# This Wedks's awful Mass Murder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 4, 2019, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157 "2019-08-04T04:52:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/101 "2019-08-06T19:09:51Z")
> [@Taesahnim](#): > > \*\*This Wedks’s awful Mass Murder > \*\* > I’m assuming you are referring to the 59 people shot in Chicago, 7 of whom died, correct? > [59 shot, 7 fatally in Chicago weekend shootings - ABC7 Chicago](https://abc7chicago.com/59-shot-7-fatally-in-chicago-weekend-shootings/5443785/) I’m guessing you’ve never been to Chicago? Why don’t you shut up about my city. I’m so sick of people bringing up Chicago as if that somehow means mass shootings are not a problem. As of July 1st Chicago shootings are at a 4 year low for the 1st 6 months of the year. And overall crime rates are down 9% from last year. Find another city to shit on please. [https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/7/1/20676793/chicago-shootings-four-year-low-through-first-half-of-2019-police-crime-stats](https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/7/1/20676793/chicago-shootings-four-year-low-through-first-half-of-2019-police-crime-stats) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/102 "2019-08-06T19:23:14Z")
This attempt to change the topic is as weak as saying that 9/11 wasn’t a big deal compared to the many thousands of people killed in US aviation disasters since the invention of commercial flight. Apples and oranges. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/103 "2019-08-06T19:26:15Z")
There are many kinds of gun violence: domestic violence, gang shootouts, liquor store holdups, suicide, accidents, mass shootings of random strangers. All of them tragic; all of them would benefit from tighter gun laws. The last of those, though, is what grabs the national psyche, because of its random and capricious nature. Since I don’t have a gun in my house and I’m not a gang member or drug dealer, the chances of me dying from a firearm are virtually nil…except that I can’t be sure I won’t be shot in a movie theater by some random psycho. However, we see a lot of intentional whatabouttism to deflect the discussion away from gun controls and white nationalism. Look at any online article and see how many “what about the 50 people killed in Chicago?” comments there are, in a deliberate attempt to muddy the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/104 "2019-08-06T19:26:36Z")
> [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](#): > > So, it’s: > > 1. Hold a Rally. (Don’t pay for it of course) > > 2. Make inflammatory ‘Fire in a Burning Theater’ statements about shooting people. > > 3. Spread Youtube video clips of those statements repeatedly to the ‘faithful’. > > 4. Wait until one Bubba is stupid enough and well armed enough to commit Mass Murder there. > > 5. Smirk like a scummy rotten orange and wave from Air Farce One. The technical term from Trump’s tactic is _[stochastic terrorism](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/stochastic-terrorism)_: **stochastic terrorism** _(noun)_ the public demonization of a person or group resulting in the incitement of a violent act, which is statistically probable but whose specifics cannot be predicted. _The lone-wolf attack was apparently influenced by the rhetoric of stochastic terrorism._ ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/105 "2019-08-06T19:35:49Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Do you handwave like that because it wafts the stink of your own ass closer to your nose so you can enjoy it properly? You accusing me of handwaving is rich. :rolleyes: All you have to offer is “just so “ stories about the white male patriarchy, unmoored from data. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/106 "2019-08-06T19:37:49Z")
You do know that just because you’ve not bothered to educate yourself does not indicate a lack of available information on the subject, right? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/107 "2019-08-06T19:38:46Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You accusing me of handwaving is rich. :rolleyes: All you have to offer is “just so “ stories about the white male patriarchy, unmoored from data. White men being in charge of most things, far beyond their representation, doesn’t count as data to **Slacker** , apparently. Perhaps this is related to his belief in the inherent genetic intellectual superiority of northern Europeans (a group for which he just so happens to be a member)? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/108 "2019-08-06T20:20:27Z")
That you find it more _interesting_ and newsworthy when white men engage in shootings with four or more casualties does not change the fact that black men are ten times as likely to engage in them relative to their proportion of the population. (That doesn’t change the fact that we currently have a bigoted white man as president who seems bent on inciting a race war, and the one time we had a black man as president, he did anything but.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/109 "2019-08-06T20:22:58Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That you find it more _interesting_ and newsworthy when white men engage in shootings with four or more casualties does not change the fact that black men are ten times as likely to engage in them relative to their proportion of the population. > > (That doesn’t change the fact that we currently have a bigoted white man as president who seems bent on inciting a race war, and the one time we had a black man as president, he did anything but.) I’ve said nothing about what I find interesting or news worthy. Stormfront would probably be preferable to you if you just want to find ways to characterize statistics in a way that reflects as poorly on black people as possible. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/110 "2019-08-06T20:41:03Z")
I think the “good guy with a gun” myth should be officially dead now. Parkland (MSD High School) had an armed security guard, who was utterly useless. El Paso was in a gun-loving state with open carry laws, filled with potential “good guys” who, according to the fantasy, would have stopped the shooter. Nada. Dayton: fortunately, armed police were in the vicinity and took out the shooter in **24 seconds**. They could not have responded any quicker – but not quick enough for the 9 people killed. More guns is not the answer. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/111 "2019-08-06T20:42:22Z")
I repeat, it doesn’t make a fuck’s worth of difference what color the man is–men are responsible for most of the violence, shootings, beatings, crimes and general assholishness. Half of all female homicide victims are killed by their male partners. MEN are the problem. White men, black men, brown men, doesn’t make much difference, MEN are the violent ones who need to knock that shit off or be made to knock it off. I mean, if we simply made it illegal for men to have or use firearms the problem would be solved in fairly short order. We wouldn’t have cops or armies but at this point I’m thinking it’s a pretty worthy experiment. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/112 "2019-08-06T21:07:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve said nothing about what I find interesting or news worthy. ORLY? :dubious: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shooting lots of people is not unique, or particularly common, for any particular race or other group, aside from young-ish men (if I understand the statistics properly). Purposefully shooting lots of strangers in a public place, due to rage at society or a hateful ideology, is mostly (but not uniquely) a phenomenon with young-ish white men, AFAIUI. And that’s the kind of shooting that gets the most attention, both because it’s relatively new in terms of occurring frequently, and less intuitive to understand than crime/turf/gang-based shootings. If that isn’t clear enough, I am sure I can prove my point even better with citations from the other thread. Just say the word. (Also, you continue to insist that those shootings are crime/turf/gang-based, when the article clearly said a large number of them were not.) > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Stormfront would probably be preferable to you if you just want to find ways to characterize statistics in a way that reflects as poorly on black people as possible. Izzat right? You think my excoriation of Trump and his tweets, or my lionization of Barack Obama and Kamala Harris, would be a good fit there? :rolleyes: It’s interesting that your definition of “how not to be a Nazi” includes suppression of factual data. This is clearly what De Blasio thought, and what that black activist was calling out, but then as I say you can get hit from the other side by being accused of ignoring a big problem among the black community. It really shows why it’s important to just be honest about the data, and let the chips fall where they may. ETA: SmartAleq, I agreed with you about men—I suspect testosterone is a huge factor here—but then you immediately came back with how it’s nothing fundamentally about men but just about white male patriarchy. You are all over the map. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/113 "2019-08-06T21:32:02Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ORLY? :dubious: > > If that isn’t clear enough, I am sure I can prove my point even better with citations from the other thread. Just say the word. I didn’t say _I_ think it’s necessarily more newsworthy, I said it’s seen as more newsworthy. That’s not about me, that’s about society. I’m trying to explain why society treats these other shootings in a different way. > [@](#): > > (Also, you continue to insist that those shootings are crime/turf/gang-based, when the article clearly said a large number of them were not.) Same basket – shooting people they know because of personal grievance, often related to crime/turf/gangs/etc. Nothing new there, nothing “out of the ordinary” in terms of violence. > [@](#): > > Izzat right? You think my excoriation of Trump and his tweets, or my lionization of Barack Obama and Kamala Harris, would be a good fit there? :rolleyes: That part wouldn’t, but your northern-European supremacist notions of intrinsically higher intelligence, and inferior black intelligence, would be more than welcome. You might be a nice guy, but you’re a white supremacist nice guy, by your posts. A white supremacists who wants to help people you see as inferior, rather than harm them… but still a white supremacist. The patriarchal, colonialist flavor of white supremacist – you certainly would have been welcome in 19th century British-controlled India or parts of Africa. > [@](#): > > It’s interesting that your definition of “how not to be a Nazi” includes suppression of factual data. This is clearly what De Blasio thought, and what that black activist was calling out, but then as I say you can get hit from the other side by being accused of ignoring a big problem among the black community. It really shows why it’s important to just be honest about the data, and let the chips fall where they may. I am being honest about the data – I’m just not using it in a way aimed at upholding and supporting white supremacist notions. Your white supremacy poisons everything. Like most white supremacists, you’re entirely blind to it. It’s one of the ways bigotry is so destructive – it can turn otherwise decent people into those capable of supporting and spreading monstrous notions. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/114 "2019-08-06T21:39:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That part wouldn’t, but your northern-European supremacist notions of intrinsically higher intelligence, and inferior black intelligence, would be more than welcome. You might be a nice guy, but you’re a white supremacist nice guy, by your posts. A white supremacists who wants to help people you see as inferior, rather than harm them… but still a white supremacist. Which is completely at odds with a place like Stormfront. So that was just a lazy and bogus potshot. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The patriarchal, colonialist flavor of white supremacist – you certainly would have been welcome in 19th century British-controlled India or parts of Africa. Yes, like the part where I was born. I have already been clear that I think those sorts of colonialists have been unfairly demonized. The places they colonized would have been better off to follow the path of somewhere like Canada rather than the path of Haiti. They were so eager for self rule they threw the baby out with the bathwater. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/115 "2019-08-06T21:42:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Same basket – shooting people they know because of personal grievance, often related to crime/turf/gangs/etc. Nothing new there, nothing “out of the ordinary” in terms of violence. I was reading an article on Snopes earlier today, discussing the statistics on mass shootings and how different groups have different ways to define them. > **[Did the U.S. Have 251 Mass Shootings in the First 216 Days of 2019?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/251-mass-shootings-in-us/)** > > The number of mass shootings varies greatly depending on how such shootings are defined. Relevant to your comment, Snopes reported that when Mother Jones began compiling statistics they specifically excluded “incidents that may stem from crimes, such as armed robbery or gang violence”. By contrast, when ABC News compiles their own statistics, they did not exclude such crimes. So it’s not just in your mind that there is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/116 "2019-08-06T21:49:33Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > I think that trying to make the divide by race is a red herring–what really needs addressed is that, basically, ALL mass shootings are done by men. Women just don’t do this. And it’s disingenuous to try to blame mental illness because that’s not it either–women have, statistically, less access to mental health care and of all women black women have the very least and yet they do NOT commit mass shootings. Men are the problem. Let’s start there. > [@SmartAleq](#): > > It’s not a matter of gender essentialism, it’s an artifact of a patriarchal society that decrees that white men are the ne plus ultra of humankind and therefore above reproach and entitled to whatever they can get away with. Fix that attitude, start training boys to be humans rather than insisting they be MANLY MANLY MEN and a lot of this would go away, along with a lot of rape, incels, intimate partner violence and child abuse. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > ETA: SmartAleq, I agreed with you about men—I suspect testosterone is a huge factor here—but then you immediately came back with how it’s nothing fundamentally about men but just about white male patriarchy. You are all over the map. It’s not something “fundamentally about men,” because the vast majority of men, in spite of their patriarchal programming, manage to temper those messages with sense and realize there’s a problem with the messages they’ve been given from birth. They resist behaving as though they are inherently entitled to be fucking savages towards other people based on their perceived higher status. This is because most people are not assholes. Generally. Get them stressed and their indoctrination will tend to show more. You will also notice that I said nothing about “white male patriarchy” I said PATRIARCHY. Our particular form of patriarchy puts white men at the tippy top of the pyramid. Other men are lesser men in our form of patriarchy but are still privileged above women of their own race. We have a dichotomy because we are a patriarchal society while also being a profoundly racist society–both of these things are systemic and operate congruently. How congruently is dependent on where you fall in the two hierarchies and how much you buy into what the patriarchal messages tell you about people in your specific set of classifications. Your inability and/or unwillingness to educate yourself regarding the very real societal systems we live and operate under does not change the nature of these systems–it just tends to highlight your own prejudices and lack of understanding. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/117 "2019-08-06T21:58:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Which is completely at odds with a place like Stormfront. So that was just a lazy and bogus potshot. No, it’s only partially at odds with them. Lazy potshot, sure, but not bogus. You’re a white supremacist – just one of the friendlier types. > [@](#): > > Yes, like the part where I was born. I have already been clear that I think those sorts of colonialists have been unfairly demonized. The places they colonized would have been better off to follow the path of somewhere like Canada rather than the path of Haiti. They were so eager for self rule they threw the baby out with the bathwater. The Haitians were eager to not be slaves any more. When the choice is violent revolution or continued mass-rape and death-by-work at 30 (if not long before from tropical disease), then humans are likely to choose violent revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Shagunathor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@Shagunathor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagunathor)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/118 "2019-08-06T22:01:21Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=878741](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=878741) Thank you for the link. Try as I might, I cannot get the 75% figure to comport with the analysis of the Fridel paper. The only major difference I can see between the stated methodologies is that Fridel excludes spree killings and includes non-firearm murders. She breaks down the data enough, though, that one can see this does not account for the difference. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/119 "2019-08-06T22:21:09Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > It’s not something “fundamentally about men,” because the vast majority of men, in spite of their patriarchal programming, manage to temper those messages with sense and realize there’s a problem with the messages they’ve been given from birth. This is why I say you are all over the map. You just wrote a post about how maybe we should take away guns from all men! (And then, BTW, you made the casually sexist suggestion that this would somehow make it impossible to have police or military.) > [@SmartAleq](#): > > You will also notice that I said nothing about “white male patriarchy” I said PATRIARCHY. FFS, do you have a memory condition like that guy in “Memento”? > [@SmartAleq](#): > > It’s not a matter of gender essentialism, it’s an artifact of a patriarchal society that decrees that white men are the ne plus ultra of humankind and therefore above reproach and entitled to whatever they can get away with. That you didn’t use the phrase “white male patriarchy” doesn’t make my paraphrase inaccurate. > [@SmartAleq](#): > > Your inability and/or unwillingness to educate yourself regarding the very real societal systems we live and operate under does not change the nature of these systems–it just tends to highlight your own prejudices and lack of understanding. You would like to think I am ignorant—that simplifies things for you. The reality is that I grew up in a household where I was inculcated with all this stuff: my mother was a professor of sociology and my father a professor of anthropology. I devoured the books on their bookshelves. When I met my current wife, she was working on a sociology Ph.D. at a Research 1 university. I also devoured her seminar readings. I always felt this stuff elided some obvious truths, so it was a revelation to read Pinker’s devastating takedown of what he calls the Standard Social Science Model or SSSM. So the reality is that I am very well versed in these theories—and I see right through them. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157/120 "2019-08-06T22:30:16Z")
> [@Shagunathor](#): > > Thank you for the link. > > Try as I might, I cannot get the 75% figure to comport with the analysis of the Fridel paper. The only major difference I can see between the stated methodologies is that Fridel excludes spree killings and includes non-firearm murders. She breaks down the data enough, though, that one can see this does not account for the difference. You’re welcome. I believe the NYT analysis is just for the most recent year with data. True also for Fridel? Does she use the same definition of any shooting with four or more victims, regardless of whether they died or survived their wounds? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-wedkss-awful-mass-murder/838157.md?page=7)