# This whole brontosaurus/apatosaurus nonsense **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 17, 2016, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812 "2016-10-17T09:43:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/21 "2016-10-17T16:52:07Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Thanks, that makes sense. What – texting pandas? Because, honestly, I just made that bit up. I mean, I’ll look into it if you like, but I’ll be surprised if that’s right. > [@delphica](#): > > Wait, seriously, we’re back to bears now? How are people supposed to keep up with this? FFS. Now look, if you cared about it that much, you’d stay on top of the latest developments in the cut-and-thrust world of phylogenetic nomenclature. Or, as TriPolar says, occasionally ask a schoolchild. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/22 "2016-10-17T17:23:07Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > Now look, if you cared about it that much, you’d stay on top of the latest developments in the cut-and-thrust world of phylogenetic nomenclature. Or, as TriPolar says, occasionally ask a schoolchild. Hee, I was recently corrected by a schoolchild who informed me that the Bohr model of the atom is hopelessly out of date. Look kid, Neils Bohr won a Nobel Prize, I think I can still use his model of the atom to describe a necklace you made out of glo sticks. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/23 "2016-10-17T17:25:40Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Because [the one that’s named first gets seniority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synonym_(taxonomy)#Zoology). Othniel Marsh discovered both: Apatosaurus in 1877, and Brontosaurus in 1879. He was often in pressure vs. Cope to discover new stuff. So you’d better dig up an absolutely new species if you want to name Dickheadasaurus after his protuberances. They have ignored that rule when it suited their purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/24 "2016-10-17T17:31:32Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Further they should have said that since brontosaurus is the name everyone is familiar with, that’s the principal name and apatosaurus is the alternative name. > > Why didn’t they do that? Because that’s not how scientific naming works. _Apatosaurus ajax_ was discovered in 1877, two years before _Brontosaurus excelsis_. That gave Apatosaurus precedence when they were resorted into the same genus. (They’ve never been considered the same species.) This happened in 1903, so the idea that it’s new is rather more annoying than the insistence that it has to be Brontosaurus. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/25 "2016-10-17T20:06:09Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > That’s why turtles no longer fly. Not since since ~455BC, ask [Aeschylus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeschylus), maybe. (And a tortoise and a turtle are the same thing according to Holden.) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/26 "2016-10-17T20:36:42Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Thanks, that makes sense. > Not too long ago, you could order dolphin meat at restaurants, but now they ruined our fun by calling it “mahi mahi.” > > ETA: and according to Wikipedia they have tons of binomial synonyms! You can still get dolphin in Barbados. But they usually call it dolphin fish and will quickly explain it is not the sea mammal. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/27 "2016-10-17T20:39:03Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > You can still get dolphin in Barbados. But they usually call it dolphin fish and will quickly explain it is not the sea mammal. Or Dorado in other locals. Both Mahi-mahi and Dorado are better name anyway. Some few call it _Coryphaena hippurus_ I calls it tasty. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/28 "2016-10-17T21:33:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Or Dorado in other locals. > > Both Mahi-mahi and Dorado are better name anyway. > > Some few call it _Coryphaena hippurus_ It was dorado after dolphin, but now I only see mahi mahi on menus around here (it doesn’t come up often). I couldn’t post it earlier on my phone, but re: my edit above, you _could_ call it Coryphaena hippurus. You could also call it Scomber pelagicus or Coryphaena fasciolata or Coryphaena chrysurus or… apparently at least 14 other synonym names! ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/29 "2016-10-17T21:51:24Z")
Brontosaurus…Pluto…how much more can we lose, I ask you? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/30 "2016-10-17T22:55:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They have ignored that rule when it suited their purpose. Yeah, man–Big Paleontology, tryin’ to keep the brontosaurus down, man! 'Cause, like, it suits their _purpose_, man! Wheels within wheels, man. Wheels within wheels. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/31 "2016-10-17T23:07:06Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Pterodactyls aren’t dinosaurs. > > I only bring it up because this whole thread is about acceptable limits of pedantry. [FAKE DINOSAUR!](https://youtu.be/4vSY_rB928c?t=20s) And that’s the only stand-up act I’ve seen about dinosaurs. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/32 "2016-10-18T02:26:58Z")
I wonder what the writer/director formerly known as Judd Brontow thinks of this whole re-naming thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/33 "2016-10-18T17:08:45Z")
Here’s the key passage from the Wikipedia link Gyrate posted: > [@](#): > > In 2015, an extensive study of diplodocid relationships by Emanuel Tschopp, Octavio Mateus, and Roger Benson concluded that Brontosaurus was indeed a valid genus of sauropod distinct from Apatosaurus. The scientists developed a statistical method to more objectively assess differences between fossil genera and species, and concluded that Brontosaurus could be “resurrected” as a valid name. They assigned two former Apatosaurus species, A. parvus and A. yahnahpin, to Brontosaurus, as well as the type species B. excelsus.[3] Briefly, there are two main divisions of sauropod dinosaurs (the really big long-necked ones): diplodocid and macronarian. Diplodocids typically have very long necks and tails, and long “horselike” skulls. Macronarians have more domed skulls with large nasal cavities (and may have had soft material that did not fossilize well like bulbous noses, sacs, or even trunks, for all we know). The macronarians are further usually separated into basal macronarians, like _Camarasaurus_ and _Brachiosaurus_, and the titanosaurs (which typically have wider bodies than brachiousaurs, among other differences). A famous confusion relevant to this discussion is that an early _Apatosaurus/Brontosaurus_ skeleton was headless, and was erroneously paired with a _Camarasaurus_ skull when put on display. Paleontology is not only relatively new, it’s booming. Lots of new stuff is being learned. When I was a child, we were told that the sauropods had all perished in the Jurassic and none had made it into the Cretaceous. It turns out that was completely, delightfully wrong – many titanosaurs thrived around the world right up until the big rock hit. Expect some parts of our understanding to shift again! ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/34 "2016-10-18T17:28:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They have ignored that rule when it suited their purpose. Indeed. I agree that there’s no point in changing the popular name to suit the strict scientific naming. I think people ought to be allowed to call the creature famously painted by Charles Knight a brontosaurus whether it properly is or not. After all, when they found out that the name “platypus” (“broad foot”) had already been used for a species of beetle ( [Platypus (beetle) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus_(weevil)) ) that didn’t cause everyone to rename the Australian monotreme with the duck-like bill an “Ornithorhynchus” instead, even though that’s now its scientific name. It’s still a “duck-billed platypus”, beetle be damned. > **[Platypus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus)** > > The platypus (Ornithorhynchus anatinus), sometimes referred to as the duck-billed platypus, is a semiaquatic, egg-laying mammal endemic to eastern Australia, including Tasmania. The platypus is the sole living representative or monotypic taxon of its family Ornithorhynchidae and genus Ornithorhynchus, though a number of related species appear in the fossil record. > Together with the four species of echidna, it is one of the five extant species of monotremes, mammals that lay eggs instead of... ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/35 "2016-10-18T17:33:46Z")
As a nit-pick on the side bar conversation about mahi-mahi = dorado = dolphin (the mammal) - this is simply not true. The dorado is, admittedly, occasionally called “dolphin” or “dolphin fish” but it is most certainly not a mammal. Obligitary link to that font of all contemporary wisdom (no, not that one!): [Mahi-mahi - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahi-mahi) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/36 "2016-10-18T17:43:01Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > In 1973 ornithologists decided that the Baltimore Oriole and Bullock’s Oriole were the same species, and called them all Northern Oriole. Then 1n 1994, they changed their minds, and split them back again, into the two separate species. Even while there were millions of the birds in nature, flying around, and the ornithologists could hold live specimens in their hands and dissect them and measure them in laboratories and search intermediate habitats to find and study hybrids. Yeah, well, I’d like to know if the Bullock’s Orioles hit 253 home runs this year, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/37 "2016-10-18T17:46:04Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > A turtledove used to be called simply a _turtle_, related to Latin _turtur_. But then we imported the French word for tortoise, _tortue_, couldn’t say it well and it became _turtle_ as well. > > So we had two words, pronounced and spelled the same, referring to two different animals. The confusion caused the original _turtle_ to become _turtledove_. Heh, an interesting example is the use of “Turtle” and “Turtledove” in the Bible. Older translations tend to use them indiscriminately. The Song of Solomon, King James Version: > [@](#): > > The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; Voice of the _turtle_? The 21st Century updated KJV: > [@](#): > > The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtledove is heard in our land. Okay, that makes more sense! ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/38 "2016-10-18T18:00:27Z")
Right, I’m going to use brontosaurus. I prefer not to use the term dolphin when ordering seafood, but will if I can make myself clear that it is not the mammal. A panda is indeed a bear. A koala is not a bear, but people will invariably stick “bear” onto the name. An orca is actually a dolphin, not a whale. Any other weird animal facts to add to the list? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/39 "2016-10-18T19:07:31Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > A famous confusion relevant to this discussion is that an early _Apatosaurus/Brontosaurus_ skeleton was headless, and was erroneously paired with a _Camarasaurus_ skull when put on display. Slightly misleading. They didn’t just plunk a _Camarasaurus_ skull on top of an _Apatosaurus_ skeleton and think it was a new species - they knew the skull wasn’t right, but they had to give it something for the display, and they got the relations within the Sauropods wrong. And, while it contributed to a mis-portrayal of _Brontosaurus_, it didn’t really contribute to the debate about lumping/splitting, since both _A. ajax_ and _B. excelsis_ got it, until after _A. louisae_ was discovered with an intact skull near enough to be definitely associated with it. And, it really bears repeating that at no point were _A. ajax_ and _B. excelsis_ considered the same **species**. The discussion was whether they were the same **genus**. In 1879 (when\* B. excelsis\* was discovered), in 1903 (when it was decided that it didn’t warrant being in a different genus than _A. ajax_), in 2015 (when further study suggested that it, in fact, did)…always different species. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/40 "2016-10-18T22:18:55Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Right, I’m going to use brontosaurus. I prefer not to use the term dolphin when ordering seafood, but will if I can make myself clear that it is not the mammal. A panda is indeed a bear. A koala is not a bear, but people will invariably stick “bear” onto the name. An orca is actually a dolphin, not a whale. > > Any other weird animal facts to add to the list? Leopards are members of the genus _Panthera._ There is a genus _Leopardus,_ but that is an entirely different group of cats. Cougars are sometimes referred to as “mountain lions” or “panthers”, but they are actually more closely related to housecats than to lions or to leopards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812.md?page=3)