# This week's Tolkien thread: how could the Ringwar have been won if Frodo had died ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 27, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855 "2008-10-27T22:44:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/41 "2008-10-28T19:49:13Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Of course, the most likely possibility for any of these scenarios is that Radagast shows up and solves everything. So, “a wizard did it.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/42 "2008-10-28T19:58:43Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I think Scenario #3 is the least involved & least interesting, because Sam (not being burdened by dragging Hamlet Baggins across the choking waste) just offs Gollum, trots across the plains of Gorgoroth, flips the ring into the fire and says “that’s that!”. “Now, time for lunch!” Sam was a badass. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/43 "2008-10-28T20:10:49Z")
I should know better than to step into a Tolkien argument, but obviously I don’t. My take: Scenario 1: Gandalf opines that Frodo had apparently been “meant” to carry the Ring as far as Imladris, but the burden must be someone else’s now. Aragorn disqualifies himself, as does Gandalf (probably Legolas, too). Boromir is not allowed to take it. The Ring goes to Sam, who perishes in the Marshes of the Dead while trying to reach Mordor. (Remember, the two hobbits would never have made it _to_ Mordor, much less through it, without the aid of Gollum, and that ain’t gonna happen if Sam is in charge.) Sauron does not get the Ring, but neither is it destroyed. The free peoples lose the War of the Ring and Middle Earth falls into darkness for thousands of years until Eru brings about his downfall by some other unforeseen means, many thousands of years in the future. Scenario 2: Boromir tries and fails to take the Ring from Sam. Sam accepts protection from the rest of the Fellowship, and Aragorn has a hard decision to make. He defers to Sam, the Fellowship heads to Mordor, are captured by Orcs, and the Ring goes to Sauron. Sauron wins until Eru . . . well, you know the drill, except this time it’s _many_ thousands of years. Scenario 3: Sam takes the Ring and the mithril shirt and penetrates Mordor. At this point, one of three things happens: A) Gollum ambushes Sam, takes the Ring, and has it wrested from him by Sauron. Cue “many thousands of years,” etc. B) Gollum ambushes Sam, Sam guts him and leaves his entrails strung out for craban-treats, and eventually falls to the temptation of the Ring. (I find this the least likely ending). He returns to the West, puts together an alliance through the power of the Ring, and Middle Earth falls into a completely different sort of darkness. C) Sam defeats the pesky Gollum, makes his way to the cracks of doom, and completes the quest. He is so scarred by the ordeal, though, that he forgoes Middle Earth for the Undying Lands the way that Frodo ended up doing. My middle name is Earl, which sound a little like Eru, so my version takes precedence over all of yours. So there. RR ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/44 "2008-10-28T20:27:40Z")
> [@RiverRunner](#): > > Scenario 3: Sam takes the Ring and the mithril shirt and penetrates Mordor. At this point, one of three things happens: > A) Gollum ambushes Sam, takes the Ring, and has it wrested from him by Sauron. Cue “many thousands of years,” etc. > B) Gollum ambushes Sam, Sam guts him and leaves his entrails strung out for craban-treats, and eventually falls to the temptation of the Ring. (I find this the least likely ending). He returns to the West, puts together an alliance through the power of the Ring, and Middle Earth falls into a completely different sort of darkness. > C) Sam defeats the pesky Gollum, makes his way to the cracks of doom, and completes the quest. He is so scarred by the ordeal, though, that he forgoes Middle Earth for the Undying Lands the way that Frodo ended up doing. A) OK, I’ll buy that. B) Never would happen. If Sam tried to do that he would have lost the Ring to a more powerful lord. It could have been nearly any Lord of Captain. The effect it had on Boromir would have been felt on others. Aragorn and Faramir were rather exceptional among men. Not even Isildur could resist the Ring. It would have taken Sam too long to build power and he probably did not have enough innate power to build and control an alliance. C) Reasonable and Sam could well have completed the Quest. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/45 "2008-10-28T21:36:24Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Okay, but dominate him to do what? The Ring doesn’t just seize control out of the blue; it has to corrupt the bearer by twisting his desires to its will. “Now that I’ve killed that slinking, stinking git, Gollum,” Sam thought as he slipped the One Ring onto his finger, “I should go ahead and use it to make sure Sauron falls. After all, who knows if destroying it will REALLY do any good. Sure, Gandalf thought so, but he’s the one that sent Mr. Frodo on this fool’s errand that cost him his life! :😭: Only I am great enough to wield this ring and save Middle-Earth. After all, I slew the great Shelob…” ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/46 "2008-10-28T21:48:27Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > “Now that I’ve killed that slinking, stinking git, Gollum,” Sam thought as he slipped the One Ring onto his finger, “I should go ahead and use it to make sure Sauron falls. After all, who knows if destroying it will REALLY do any good. Sure, Gandalf thought so, but he’s the one that sent Mr. Frodo on this fool’s errand that cost him his life! :😭: Only I am great enough to wield this ring and save Middle-Earth. After all, I slew the great Shelob…” I frankly have to question whether the distance between killing Gollum and taking on Sauron is quite that much of a slippery slope. Hell, Sam realized that he couldn’t even trust the Ring’s ability to make him the greatest _gardener_ in Middle-Earth, and he was a much more practiced gardener than he was a spider-slayer. Maybe-- just maybe-- if, after killing Gollum, Sam paused to scarf down several times his own weight in hallucinogenic mushrooms, and THEN put on the Ring… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/47 "2008-10-28T21:54:52Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > I frankly have to question whether the distance between killing Gollum and taking on Sauron is quite that much of a slippery slope. Hell, Sam realized that he couldn’t even trust the Ring’s ability to make him the greatest _gardener_ in Middle-Earth, and he was a much more practiced gardener than he was a spider-slayer. > > Maybe-- just maybe-- if, after killing Gollum, Sam paused to scarf down several times his own weight in hallucinogenic mushrooms, and THEN put on the Ring… You leave me no choice but to Appeal to Authority. I’ll use your own words to damn you: > [@](#): > > It was Skald! He said it first! I was simply responding to the proposed scenario. I am not to blame here! I was the subject of external influence! It was crass misdirection, I assure you. **Skald is the author of all evil, you know that**! My own purely innocent and trusting nature often leads me astray in such matters. Now, while I am not in fact the author of all author–taht being my Uncle Luci–I nevertheless am not merely plotting to murder strictly for the comedy value but also am a tenured professor at the University of Tartarus. Trust me when I say I know MUCH more about the pitfalls and modus operandi of such evil artifacts than you ever will. Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going to try to get this stupid armring off. I’m not sure whether my arm is swollen or the ring’s shrinking, but te damn thing is stuck like a mofo. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/48 "2008-10-28T21:59:50Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You leave me no choice but to Appeal to Authority. I’ll use your own words to damn you: Hah! You fool! Little did you realize that I have _no authority whatsoever!_ I do, however, have lots and lots of mushrooms. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/49 "2008-10-28T22:03:06Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Hah! You fool! Little did you realize that I have _no authority whatsoever!_ > > I do, however, have lots and lots of mushrooms. Fool of a Took! I was appealing to MY OWN authority as a professional evil-doer, and using your own words to demonstrate you had already recognized me as such. You’d have realized that if it weren’t for the mushrooms. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/50 "2008-10-28T22:22:23Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Fool of a Took! I was appealing to MY OWN authority as a professional evil-doer, and using your own words to demonstrate you had already recognized me as such. You’d have realized that if it weren’t for the mushrooms. Oh nonsense. I don’t acknowledge half the things I recognize as knowledge, and recognize less than half my own knowledge half as often as it deserves to be acknowledged. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/51 "2008-10-28T22:25:21Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Oh nonsense. I don’t acknowledge half the things I recognize as knowledge, and recognize less than half my own knowledge half as often as it deserves to be acknowledged. I could respond, but I think it would be easier just to release the velociraptors. My R&D department has been working on installing particle-beam cannons in their eyeballs and I want to see how that’s gonna work out. Or, put another way, I am going to go leave work, which means logging off. Ciao! ---
**Author:** ![freekalette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@freekalette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freekalette)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/52 "2008-10-28T23:05:22Z")
**Skald** and **Terrifel** , you are the greatest. I don’t care how evil and/or fucked up you both are, it’s damn entertaining to read! Psst, couldja pass some of that pipeweed my way while you’re at it? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/53 "2008-10-29T00:17:24Z")
Though few are aware of the fact, velociraptors were actually the first species chosen by Sauron for the elite steeds of the Nine Nazgul, due to their exceptional speed and ferocity in combat. However, due to a clerical error in translating Sauron’s instructions into Black Speech, the project supervisors were led to believe that these “raptors,” like the birds of prey, also somehow possessed the ability to fly, despite having no visible wings whatsoever. This unfortunate situation, combined with a deeply ingrained unwillingness to question the Dark Lord’s instructions, led to the entire population of velociraptors being launched to their deaths from mountaintops in an attempt to awaken their innate flying ability. This of course is how the tradition arose of referring to any reptilian steed of the Nazgul as a “Fell Beast.” It is said that the last words of the ill-fated orc-chieftain in charge of the project were: “As Melkor is my witness, I thought raptors could fly.” ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/54 "2008-10-29T02:32:52Z")
Solution to any of the problems: Gandalf swears a blue streak, makes one of the hobbits pick up the ring, grabs the halfling by the scruff of the neck and summons a giant eagle. Hours later, the ring is safely deposited in the fires of Mount Doom. What he should have done in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/55 "2008-10-29T02:47:57Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Though few are aware of the fact, velociraptors were actually the first species chosen by Sauron for the elite steeds of the Nine Nazgul, due to their exceptional speed and ferocity in combat. However, due to a clerical error in translating Sauron’s instructions into Black Speech, the project supervisors were led to believe that these “raptors,” like the birds of prey, also somehow possessed the ability to fly, despite having no visible wings whatsoever. This unfortunate situation, combined with a deeply ingrained unwillingness to question the Dark Lord’s instructions, led to the entire population of velociraptors being launched to their deaths from mountaintops in an attempt to awaken their innate flying ability. > > This of course is how the tradition arose of referring to any reptilian steed of the Nazgul as a “Fell Beast.” > > It is said that the last words of the ill-fated orc-chieftain in charge of the project were: “As Melkor is my witness, I thought raptors could fly.” Darn you to heck **Terrifel** , that last line finally did it. I hate to admit to it but you made me choke on my gum. So I guess the snaga under the Orc Chief called him “The Big Guy.” Hmmm, Herb Tarlek ½ Orc. Yes, it all makes sense now. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/56 "2008-10-29T08:37:34Z")
Sam would have done it, made quicker by a timely ride on a great eagle. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/57 "2008-10-29T15:08:47Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Solution to any of the problems: > > Gandalf swears a blue streak, makes one of the hobbits pick up the ring, grabs the halfling by the scruff of the neck and summons a giant eagle. Hours later, the ring is safely deposited in the fires of Mount Doom. > > What he should have done in the first place. That is another Tolkien thread. You can start it, but I won’t, because I’ve decided to start only one sf/fantasy literature thread a week, and next week’s won’t be about the professor. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/58 "2008-10-29T15:11:52Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Though few are aware of the fact, velociraptors were actually the first species chosen by Sauron for the elite steeds of the Nine Nazgul, due to their exceptional speed and ferocity in combat. > \ > It is said that the last words of the ill-fated orc-chieftain in charge of the project were: “As Melkor is my witness, I thought raptors could fly.” :: eyes narrowing :: Why the hell aren’t you dead? Why for god’s name won’t you DIE when you are supposed to? :: growling :: Never mind. Just…never mind. I’ll deal with you later. First I have to go [del]eviscerate[/del] encourage the R & D manager. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/59 "2008-10-29T16:34:58Z")
Scenario #1: Frodo dies at Rivendell. Merry becomes the ringbearer, and does pretty much everything Frodo would have done. This time, however, Providence smiles on Faramir, and he does not get struck down by the Nazgul. Denethor sends him out again, on a secret mission behind enemy lines. Since the mission requires stealth rather than heroics, Pippin volunteers to accompany him. Denethor agrees. After they complete the mission, they hook up with Theoden’s army. When the big battle happens, Faramir and Pippin are at Theoden’s side. The Witch-King wounds Faramir, and mortally wounds Theoden. Eowyn does her thing. This time, it is Pippin (and, more importantly, that Arnorian blade from the Barrow-Downs) who hamstrings the Witch-King, enabling Eowyn to finish him off. Denethor, watching the battle with the palantir, sees Faramir struck down, and does the self-immolation thing. Aragorn heals Faramir and Eowyn, and everybody lives happily ever after. * * * Scenario #2: Frodo dies in Moria. Sam or Merry takes the ring. When offered the ring, Galadriel yields to temptation, and takes it. Armed with the ring, the Lothlorien army starts kicking ass, all the way to the slopes of Mount Doom. When Galadriel and Sauron face off, the ring betrays Galadriel and slips from her finger. While Sauron is killing Galadriel, Gollum sneaks in and grabs the ring. As he jumps for joy, he slips and falls into the lava. Down below, Aragorn and the Gondorian army see a shadow rise above the wreckage. The shadow looks toward the lava, mouths the words “What the f—?”, and a wind from the West blows it into oblivion. * * * Scenario #3: Shelob kills Frodo. Sam takes the ring, and continues to Mount Doom. As he stands above the lava, he yields to temptation, and claims the ring. Gollum bites his finger off. Sam kicks Gollum in the nads, and Gollum falls into the lava. > [@](#): > > by **Skald the Rhymer** > Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going to try to get this stupid armring off. I’m not sure whether my arm is swollen or the ring’s shrinking, but te damn thing is stuck like a mofo. Better take care of that. If that’s Draupnir you’re talking about, in nine nights, it’s going to get a whole lot worse. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855/60 "2008-10-29T18:06:41Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Scenario #1: Frodo dies at Rivendell. Merry becomes the ringbearer, and does pretty much everything Frodo would have done. > > \ Who rouses the Ents in this scenario? Doesn’t it leave Saruman’s army pretty much intact after they are routed at Hornburg? Doesn’t it leave Saruman a player, in other words? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-weeks-tolkien-thread-how-could-the-ringwar-have-been-won-if-frodo-had-died/469855.md?page=4)