# This Usage Needs Explained! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 9, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825 "2008-09-09T19:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/1 "2008-09-09T19:03:58Z")
I’ve over the past few months run into a fascinating bit of colloquial usage I had never noticed before. I’m curious about the usage and whether it’s common, and any linguists/dialecticians who want to comment about it. The usage is the appending of a “naked” past participle to a verb, in a circumstance where typically i would expect to see either a gerund in -ing or “to be” plus the past participle. To set up a hypothetical example, let’s construct an adage: “Do whatever needs \_\_\_”. Standard usage, at lest in upstate New York where I spent most of my life and here in the Upper South, would follow that with “…doing” or, slightly more commonly, “…to be done”: “Do whatever needs doing” or “Do whatever needs to be done.” What I’m seeing, and had not encountered before, is the usage: “Do whatever needs done” and similar constructions: “This transformer needs fixed.” A lot of those using this variant seem to be from he Midwest. Is it common? Coincidence I’ve never run into it before 2008? Geographic spread for it? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/2 "2008-09-09T19:07:08Z")
It’s pretty common in Western Pennsylvania, particularly Pittsburgh. It may seep into parts of Ohio a bit, but pretty much everyone I know who uses that usage is either from Pittsburgh or affecting a Pittsburgh dialect. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/3 "2008-09-09T19:09:46Z")
It’s Pittsburghese, but I noticed it’s spreading in recent years. It’s increasingly common usage in the far eastern suburbs of Cleveland (Lake and Geauga counties). I’ve seen the usage in message board posts, when the poster is known not to be in or from the Pittsburgh area. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/4 "2008-09-09T19:11:14Z")
When I first heard it, I had to wonder if the speaker was dabbling in [E-Prime](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-prime), but nope, she was from Pennsylvania. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/5 "2008-09-09T19:11:18Z")
I call it a yokelism… purposefully using poor grammar; often spoken with a hayseed, mock-southern accent. I don’t think I have ever heard anyone use a phrase like that without a heavy dose of irony. ---
**Author:** ![Cub\_Mistress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@Cub\_Mistress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cub_Mistress)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/6 "2008-09-09T19:11:23Z")
I knew what this was going to be about before I opened the thread. This particular quirk comes up frequently. Maybe we need a sticky for it?😉 I’ve heard it from people from Ohio. It just sounds so wrong to my ears! ---
**Author:** ![Solfy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Solfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Solfy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/7 "2008-09-09T19:27:59Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I call it a yokelism… purposefully using poor grammar; often spoken with a hayseed, mock-southern accent. > > I don’t think I have ever heard anyone use a phrase like that without a heavy dose of irony. You can call me a yokel then. I grew up outside of Pittsburgh. I managed to become college educated without ever learning that such a construct was incorrect. (that may be more of a comment on the quality of my education, in Ohio no less) A bemused coworker (also in Pittsburgh, but not from here) pointed it out to me. When you grow up hearing things like “my car needs washed” it’s not at all jarring. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/8 "2008-09-09T19:34:13Z")
> [@Solfy](#): > > You can call me a yokel then.\ Yokel! Actually, I had never heard anyone use this construction outside of what I mentioned. I guess my ignorance needed fought.😕 ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/9 "2008-09-09T19:37:34Z")
I have heard it all my life here in Ohio. It’s incorrect, but just a regionalism. I don’t use it, but it doesn’t bother me. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/10 "2008-09-09T19:38:52Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > A lot of those using this variant seem to be from he Midwest. Is it common? Coincidence I’ve never run into it before 2008? Geographic spread for it? Never heard it in Milwaukee. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/11 "2008-09-09T19:40:20Z")
I hear it all the time in Oklahoma and always have. It may tend to be more commonly used in the rural and working class dialects, but certainly isn’t confined to those. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/12 "2008-09-09T19:41:28Z")
It’s not limited to “needs” - you hear the same usage with “wants”, as in “the dog wants out”. ---
**Author:** ![EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilHamsterOnCrack)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/13 "2008-09-09T19:42:17Z")
First post from the South (Georgia, to be specific) saying I hear it all the time, and even use it. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/14 "2008-09-09T19:42:28Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I call it a yokelism… purposefully using poor grammar; often spoken with a hayseed, mock-southern accent. No, everyone else is correct. It’s a regional feature of Pittsburgh and the surrounding area ([third bullet point](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_English#Grammar)), as well as possibly elsewhere. It’s not “poor grammar”; just a non-standard dialect feature. ---
**Author:** ![Daerlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Daerlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daerlyn)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/15 "2008-09-09T19:44:43Z")
I’ve started doing this in text messages - I still can’t bring myself to use things like ‘u’ for ‘you’ and number substitution for words, but I will send messages like ‘text me when you need picked up’ and similar phrases. I didn’t realise it was common in any verbal dialects. I’m in southern Ontario, for demographic purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/16 "2008-09-09T19:46:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not limited to “needs” - you hear the same usage with “wants”, as in “the dog wants out”. That’s not actually the same usage, is it? “The car needs washed” ends in \, but “the dog wants out” ends in an adjective (or something else non-verbal). I say “the dog wants out” here in Southern Ontario, but I never heard of the “needs washed” usage until I started reading the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/17 "2008-09-09T20:28:53Z")
I’m from the Cleveland/Akron area (right between both, actually) and I had no idea that was weird or awkward or…_wrong_ usage. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/18 "2008-09-09T20:30:51Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > I’m from the Cleveland/Akron area (right between both, actually) and I had no idea that was weird or awkward or…_wrong_ usage. It’s not _wrong_. Don’t put up with anyone telling you it is. It’s merely nonstandard. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/19 "2008-09-09T20:48:13Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > That’s not actually the same usage, is it? “The car needs washed” ends in \, but “the dog wants out” ends in an adjective (or something else non-verbal). > > I say “the dog wants out” here in Southern Ontario, but I never heard of the “needs washed” usage until I started reading the SDMB. That example I gave is different, but still “wrong” (I put that in quotes because someone is bound to call me an evil prescriptivist otherwise)… But the same thing applies; I’ve heard people say “the dog wants fed” or whatever as often as I’ve heard the “needs” thing. Either way, the wrong part of speech follows. In both cases, it should be a noun (“RNATB needs hookers and blow”) or a passive infinitive (“RNATB needs to be blown”). That said, in British English, you can say “the car needs wash_ing_” or “the carpet needs hoover_ing_ (vacuuming)”. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/20 "2008-09-09T20:52:38Z")
Interesting how you acknowledge, via discussion of British English, that usage does legitimately differ from region to region, yet still seem to only begrudgingly grant this same courtesy to the construct in question… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825.md?page=2)