Better ending than the scouring of the Shire! (Except maybe leave the dwarves out . . .)
He wasn’t, though, was he?
He wasn’t because he heard Shagrat & Gorbag arguing & mentioning that Frodo was alive, leading to his rescue of Frodo and the two of them together getting to Mount Doom. Sam doesn’t have the brains or the determination to make it to Mt. Doom all by himself. The whole way through Mordor, his motivation was taking care of Mr. Frodo, not destroying the Ring. If Frodo had said “Screw it, lets bury the Ring here and go home,” Sam would have agreed instantly.
Rubbish!
Ok, I’m going from my memory of the books (and the BBC radio plays). To rescue Frodo he has to get past the hidden watchers and take on a tower full of orcs. This just after beating the crap out of Shelob. He is full of bravery and determination.
Having reread your post though, I think you might be arguing that neither hobbit would have made it on their own. If so, I tend to agree. But I think Sam would have more chance than Frodo. He’s not too bright, but that’s not what’s needed anymore.
And, oh dear, I seem to be arguing in a Tolkien thread. Help meeeeee . . . .
Not that there is anything wrong with that. 
I tend to agree with you. Sam may well have completed the quest without Frodo from Shelob’s lair. He really should have taken the mithril chain mail though with Gollum’s whereabouts still unknown. He knew how to get to Mt. Doom at that point and already showed the determination to complete the job. He may well have made it and with Eru Ilúvatar nudging some of these events I think he would have.
Gandalf seemed to hint that too many coincidences occurred for there not to have been something else at work. That something else by default was probably Eru’s will. I don’t think he made it all happen though, I think he just gave a few nudges at the right time.
Now to tackle #2 which starts with the incorrect premise that a Cave Troll speared Frodo. For someone that hates PJ’s movies I am surprised Skald the Rhymer made this mistake. That troll bugged the hell out of me watching the movie.
I think at that point and assuming Gandalf still fell. One of the Hobbits would have taken up the burden. Merry was his oldest relative along on the quest and Samwise was still looked at more as a bumpkin than a serious person at that point. We know no one would trust Pippin with it. So I think Merry would have taken up Ring, Mail & Sting and carried on the best he could. Sam would have been a wreck at that point anyway.
Boromir may have caused grief even earlier though as I doubt he would have respected Merry as much as Frodo who was chosen by Gandalf & Elrond. The scene with Galadriel is hard to predict. There is a good chance that Merry never would have offered the Ring to Galadriel and it is doubtful that Sam would have tagged along to the Mirror. I suspect Pippin would have instead. I think the party would have made it through the Golden Woods with ease.
At Amon Hen I think Merry would not have gone off by himself and would have put the burden of choosing the path completely on Strider. So Boromir may not have had the chance to fall and then redeem himself at that point. I think Aragorn would have chosen to take Merry and any others that would follow to Mordor and try to find a way in. Boromir would have headed home, but I think the rest would have gone on. If Boromir arrived safely back in Minas Tirith, this would have partially compensated for the loss/delay of Rohan and the Army led by Aragorn as Denethor probably would not have gone to despair as soon and by all accounts in war Boromir was at his best and probably a better battle captain than Faramir who was great.
This brings up the question, would Gandalf the White have raised the Ents himself and still saved Rohan. We’ll never know for sure why he headed that direction and not after Frodo accept when he mentioned the Ring was beyond his help. So the White Rider may still have saved Rohan and thus led a strong army to aid Minas Tirith when the Red Arrow was sent.
This also leads to a question. What would Halbarad and Elladan and Elrohir and the other Rangers of the North have done when they arrived in Rohan and did not find Aragorn yet? I’m guessing they would have road on with the Riders to do what they could in the war and hope they found Aragorn.
Now with no Merry and no Éowyn despairing over her school crush of Aragorn, what would have happened to the WitchKing?
I believe Frodo was the Third Age’s one chance to defeat the forces of darkness. If he failed, that was it. Sauron would have ruled a very dark Fourth Age.
But as you say, Melkor’s insurgency always plays into Eru’s theme, in the long run. There would be another chance for darkness to fail at the end of the Fourth Age. I don’t know what it would be; probably impossible to foretell from the events of the Third Age.
Perhaps after an age of supremacy in Middle Earth, Sauron would become arrogant enough to directly challenge the Valar. Perhaps a band of Orcs in some forgotten valley regress to a less corrupted state and exploit another secret weakness of the Dark Lord. Perhaps the Brown Wizard leads the forces of nature in rebellion against the machines of Sauron. Perhaps the kingdoms of the East come into their own with the help of the Blue Wizards.
Lots of possibilities.
“Of these things two tales are written, and which of them is true, only the Wise could say, who now are gone.”
No, I’m not really arguing that (though it’s true). Sam wouldn’t have been able to do it, because he’s not a big idea guy. He’s a little idea guy. He’s devoted to Frodo. The destruction of the Ring he could take or leave. If Frodo was really dead, he would have moped around a bit, and made a half-hearted attempt to get to Mt. Doom, but either orcs would have gotten him, or Gollum would. Hell, when he thought Frodo was really dead, he followed the orcs just to prevent them spoiling his body instead of heading into Mordor to destroy the Ring.
I disagree. Because of his devotion to Frodo he hates the ring, having seen what it’s done to him. I could see him destroying the ring merely for revenge.
To be fair in “The Choices of Master Samwise”, Sam nearly blew it all just trying to defend (what he thought) was Frodo’s corpse.
Well, of all the interesting possibilities presented thus far, I have to say I like Pleonast’s best. I don’t think Sauron would have been defeated without Frodo. His brand of heroism, his character, sets the trilogy apart from other heroic stories.
I esp. like Pleonasts’ speculations:“Perhaps after an age of supremacy in Middle Earth, Sauron would become arrogant enough to directly challenge the Valar. Perhaps a band of Orcs in some forgotten valley regress to a less corrupted state and exploit another secret weakness of the Dark Lord. Perhaps the Brown Wizard leads the forces of nature in rebellion against the machines of Sauron. Perhaps the kingdoms of the East come into their own with the help of the Blue Wizards.” These fit so well into the organic whole that JRRT developed.
Well, maybe I need a reread (or listen*). I’ve always liked Sam, so am probably biased.
*I mentioned the BBC series before. It’s absolutely fantastic and 13 hours of pure pleasure. A bit thick on the thees and thous, but, hey, so are the books. Ian Holm (Bilbo in the films) is Frodo, and Michael Hordern might be a better Gandalf than Ian McKellan. If you haven’t already, check them out.
Slightly off-topic - but since Petrobey there mentioned the audio versions, I have to recommend the unabridged audios also. When I was recovering from eye surgery that’s how I passed the time. But I didn’t like Aragorn in either audio version. He really comes off as a poncy git. Makes me like the movie Aragorn even more. Just my opinion folks.
What about this scenario. Frodo dies and Boromir takes the ring. He’d take the ring back to Gondor and, I’m assuming, the ring would help them easily win the war. Of course, afterwards, we’re back where we started. The ring is still around, Boromir turns evil and the ring either slips out of his pocketses. At this point, we have a new book, The Return of the Ring.
I am not sure who can actually go through the mission other than Frodo. Sam was a great guy but it is made clear near the end of the book that he can’t handle the ring, even if it’s for a few minutes. Pippin would throw it into a well to hear the splash. Bilbo has already been corrupted. Gandalf didn’t want it, although i would assume he would step up and take it if Frodo died before getting to Rivendell. I’m not sure how Gimli would act with the ring. I’d imagine he would have used it to rebuild Moria. Legolas and Elrond have potential and so does Aragorn. Merry could have possibly done it too.
Tom Bombadil is immune to the ring but he couldn’t care less.
I think Merry would be the safest non-Frodo bet at any point of the journey. Although, I have a hard time believing the counsel would have trusted him with the ring. He didn’t even get an invite to the thing.
I think Scenario #3 is the least involved & least interesting, because Sam (not being burdened by dragging Hamlet Baggins across the choking waste) just offs Gollum, trots across the plains of Gorgoroth, flips the ring into the fire and says “that’s that!”.
Not to get boring, but in a scenario where Sauron gets the upper hand, can Gandalf the White be killed? What would happen to him if the WitchKing didn’t get stabbed by Eowyn and came back to finish off the wizard? Would he be brought back AGAIN? Gandalf the what - Silver?
What’s really bad is that I KNEW it was no cave troll. I actaully check the book to be triple-sure it was described as an orc and not a goblin, but somehow screwed it up anyway.
Someone will pay for this. And by “someone” I mean “New Zealand.”
I agree that Sam would be entirely justified in killing Gollum. I agree that, on paper, that would seem the wiser course of action. I’m not saying that Sam would be legally a murderer.
But that doesn’t matter as much as motivation, in my eyes. Remember the One Ring is inherently evil, and it’s trying to worm its way into the heart of anyone who happens to be bearing it or near it. It fails with Gandalf, Aragorn, & Galadriel because they were conscious of its blandishments and because they were strong-willed; it had a hard time with Frodo, Faramir, and especially Sam because they had little–but not ZERO–evil in their hearts.
If Sam, as Ring-bearer, had chanced upon Gollum last road to Mount Doom, I aver that his first thought isn’t going to be “I must slay Gollum because I have no time to do anything else, and the world hinges on my choice.” Nor would it be “I must slay poor Slinker, because he too has suffered because of this Ring and killing him is an act of mercy.” No, it would be, “I’m gonna kill this motherfucker Stinker, because he killed my wonderful and wise master whom I love more than anyone than Rosie.” He’d be motivated by revenge, and that would open the road for the Ring to dominate him at the last moment, just as Frodo’s exhaustion opened the door for the Ring to dominate him at the last moment. Only there’d be no Gollum to act as Karma’s Fist, so Iluvatur would have to drop a rock on him or something. 
By the way, speaking of my incredibly stupid error in the OP:
[rationalization mode]
More than a few of youse guys were averring last week that trolls–at least some of them, are no more than giant orcs. Therefore I have decided to [del]pretend[/del] claim that when I wrote “cave-troll” above, I wasin accords with that theory and was treating “troll” as a subset of “orc,” just as I might have written that Merry & Pippin were kidnapped by orcs when, most properly, one should specify an Uruk-hai/orc task force.
[/rationalization mode.
If you’d like, I can also justify invading Iraq!
Sorry but I have to reject this too. I and others talked about the Olog-Hai possibly being very large orcs not cave trolls and other trolls. The Olog-Hai were the ones that did not turn to stone in sunlight. Uruk-Hai are a type of large orc, Olog-Hai might be but cave-trolls clearly are not.
(I’m only nitpicking as I think you’ll take it in fun the way I intended)
Say it with me: ra-tion-a-LIZ-ing. For purposes of this excuse, I am not part of the reality-based community.
More seriously, I think I made the error because I do not, in fact, hate all three movies, or at least I didn’t ALWAYS hate all three. It’s just that the third is so bad it reached back through the veils of time and ruined the memories of the first two. Short of like waking up in bed with the hot girl you met in a bar the previous night, only to discover that, when viewed without beer googles, her freckles are pus-filled sores, her waves of ebon hair are king cobras, and her teeth are British. No matter how good the sex was, you’re not going to look upon those memories fondly.
Okay, but dominate him to do what? The Ring doesn’t just seize control out of the blue; it has to corrupt the bearer by twisting his desires to its will. But if Sam kills Gollum in righteous fury, where’s the Ring’s wiggle room? The Mountain is still right there in front of him. His one desire, to kill Gollum, has been fulfilled already. His other desire is to finish the Quest and destroy the Ring, and killing Gollum just makes that task easier. Is the Ring going to convince him to go on a sightseeing tour of Mordor first? There’s nothing the Ring can tempt him with that would cause him to leave the Mountain BEFORE he destroys it.
The only possible exception I can imagine is if the Ring tried to persuade him that it had the power to bring Frodo back to life. And I seriously doubt that Master Samwise would fall for such a last-ditch deception after having seen through its temptations before.