# "This vehicle does not turn right on red" -- why not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 18, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968 "2019-10-18T20:00:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/21 "2019-10-19T17:49:31Z")
> [@Die\_Capacitrix](#): > > Is the U.S. the only country that allows, with some exceptions, right on red? _Left turn_ on red (after first stopping) is allowed where I live. ---
**Author:** ![Dickerman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Dickerman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dickerman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/22 "2019-10-19T17:51:08Z")
And there’s things like this, from [https://www.euroresidentes.com/euroresiuk/travel-spain/driving-in-spain.htm:](https://www.euroresidentes.com/euroresiuk/travel-spain/driving-in-spain.htm:) > [@](#): > > Zebra Crossings. Spanish drivers do not usually stop at zebra crossings unless they are > accompanied by traffic lights. Take care when approaching one in your car if there are cars behind your vehicle, because if you do what you are supposed to do - i.e. slow down and stop to allow pedestrians to cross - you are liable to be hit from behind or to have an irate driver shout and blow his horn at you. If you are a pedestrian waiting to cross, never ever start crossing until you are sure that vehicles on both lanes (if there is more than one) have stopped for you to cross. Again, don’t know if that’s true, but it would be unusual in any place I’ve driven in the US/Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/23 "2019-10-19T18:00:33Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You must not live in Beijing. There is no weaving. There is just barrelling through and if you’re a pedestrian, you’d better be quick or you’ll be dead. Shanghai, and “weaving” was a kind way of putting it. I mean: drivers turning right basically don’t slow down at all, and only avoid pedestrians insofar as deciding in the last second they’d rather not have to clean old lady intestines off their windscreen. Or that’s how it used to be. Like I say, with the recent rule change, and bearing in mind there are cameras at all major intersections, there has been a noticeable change in driver behaviour. (I still see dozens of near-misses every single day on Chinese roads, just not so many in the right-on-red situation) Did the rule change in Beijing too? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/24 "2019-10-19T18:01:13Z")
> [@Dickerman](#): > > A few years ago some friends from Spain travelled to Seattle for a business trip. Their ultimate destination was Portland and I offered to drive them down so we could catch up. As we drove around downtown Portland they were a bit surprised that the drivers (including me) were so courteous towards pedestrians. It was nothing out of the ordinary in my experience, but according to them drivers in Madrid were much less concerned with pedestrian safety. Don’t know if it’s true though. Oregon relatively recently passed a law about how much buffer drivers turning across crosswalks have to give pedestrians. If the ped is moving towards the lane the car will be using, the driver must give them a full lane width of buffer; if moving away from the car, only half a lane width. The newspapers (and I expect other news media) made it sound more complicated than that, so perhaps that’s why I see lots of Oregon drivers stop if a ped is anywhere in the crosswalk. Or that could be what Oregon law used to say, I have no idea what that was. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/25 "2019-10-19T21:58:04Z")
I remember “left on red” being trialled in Sydney (there was one on the street my uncle and aunt lived on). That was at least twenty years ago. I see no sign of it being adopted all round the country, and the sign at the end of the street in question that said this was allowed, seems to have disappeared. So the Australian vote seems to be a solid “meh” ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/26 "2019-10-19T22:17:29Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Actually, in California, it’s not the case that the pedestrian always has the right of way. I got ticketed for causing an accident while jaywalking (funny thing was my buddy was the one driving the pickup that hit me). Luckily, it wasn’t that serious an accident. Was that in L.A.? The City of Los Angeles has an aggressive ticketing enforcement of jaywalking laws, whereas San Francisco not so much, and San Diego hardly at all. Other cities vary. The fact is that much of California’s legal code regarding vehicles and pedestrians includes subjective phrasing akin to “…when safe to do so.”\* Unless some local code indicates a restriction at a certain place, (with signs so indicating), you can walk across the street in the middle of the block at any point where at least one of the two immediate intersections in either direction doesn’t have a traffic light . . . when safe to do so. So you can’t just walk across the street in the middle of oncoming traffic, (even if it is your buddy driving), but the phrases like “so near as to constitute an immediate hazard” arguably leave a lot up to subjective determination. On the flip side, I believe the “when safe to do so” type language applies to making right turns at intersections with pedestrians, which is where the “pedestrian always has the right of way” cliche comes from in California. That is, you can only make the right turn if there aren’t any pedestrians crossing–or who look like they are about to cross. So much of the state code regarding pedestrians can come down to the subjective evaluation of a cop. One strictly objective definition of jaywalking, however, for which the L.A. cops write a lot of tickets, is when–at an intersection with a traffic light–a pedestrian’s foot alights upon the street after the “Don’t Walk” sign starts to flash, and the person continues to cross. Sometimes they just station a couple of cops at a busy intersection in a place like Pico-Union, with tons of pedestrians, and write out tickets all day. \*The actual language has phrases like “so near as to constitute an immediate hazard,” “no pedestrian may unnecessarily stop traffic,” and “exercise all due care” etc. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/27 "2019-10-19T22:44:24Z")
> [@Die\_Capacitrix](#): > > Is the U.S. the only country that allows, with some exceptions, right on red? Already ninja’d on this, but no. It’s legal in most if not all Canadian provinces, in addition to those other countries mentioned. Municipalities can make their own exceptions. IIRC, it isn’t legal in the city of Montreal proper. The technical reason for this is that Montreal drivers are insane, with a typically Gallic casual attitude to traffic laws. If they were allowed to turn right on red, they would do so without stopping or looking, and would probably fail to stop for any red lights whatsoever. I can just see them weaving slightly to the right when going straight through as a sort of symbolic gesture to the right-turn law. With all respect to a city I deeply love, the drivers there are lunatics. 😉 I believe that right turns on red are also prohibited in NYC, probably for similar reasons. > [@Die\_Capacitrix](#): > > The driver has no obligation to turn right on red. Depends on the traffic laws in the relevant jurisdiction. There is a rarely used provision of the Highway Traffic Act here called something like “Failure to proceed” which you can be charged with if, say, the light turns green and you sit there like a bump on a log. I imagine that charge can be brought if you hold up traffic by failing to proceed on a right turn against a red light if the way is clear. It’s a very minor charge that carries no demerit points but it does exist. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/28 "2019-10-19T23:16:38Z")
When I was a telephone installer we were not supposed to turn right on red in our official trucks. Many left turns were also prohibited. There had to be a left-turn lane, had to be a left-turn arrow, and had to be at an intersection, for instance, not into a driveway in the middle of the block–unless there was no other way. We could only turn left coming out of an alley if we were turning onto a one-way street (i.e., no other way). However, we did not have stickers on our trucks saying so. Sitting at a red light with the turn signal on and not turning was considered enough of a clue and if people honked, well, people will honk. The thing is, in areas with lots of pedestrians it can actually be better to turn right on red; you can sit there the whole light, waiting for the peds to clear out. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/29 "2019-10-19T23:44:50Z")
IIRC at least in Michigan, turning right on red is allowed unless signage explicitly prohibits it (i.e. there’s a “NO TURN ON RED” sign.) You are, however, required to come to a complete stop first, verify crosswalks and cross traffic is clear, then make your turn. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/30 "2019-10-20T03:07:19Z")
I remember when right turn on red (after stop) was introduced in Indiana and then Georgia. One thing I saw back then but don’t now were “No Turn On Red” signs at certain intersections with green arrow left turn lights. It seemed to make sense as a non-local driver may not realize the green arrow was there for oncoming traffic and might get hit by a left turner he wasn’t expecting. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/31 "2019-10-20T06:38:58Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Already ninja’d on this, but no. It’s legal in most if not all Canadian provinces, in addition to those other countries mentioned. Municipalities can make their own exceptions. IIRC, it isn’t legal in the city of Montreal proper. > [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > The thing is, in areas with lots of pedestrians it can actually be better to turn right on red; you can sit there the whole light, waiting for the peds to clear out. These two posts in a row remind me of my time in downtown Montreal. Not turning right on red backed up traffic considerably. During the entire green light pedestrians were crossing the streets, so no chance to go during green either. Each light cycle let would let one or two cars turn right, depending on if the front car was quick enough to beat the pedestrians, and how willing the next few cars were to run the red. I noticed that cross traffic had more gaps than the pedestrians, so, assuming the drivers could handle it sanely, right on red would have greatly improved traffic flow. The other thing that would have fixed it would have been a period with a green light, but no walk signal, assuming the pedestrians would behave. ---
**Author:** ![mandala](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mandala/32/95_2.png) [@mandala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandala)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/32 "2019-10-20T10:54:22Z")
At least countries have rules around this issue - whether drivers follow them is a different matter. In most parts of India traffic lights are strictly for decoration purposes. If traffic is extremely heavy drivers may, at their discretion, obey them, just to avoid getting hit by another vehicle. Nobody cares for pedestrians, but because of the sheer number of people legging it - some close to the middle of the thoroughfare for want of sidewalks - drivers often give them the courtesy of a honk. If you ignore the well-intentioned honk, you are on your own. Crossing the street is fraught with peril; your success largely depends on your reflexes, experience, and luck. BTW, interestingly for Western folks, honking in India is not considered rude, it is an essential element of street communication. I have lost count of how many times I escaped injury by means of a well-timed honk from a speeding vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/33 "2019-10-20T14:42:22Z")
> [@Dickerman](#): > > A few years ago some friends from Spain travelled to Seattle for a business trip. Their ultimate destination was Portland and I offered to drive them down so we could catch up. As we drove around downtown Portland they were a bit surprised that the drivers (including me) were so courteous towards pedestrians. It was nothing out of the ordinary in my experience, but according to them drivers in Madrid were much less concerned with pedestrian safety. Don’t know if it’s true though. I haven’t been to the NW, but I sometimes joke that we create “Madrid drivers” by taking the worst drivers from the rest of Spain and dumping them there. So far, nobody from Madrid has been able to say I wasn’t right. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/34 "2019-10-20T17:44:50Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I haven’t been to the NW, The main problem with NW drivers is that they’re too courteous. They keep waving bicyclists through 4-way stop intersections when they should be taking their right-of-way. And then they turn around and complain about how cyclists are always blowing through stop signs and red lights. People don’t realize how the first behavior leads to the second. At any rate, in Oregon, we now have the Idaho stop law. That is, bicyclists can treat stop signs as if they were yield signs. Of course this is just legalizing what pretty much all cyclists were already doing, so it really means that cops have one less way of harrassing bicyclists. > [@](#): > > but I sometimes joke that we create “Madrid drivers” by taking the worst drivers from the rest of Spain and dumping them there. So far, nobody from Madrid has been able to say I wasn’t right. Sounds similar to a Dave Barry joke about Miami drivers: Miami drivers all follow the law when driving, but it’s the law of wherever they came from. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/35 "2019-10-20T20:26:16Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > In California the pedestrian _always_ has the right of way. Start to cross anywhere, even without crossing marks, and traffic will come to a halt. LOL. I lived in San Diego for over ten years, and this is hilariously incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/36 "2019-10-20T20:32:54Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > LOL. > > I lived in San Diego for over ten years, and this is hilariously incorrect. Same “rule” here in Portland, but I have _never_ seen it enforced. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/37 "2019-10-22T00:48:13Z")
> [@Die\_Capacitrix](#): > > And the people honking at the person who does not want to turn red are being rude. So maybe the company is trying to help their drivers by putting such a decal, in addition to making the rule. If they have a sign and it’s policy, then it’s forgivable. However, barring that circumstance, it’s _not_ rude to honk at assholes that won’t turn on red. I don’t mean situations where I have to respect their judgment; I mean situations where there’s literally no other traffic. Sure, they’re not _obligated_ by law to turn, but there are scores of other situations where social requirements outweigh legal requirements. > [@Mijin](#): > > Here in China, right on red is allowed. > > However, one effect is that drivers turning right barely slow down, since it doesn’t matter whether their light is green or red. And on a green light they may weave around, at speed, pedestrians trying to cross the perpendicular street. Usually, though, laws require you to stop on red before proceeding. Despite having a Chinese license, I paid a translator to take my test for me, so I’m not aware of the actual law. I would assume that you have to stop before proceeding, but I also assume that “right of way” is a thing, when it clearly is not. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/38 "2019-10-22T09:11:21Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Usually, though, laws require you to stop on red before proceeding. Despite having a Chinese license, I paid a translator to take my test for me, so I’m not aware of the actual law. I would assume that you have to stop before proceeding, but I also assume that “right of way” is a thing, when it clearly is not. No right turn on red can’t be the rule here in Shanghai – drivers turning right almost always go through directly. There are one or two roads where drivers will always queue though. I have not driven in China, so I have never taken notice of what markings are indicating to the drivers that they cannot turn right on red on those junctions. But it’s a small minority of junctions. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/39 "2019-10-22T14:47:36Z")
Thanks to the absurd Michigan left turn, if a visitor comes to any of the populated areas here, they better be prepared to take an expiditious one-way to one-way left on red as well, or endure a severe honking. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968/40 "2019-10-22T14:58:07Z")
UPS no longer permits their drivers to make left hand turns…period. Their routes are laid out so that they only can make right hand turns. They have reduced the number of accidents their drivers are involved with significantly with this simple change in their routing policy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-vehicle-does-not-turn-right-on-red-why-not/841968.md?page=3)