the poverty line. Using your figures, that family would be out a grand total of _forty-one dollars per year_. Anyone whose finances are so precarious that they’re going to be driven into ruin by the loss of that little money - less than half an hour’s worth of pay at minimum wage per month - probably can’t afford to buy their own groceries in the first place. Moreover, I don’t know if this applies in CA, but up here where we’ve had bag bans in place for a few years, the fee for paper bags is waived if you’re paying with food stamps, making the net burden on low-income shoppers _zero_. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/68 "2016-11-27T04:15:54Z")
Here’s the thing: it isn’t about it driving people into total ruin on its own. Can we at least be in agreement that a few dollars a month (not sure if your figure is necessarily accurate, but whatever the real figure amounts to) is a hell of a lot more of a burden to someone trying to support their family of 4 on $25K (which is a huge number of people), than it is to a household of 2 that pulls in $200K+ between them? Because if you agree to that, you know this policy is inherently wrong. It doesn’t matter if they can survive it. Yeah, people will adapt and people will survive. It’s still wrong. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/69 "2016-11-27T04:18:04Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > K if that’s correct that’s notable, and better than them getting the entire fee, but since they are putting out “nicer” (i.e. thicker) bags now, I assume they must get a percentage of it to compensate them for costs right? You can read all about it here: [California Proposition 67, Plastic Bag Ban Veto Referendum (2016) - Ballotpedia](https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_67,_Plastic_Bag_Ban_Veto_Referendum_(2016)) > [@](#): > > Proposition 67 ratified Senate Bill 270. The measure was designed to prohibit large grocery stores and pharmacies from providing plastic single-use carryout bags and ban small grocery stores, convenience stores, and liquor stores from doing so the following year. It allowed single-use plastic bags for meat, bread, produce, bulk food, and perishable items. The measure required stores to charge 10 cents for recycled, compostable, and reusable grocery bags. Revenue from the charge was intended to cover the costs of non-plastic bags and educate consumers. Proposition 67 exempted consumers using a payment card or voucher issued by the California Special Supplemental Food Program from being charged for bags. The measure provided $2 million to state plastic bag manufacturers for the purpose of helping them retain jobs and transition to making thicker, multi-use, recycled plastic bags. And it appears I was incorrect. There was a competing measure, Prop 65, that failed that would have allocated funds to the Conservation Fund. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/70 "2016-11-27T04:21:02Z")
Ah, so the fee definitely _is_ further enriching the private corporations directly then? If you are _any sort of liberal_ you should oppose regressive taxes/fees in general, but you should oppose this **especially for that reason**. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/71 "2016-11-27T04:28:47Z")
One of my grandmothers used to have a wallet that unfolded into a cloth bag, back before stores started giving plastic bags. People would see her not carrying a basket or cart, then start giving funny looks when they saw that she was buying more than she probably could carry comfortably, then ask “where did you buy that?” after she paid, put the change into the wallet and proceeded to unfold said wallet into a very solid bag. The wallet part is red leather; the bag is made from the same kind of cloth used for umbrella covers, so it’s both light and sturdy. It’s magic, that bag. One of my cousins has it now, having asked for it as her token inheritance. And good thing she did ask for it; otherwise the five sisters in law might have started a war. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/72 "2016-11-27T04:30:09Z")
Well, it appears that the proposition does not apply to the poor so that rant goes out the window. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/73 "2016-11-27T04:31:02Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I know you did, and you’re really, really missing the point. Go back to the top of the thread and re-read for comprehension. What fucking point? The one on top of your head? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/74 "2016-11-27T04:34:47Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Well, it appears that the proposition does not apply to the poor so that rant goes out the window. That’s still not true though - not every poor person pays for every purchase specifically with a California Special Supplemental Food Program card, even if they’re on the program (which isn’t a given if they aren’t educated about their eligibility). (and also, not all cashiers will even know about the waiver, nor will all consumers, and even if they do, they may be embarrassed to specifically ask for it) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/75 "2016-11-27T04:36:14Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Here’s the thing: it isn’t about it driving people into total ruin on its own. > > Can we at least be in agreement that a few dollars a month (not sure if your figure is necessarily accurate, but whatever the real figure amounts to) is a hell of a lot more of a burden to someone trying to support their family of 4 on $25K (which is a huge number of people), than it is to a household of 2 that pulls in $200K+ between them? > > Because if you agree to that, you know this policy is inherently wrong. It doesn’t matter if they can survive it. Yeah, people will adapt and people will survive. It’s still wrong. Every cost, no matter the source, is a bigger deal to the folks who make drastically less money. That’s kind of what making drastically more money means. It doesn’t seem to be anything other than a minor inconvenience. :shrug: ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/76 "2016-11-27T04:37:16Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > It’s the idea that smug liberal elite pricks such as **cochrane** , who explicitly admit to giving zero shits about the plight of poor people and openly mock issues that affect them, are the ones who drove many poor voters to Trump. The Democrats completely and utterly failed to send a message that they cared about them, even though in theory the Democrats are _supposed_ to be the party that has the backs of “the common people”. Regressive “fees” like this that fuck over the poor are not helping that image. I’m on Social Security and get SNAP benefits, aka food stamps. I’m not well-off by any means, but if I had to pony up a whopping 10¢ extra per (reusable) bag, I’m sure I could scrape it up from under the couch cushions. Also, bite me. I don’t have a dog in this hunt, I’m just giving you a hard time because it’s the Pit, and I can. You’re just whining because you can’t get free bags to pick up your dog shit. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/77 "2016-11-27T04:38:51Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > What fucking point? The one on top of your head? Just read the thread a few more times and you’ll get it eventually! There’s no shame in being slow. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/78 "2016-11-27T04:42:44Z")
I’m genuinely puzzled about what’s going on here. Is this a post-Trump phenomenon? In the big picture everything is going to shit, so we’re going to get inexplicably angry and outraged about trivia? If this were a new poster, I would assume this was trolling, the outrage is so bizarrely disproportionate to the sums involved. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/79 "2016-11-27T04:42:46Z")
OK, so _if_ someone forgets or neglects to bring their own bag, and _if_ they’re getting more items than they can easily carry without a bag, and _if_ they’re not using food stamps, then they have to pay a fee equivalent to 36 seconds of labor? And this is what you’re getting so upset about? Man, I wish that were the worst problem I had to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112/80 "2016-11-27T04:43:54Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Just read the thread a few more times and you’ll get it eventually! There’s no shame in being slow. You’re the most shameless one in this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-stupid-fucking-bag-ban-in-california/773112.md?page=5)