# This Usage Needs Explained! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 9, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825 "2008-09-09T19:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/21 "2008-09-09T20:54:14Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > That’s not actually the same usage, is it? “The car needs washed” ends in \, but “the dog wants out” ends in an adjective (or something else non-verbal). > > I say “the dog wants out” here in Southern Ontario, but I never heard of the “needs washed” usage until I started reading the SDMB. I agree - a closer equivalent would be something like (the equally jarring) “the dog wants _gone_”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/22 "2008-09-09T20:56:58Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Interesting how you acknowledge, via discussion of British English, that usage does legitimately differ from region to region, yet still seem to only begrudgingly grant this same courtesy to the construct in question… I am more inclined to grant that courtesy to a construction which has been around for five hundred years than one that’s been around since episode 2 of the _Andy Griffith Show_… but your point is well taken. It isn’t wrong. It’s just wrongish. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/23 "2008-09-09T20:59:41Z")
> [@Solfy](#): > > When you grow up hearing things like “my car needs washed” it’s not at all jarring. That really should be “needs worshed”. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/24 "2008-09-09T21:00:18Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Interesting how you acknowledge, via discussion of British English, that usage does legitimately differ from region to region, yet still seem to only begrudgingly grant this same courtesy to the construct in question… It is WRONG, in that it misuses the speech parts. It is WRONG in that it is incorrect English grammar. It is, however WRONG it may be, standard usage in many areas, particularly rural areas, though the Pittsburgh usage shows it’s not confined totally to such settings. The fact that an incorrect usage nevertheless is standard doesn’t make it not WRONG, it just makes it common. Of course, the above is true only if you believe that there should be a common grammar for usage of the language throughout America. If you don’t think that is necessary, then NOTHING anyone says is “wrong” unless it fails to communicate accurately the idea intended. For what it is worth, I know of people who used this construction in the Sacramento, California area back in the mid-80s. My ex-wife used to come home pulling out her hair (she managed a fast food restaurant) at the usage among a number of her employees of the phrase, “floor needs mopped.” Note the lack of a definite article going with the lack of the words “to be.” ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/25 "2008-09-09T21:00:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That said, in British English, you can say “the car needs wash_ing_” or “the carpet needs hoover_ing_ (vacuuming)”. That construction is, AFAIK, perfectly grammatical in standard American English as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/26 "2008-09-09T21:06:38Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It’s pretty common in Western Pennsylvania, particularly Pittsburgh. It may seep into parts of Ohio a bit, but pretty much everyone I know who uses that usage is either from Pittsburgh or affecting a Pittsburgh dialect. I grew up in Harrisburg (not all that near Pittsburgh, in other words) and used that type of phrasing. Then again, my mother went to college in western Pennsylvania, so perhaps that’s where she picked it up. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/27 "2008-09-09T21:09:35Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > That really should be “needs worshed”. They don’t entirely overlap. I grew up in NW PA, and still find myself using the “needs” construct without “to be” on occasion, but “warshed” was a different part of the state. I only heard it from people who had grown up in the southern parts of the state, down in coal country. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/28 "2008-09-09T21:31:41Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > It is WRONG, in that it misuses the speech parts. It is WRONG in that it is incorrect English grammar. .. In the [link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_English#Grammar) provided by **Indistinguishable** , a connection is made with Scots-Irish immigrants who came to America somewhat before episode 2 of _the Andy Griffith Show_. I know that [Yiddish syntax](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1997/yiddish-shmiddish-why-do-we-repeat-a-word-but-start-it-with-shm) has had an effect on the way American English is used, but I have to wonder if something similar is going on with this construction. Are we talking about an ingrained “incorrect” usage? (Immigrants used the English language incorrectly and that became common?) Or is it similar to the process described in the linked column where:“Thoughts were rearranged to meet traditional Yiddish syntax”? Methinks tis the former, but, when everyone else is right, what can I be but wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/29 "2008-09-09T21:36:46Z")
So far as I can tell, it’s common the the non-urban areas of my native southern Ohio, and throughout the Appalachian region. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I am more inclined to grant that courtesy to a construction which has been around for five hundred years than one that’s been around since episode 2 of the _Andy Griffith Show_… but your point is well taken. My suspicion is that this usage came from some regional British dialect, so it’s just as old as anything else you’ve got there. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/30 "2008-09-09T21:46:43Z")
Until the SDMB, I never knew it was wrong. I only found out a few months ago. Everyone drops “to be” here, although I can’t pinpoint why “The dog wants gone” is jarring even to my ears. While “to be”'s inclusion wouldn’t sound wierd in most instances, I can think of a million where it would. Do you all really find fault with “The movie needs filmed.” or “I want out of here!”? I find it bizarre to expect a “to be” in there. FTR, young generations don’t do the extra-r stuff that our grandparents do. I haven’t heard “warsh” from anyone under the age of 60. ---
**Author:** ![essell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/34f0e0/32.png) [@essell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/essell)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/31 "2008-09-09T21:52:55Z")
To my ear, this kind of usage sounds very … Lol-Cat-ish. Coincidence or Correlation ? ---
**Author:** ![picker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/picker/32/13969_2.png) [@picker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/32 "2008-09-09T22:04:08Z")
It’s a very common phrase here in Southern Wisconsin, albeit heard more often from those raised up north and in central WI, which is a bit more rural. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/33 "2008-09-09T22:16:32Z")
Raised in California. Working class neighborhood. I never knew the construction was wrong until my best friend in high school started having fits about it. Never did see the point in getting worked up over it. It’s obviously an deletion of the words ‘to be’ and English had deleted a lot of things. [I order you to] Pick up that sweater. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/34 "2008-09-09T22:24:32Z")
I have a vague memory (no cite) that the dropping of “to be” is faily common in Pennsylvania Dutch and other dialects that draw from old German – as in “the car needs wash(ed).” That would also explain the Yiddish usage. Perhaps someone with a better background in linguistics can explain it better. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/35 "2008-09-09T22:32:56Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > It is WRONG, in that it misuses the speech parts. It is WRONG in that it is incorrect English grammar. It is, however WRONG it may be, standard usage in many areas, particularly rural areas, though the Pittsburgh usage shows it’s not confined totally to such settings. The fact that an incorrect usage nevertheless is standard doesn’t make it not WRONG, it just makes it common. Um, Cite? Oh, right, you can’t possibly have one, since your position is absurd… ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/36 "2008-09-09T22:36:25Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Of course, the above is true only if you believe that there should be a common grammar for usage of the language throughout America. If you don’t think that is necessary, then NOTHING anyone says is “wrong” unless it fails to communicate accurately the idea intended. That’s not quite true. Even non-standard dialects follow their own syntax and grammar. So, yes, there can be ungrammatical or otherwise “incorrect” constructions in non-standard dialects. For example, I believe using “y’all” as a singular (which some people do to affect a type of Southern accent) second person would be considered “incorrect” by many speakers of that dialect. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/37 "2008-09-09T22:39:26Z")
Missouri-born, and I use it. I didn’t learn it was non-standard until I went to college. > [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > It is WRONG, in that it misuses the speech parts. It is WRONG in that it is incorrect English grammar. It is, however WRONG it may be, standard usage in many areas, particularly rural areas, though the Pittsburgh usage shows it’s not confined totally to such settings. The fact that an incorrect usage nevertheless is standard doesn’t make it not WRONG, it just makes it common. You have a silly definition of “WRONG”. Learning the [correctness conditions](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001843.html) of a language as it’s used across a broad area is how linguists go about figuring out what’s standard. If the usage is standard, then it is by definition correct for the entire area that the standard dialect represents. In other words, you’ve been incorrectly applying the label and your definition of standard is WRONG, at least in this context. This is also causing you to mistake regional dialect and standard language: A linguistic standard isn’t generally supposed to represent just one region, like Pittsburgh, because regional variations are considered _dialectical_, not standard. Standard American English is used to refer to the language as it’s used across the whole country. “Needs V-ed” doesn’t make the cut. It’s Midwestern, not standard, and that’s true even in Pittsburgh. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/38 "2008-09-09T22:50:15Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Raised in California. Working class neighborhood. I never knew the construction was wrong until my best friend in high school started having fits about it. Never did see the point in getting worked up over it. It’s obviously an deletion of the words ‘to be’ and English had deleted a lot of things. > > [I order you to] Pick up that sweater. The “I order you” part is not an essential part of that sentence; imperatives don’t need subjects. There’s no deletion there. > [@](#): > > Oh, right, you can’t possibly have one, since your position is absurd… No it isn’t. Common sense dictates that we have some sort of consistency in the language, and he quite clearly specified that it’s wrong _if you believe the rules of the English language should be consistent throughout America._ ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/39 "2008-09-09T22:53:25Z")
> [@Kendall Jackson](#): > > [correctness conditions](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001843.html) I always like the Language Log, but this post is really superb. Thanks for the link. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825/40 "2008-09-09T22:58:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [snip] he quite clearly specified that it’s wrong _if you believe the rules of the English language should be consistent throughout America._ Yes, the level and type of “consistency” his position is conditioned on is absurd. I might as well claim “X is true, if you believe the sun should go West to East.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-usage-needs-explained/462825.md?page=3)