# This whole brontosaurus/apatosaurus nonsense **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 17, 2016, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812 "2016-10-17T09:43:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/41 "2016-10-18T22:51:03Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > As a nit-pick on the side bar conversation about mahi-mahi = dorado = dolphin (the mammal) - this is simply not true. > > The dorado is, admittedly, occasionally called “dolphin” or “dolphin fish” but it is most certainly not a mammal. > > Obligitary link to that font of all contemporary wisdom (no, not that one!): [Mahi-mahi - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahi-mahi) I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t think anyone in this thread suggested that mahi mahi was a mammal. > [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Right, I’m going to use brontosaurus. I prefer not to use the term dolphin when ordering seafood, but will if I can make myself clear that it is not the mammal. A panda is indeed a bear. A koala is not a bear, but people will invariably stick “bear” onto the name. An orca is actually a dolphin, not a whale. > > Any other weird animal facts to add to the list? Dolphin vs. porpoise is another one. The thing I learned in childhood is that dolphins have a prominent snout as bottlenose dolphins are the archetypal species. But there are plenty of dolphins with blunt noses, and the distinction is apparently in the tooth shape. I think that this was not something that we later learned though but just something that was oversimplified for children. Also pigeon vs. dove: no clear reason why one species is called one vs. the other. The common city pigeon is also known as rock dove. I guess the ones that got the dove name had better PR firms. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/42 "2016-10-19T02:21:53Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > There is no animal called a hamburger. The food called hamburger comes from the animal called a cow. Actually, more likely from a ‘steer’. Cows produce milk (and baby bovines). ---
**Author:** ![Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellis_Aponte_Jr)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/43 "2016-10-19T04:45:13Z")
When I was a kid, back in the early 1970s, I had a bunch of small plastic toy dinosaurs, each of which had the dinosaur’s common name molded into the plastic somewhere. The one that was shaped like brontosaurus/apatosaurus definitely said “Apatosaurus.” There was no plastic Brontosaurus. I remember that because one time an adult assumed my apatosaurus was a brontosaurus and I proudly corrected him. So it wasn’t just scientists pushing the name apatosaurus. You can also blame the toy industry. (If they really were two separate species, I’m fine with that.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/44 "2016-10-19T04:57:02Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Actually, more likely from a ‘steer’. > > Cows produce milk (and baby bovines). In ordinary speech, “cow” can be used to refer to males or females of any age. For whatever reason English doesn’t have a singular for “cattle,” so “cow” now does double duty. Which is fine. Compare “dog” and “chicken.” ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/45 "2016-10-19T05:50:14Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Which is fine. Compare “dog” and “chicken.” Okay, I butchered the dog and broiled him, and no, he doesn’t taste like chicken. ---
**Author:** ![DrumBum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@DrumBum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrumBum)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/46 "2016-10-19T16:12:44Z")
I pondered [a similar question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=578589) a few years ago. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/47 "2016-10-19T17:07:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In ordinary speech, “cow” can be used to refer to males or females of any age. For whatever reason English doesn’t have a singular for “cattle,” so “cow” now does double duty. > > Which is fine. Compare “dog” and “chicken.” Well, yes, it does, but it’s hardly ever used- cattlebeast. ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/48 "2016-10-19T21:35:39Z")
Cecil’s comments on the subject from 1986: [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/371/is-it-true-the-brontosaurus-never-really-existed](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/371/is-it-true-the-brontosaurus-never-really-existed) Summary: The brontosaurus and the apatosaurus are not different names for the same critter. The “brontosaurus” was the result of mistakenly putting a camarasaurus skull on an apatosaurus skeleton. Once the error was discovered, “the term brontosaurus thus lost its official standing.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/49 "2016-10-19T21:55:38Z")
> [@Cartoonacy](#): > > Cecil’s comments on the subject from 1986: > [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/371/is-it-true-the-brontosaurus-never-really-existed](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/371/is-it-true-the-brontosaurus-never-really-existed) > > Summary: The brontosaurus and the apatosaurus are not different names for the same critter. The “brontosaurus” was the result of mistakenly putting a camarasaurus skull on an apatosaurus skeleton. Once the error was discovered, “the term brontosaurus thus lost its official standing.” It’s outdated, though. The term “brontosaurus” is alleged by some at least to have _regained_ scientific standing; in an influential 2015 paper, the argument was made that the specimens referred to as “brontosaurus” are, in fact, distinct. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4393826/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4393826/) > [@](#): > > The resulting cladogram recovers the classical arrangement of diplodocid relationships. Two numerical approaches were used to increase reproducibility in our taxonomic delimitation of species and genera. This resulted in the proposal that some species previously included in well-known genera like Apatosaurus and Diplodocus are generically distinct. Of particular note is that the famous genus Brontosaurus is considered valid by our quantitative approach. [Emphasis added] ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/50 "2016-10-19T23:05:00Z")
[It’s also factually wrong.](https://extinctmonsters.net/2014/10/30/bully-for-camarasaurus/) As I already stated, though I was running on memory and had misremembered a few details, including consistently misspelling the specific name of the _Brontosaurus_ type specimen. (This article is old, from before the research that suggested _Brontosaurus_ was in fact, a valid genus.) Short version - the headless specimen was named _Brontosaurus excelsus_ right from the start, several years before Marsh drew a reconstruction including a conjectural skull - which was based on skull fragments from several other sauropods, including _Camarasaurus_ - and even more years before a complete Camarasaurus skull was found, _or_ any Brontosaurus skeleton was ever mounted. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/51 "2016-10-20T04:20:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > And they will one day have to check with the younger generations when we find out that whales are actually more closely related to rose bushes than hippopotami\* or some other surprise that advances in science will discover. > > \*Go ahead and make the silly pedantic argument over the plural, everybody knows what it means. Octopi and hippopotami are related because they both have arguments over the correct plural. Virii are also related for the same reason. > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I couldn’t post it earlier on my phone, but re: my edit above, you _could_ call it Coryphaena hippurus. You could also call it Scomber pelagicus or Coryphaena fasciolata or Coryphaena chrysurus or… apparently at least 14 other synonym names! Hah! Puma concolor has more synonyms than that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/52 "2016-10-20T17:09:07Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Octopi and hippopotami are related because they both have arguments over the correct plural. Virii are also related for the same reason. > > . No, there’s no arguments. Octopuses and Hippopotamuses. Octopi is used out of ignorance. > **[Oxford Languages | The Home of Language Data](https://languages.oup.com/)** > > Explore Oxford Languages, the home of world-renowned language data. > **[Octopuses vs. Octopi - What Is the Plural of Octopus?](https://grammarist.com/usage/octopi-octopuses/)** > > There is nothing wrong with the English plural. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/53 "2016-10-20T17:54:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, there’s no arguments. Octopuses and Hippopotamuses. > > Octopi is used out of ignorance. > > [Oxford Languages | The Home of Language Data](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/explore/what-are-the-plurals-of-octopus-hippopotamus-syllabus) > > [Octopuses vs. Octopi - What Is the Plural of Octopus?](http://grammarist.com/usage/octopi-octopuses/) Octopodes is cromulent, but risks sounding too pretentious. Octopi can be used facetiously, like virii (which if you look carefully, makes zero sense), but seriously is too much. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/54 "2016-10-20T18:32:31Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Octopodes is cromulent, but risks sounding too pretentious. Octopi can be used facetiously, like virii (which if you look carefully, makes zero sense), but seriously is too much. “Octopi” has become an accepted variant in English, even though the etymology of that variant makes no sense, or rather is based on a false belief in the Latin origin of the word (and a false knowledge of Latin grammar!). Octopodes may be “cromulent”, but it is a _less_ accepted variant of the (now-English) word “octopus”. From the second link: ’ > [@](#): > > Still, while the use of octopi can’t be justified on an etymological basis, it is not wrong. It is old enough and common enough to be considered an accepted variant. The Oxford English dictionary I think has it right: it lists octopuses, octopi, and octopodes (the order reflecting decreasing frequency of use), stating that the last form is rare. All three are “correct”, but in decreasing order of “correctness” corresponding with decreasing usage; “octopodes”, while the “most correct” from a purely etymological POV, is the “least correct” based on use in the English language. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/55 "2016-10-20T18:57:09Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Octopodes is cromulent, but risks sounding too pretentious. Octopi can be used facetiously, like virii (which if you look carefully, makes zero sense), but seriously is too much. Octopi is fun to use. Now that octopodes has been brought to my attention, however, I think I’ll give that a whirl. Honestly, saying octopuses is ridiculous. An awkward word if ever there was one. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/56 "2016-10-23T05:22:06Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Right, I’m going to use brontosaurus. I prefer not to use the term dolphin when ordering seafood, but will if I can make myself clear that it is not the mammal. A panda is indeed a bear. A koala is not a bear, but people will invariably stick “bear” onto the name. An orca is actually a dolphin, not a whale. > > Any other weird animal facts to add to the list? Umm…well… Forty days ago there was an article published that reveals there are actually [four species of giraffe](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/there-are-four-giraffe-species-not-just-one-180960411/?no-ist), not just the one we thought we all knew. –G! Be careful what you ask for! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/57 "2016-10-23T06:08:44Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > Umm…well… > > Forty days ago there was an article published that reveals there are actually [four species of giraffe](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/there-are-four-giraffe-species-not-just-one-180960411/?no-ist), not just the one we thought we all knew. > > –G! > Be careful what you ask for! :smack: Umm, not quite: "_suggest that giraffes should be divided into four distinct species: "_ Note the word 'suggest". ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/58 "2016-10-23T07:14:33Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Octopi is fun to use. Now that octopodes has been brought to my attention, however, I think I’ll give that a whirl. > > Honestly, saying octopuses is ridiculous. An awkward word if ever there was one. “Awkward”. Describes the entire English language perfectly. I’m not a prescriptivist and never formally studied Latin, but most “I” endings are obnoxiously bad. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/59 "2016-10-23T12:42:31Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > Because that’s not how scientific naming works. Well, it should be. Scientific naming should use popular consensus as a basis for determining nomenclature. For example, if the public uses the word “monkey” to encompass chimpanzees, then the scientific community should not adopt a definition of “monkey” that is inconsistent with this. If the public uses the word “bear” to encompass koalas, then the scientific community should not use the word “bear” to exclude koalas. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812/60 "2016-10-23T14:14:45Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > “Bronto” is also preferred for industrial use. Bronto has electrolytes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-brontosaurus-apatosaurus-nonsense/768812.md?page=4)