# This whole sexual accusation thing – a perspective I’ve not heard discussed **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 2, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295 "2017-12-02T02:24:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/241 "2017-12-07T15:55:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > But you don’t respect that men might be afraid to be alone with you in the store? No, not really. Did you know that there is a difference between men and women? > [@](#): > > In what way can he go further than “Afraid to be alone in a store with a woman”? He will not meet with a woman, even in public, without his wife present. That’s a bit different than not being the only two people in a non-public area. Tell me, if a woman comes into your office, do you close the door and lock the door behind her? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/242 "2017-12-07T16:21:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Wait. What? > > There is nothing about this that is about comparing the irrationality of parents to “stranger danger” (quite irrational as most child sexual abuse is NOT by a stranger, but by a known individual, most commonly a family member, and usually in the home) to the extreme irrationality of being afraid of being falsely accused by a random child sitting in a movie theater or in a public bathroom. There is no question that there is functionally _no_ risk that a random child in a movie theatre with a parent is, out of the blue, going to falsely accuse an unknown man sitting next to them of diddling with her during the show. If you think there is then please provide some evidence of _any_ accusations of such, or even anything comparable, occurring. No reason for a ‘wait what’ throw away line (ever actually 🙂 ) The example _does_ tend to compare the vax situation to society’s treatment of child sex abuse. That’s what comparative examples do. And the weakness again is that anti-vaxers have no virtually leg to stand on. They are being irrational. ‘The mainstream’ is being rational. And whatever marginal exceptions there might be to that rule, just tend to prove it. In contrast only by repeated assertion, and also narrow focus on the extreme, can one IMO say mainstream society has kept its composure about child sex abuse in recent years. I don’t think it has. There’s significant irrationality on the side of accusation, certainly of suspicion, and suspicion of such acts is highly damaging to people. Rarely has it taken the form of true nightmare scenario’s (like McMartin Preschool), but it’definitely there IMO. Describing the issue just in terms of the ‘irrational’ fear of being accused without considering irrational overreaction to the fear of child sex abuse is not correct IMO. And the vax example tends to put it in those terms. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/243 "2017-12-07T16:32:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, not really. Did you know that there is a difference between men and women No way, really? But there is no difference between the way I treat men and the way I treat women. Guess I’m non-sexist that way. > [@](#): > > He will not meet with a woman, even in public, without his wife present. That’s a bit different than not being the only two people in a non-public area Your store isn’t a public area? > [@](#): > > Tell me, if a woman comes into your office, do you close the door and lock the door behind her? I don’t have an office. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/244 "2017-12-07T16:46:12Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yes we do. Many of us change our behavior out of fear that we could be falsely accused of something and would have no way to defend ourselves from the false accusation. Most of the time the actual risk of that happening is extremely infinitesimally small, yet we change our behaviors to protect ourselves anyway. No big deal, you say. I can accept that > > But why are those instances rational and understandable acceptable concerns and actions while **MMM** is being mockably unacceptably irrational? I’m not sure I can do a better job of articulating the differences I see than I’ve already done. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/245 "2017-12-07T17:24:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No way, really? But there is no difference between the way I treat men and the way I treat women. Guess I’m non-sexist that way. Good for you. We’ve been through this before, so I know that you do not believe that a woman has anything more to fear from a man than a man has to fear from another man, but I do disagree with that, for what would seem to pretty much everyone, fairly obvious reasons. > [@](#): > > Your store isn’t a public area? Front reception is. And unless someone is dropping off or waiting for their dog, it is empty. Past the half door is not a public area. When you go to mcdonalds, do you barge into the back, claiming that it is a public area? > [@](#): > > I don’t have an office. And that is all that is holding you back? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/246 "2017-12-07T17:28:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not sure I can do a better job of articulating the differences I see than I’ve already done. Okay. Can’t say I’m getting it though. You acknowledge that you are actually at no significant risk: > [@LHOD](#): > > … I have very little fear of false accusations, and I think that’s reasonable … Of all the male teachers and teacher assistants and principals and custodians and such that I’ve known, in our collective centuries of time in the classroom, none of us have faced a serious false allegation of misconduct. … But because kids and parents do do other crazy things you still consider the possibility high enough of a concern to take precautions against. **MMM** OTOH does not actually believe his concern is great enough to actually change his behavior over but notes that he actually had the thought to consider it as a concern and wondered about his even thinking about it. Okay. Taking actions over something that rationally you know is not an actual significant risk worth being fearful of is rational, but considering whether or not a fear is worth changing behavior over and deciding that it is not, is irrational, mockable even. Honestly the only difference I can see is that one your small fear (that you act upon), and one is a small fear not yours and not acted upon. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/247 "2017-12-07T17:34:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And that is all that is holding you back? Back when I did have an office, I asked this: “Do you want to close the door or leave it open?” Surprisingly to you maybe, but I asked the same question to both men and women. And no, I would not be afraid of an accusation of anything from someone that was in a room with me alone with the door closed. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/248 "2017-12-07T17:45:18Z")
And some of us have a sense of fluidity in context. Like my giving a woman walking alone in a parking structure a bigger “bubble” than I would feel I would for another man. The man is less likely to be spooked by me, a short middle aged bald dude with a funny tie, walking ten feet behind him, than a woman might. Defaulting to the most cautious position for all is your take and such is reasonable. Demanding that everyone else do the same however is not reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/249 "2017-12-07T18:00:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Okay. Can’t say I’m getting it though. Read post 201 again; it’s where I answered the question to the best of my ability. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/250 "2017-12-07T18:06:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > FWIW, when I was a college freshman in 2005, all the male students had to sit in on a sexual-harassment briefing, given by the Dean himself. He told us, “If you are ever alone with a woman, and she accuses you of something, you have no defense. Society will always take the woman’s word over a man’s.” > > That was twelve years ago. I wonder what similar briefings/seminars are like today, and also 30 or 40 years ago. It’s a weird lecture to give that seems to bear no relation to the real world. The actual situation is more like ‘If you are alone with a passed out woman and start fingering her unconscious body, then get caught by multiple witnesses, you might spend three months in jail for it’. I mean, after seeing what a tiny slap on the wrist Brock Turner got for a sexual assault with witnesses, do you really think he would have gotten ANY punishment if the victim had just accused him of assaulting her without any other witnesses? He’s even appealing that tiny slap on the wrist now! ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/251 "2017-12-07T19:50:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Honestly the only difference I can see is that one your small fear (that you act upon), and one is a small fear not yours and not acted upon. That was my conclusion as well, or at least something similar: behavior I agree with is rational; behavior I don’t agree with is irrational. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/252 "2017-12-07T21:51:31Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > That was my conclusion as well, or at least something similar: behavior I agree with is rational; behavior I don’t agree with is irrational. I listed like three or four different reasons. If that’s what you got from all of them, I’m not sure how to say it any differently; it’s absolutely not a correct summary. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/253 "2017-12-08T01:50:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I listed like three or four different reasons. If that’s what you got from all of them, I’m not sure how to say it any differently; it’s absolutely not a correct summary. The purported difference is in ones opinion of the quality of the reasons. It isn’t as if the OP didn’t offer reasons too. It is simply that you dismiss those reason while you don’t dismiss your own reasons. In thinking about this I think such situations are more common than I would would like to admit. I’m sure I’ve fallen into that thinking as well. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/254 "2017-12-08T02:25:12Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Oh, gimme a break. > > I’m the father of a 10 year old boy. I’ve obviously had many times when I’ve interacted with his friends, and with random kids on the playground, and equally random schoolmates of his at school functions, like the book fair and holiday craft bazaar last night. > > Yeah, there’s some due caution you exercise (e.g. you don’t touch a kid unless it’s unavoidable, you don’t let your eyes linger on any one child who isn’t interacting with your own child, stuff like that) but other than that you act naturally and everything’s fine. I’m the father of a four-year-old girl. When taking her to the park (one of those no-adults-allowed-unaccompanied-by-children playgrounds), if she’s happily playing with her friends, I’ll sit on a bench and maybe read a book or something. More than once, I’ve been asked to leave the park by paranoid mommies who believe every man is just waiting for the chance to abduct their babies. It doesn’t help that I’m significantly older than the typical parent of a four-year-old. I’ve had them demand that I point out my child, and then had the fucking bitches accost my child and tell her to point out her daddy, so they can be satisfied that I’m not a child molester. And, of course, if I make any kind of scene and call them on their bullshit, I’m the bad guy and my poor daughter will no longer be welcome at the playground. Assuming I’m not banned forever. Everything isn’t always fine. There are stupid people out there. There are bad people who will seize any opportunity to be moralizing, puritanical amateur special cops. I hate them. And they are legion in my neck of the woods. Lots of them. Organic-food eating natural fiber wearing wives of rich men with nothing better to do than inflict themselves on ordinary people. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/255 "2017-12-08T03:07:40Z")
When the kindly paranoid mommies accost _your_ child and start harassing them like that, maybe you should be the first to call the cops on them. How do you suppose that would play? ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/256 "2017-12-08T03:09:00Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > When the kindly paranoid mommies accost _your_ child and start harassing them like that, maybe you should be the first to call the cops on them. How do you suppose that would play? Badly. Ultimately, my daughter would pay the price. I would be ostracized. We’d no longer be welcome in the park. My daughter would lose friends. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/257 "2017-12-08T04:09:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Read post 201 again; it’s where I answered the question to the best of my ability. In that post the prime reason **MMM** ’s thoughts (not precautions because he decided not to act on them) were “of no purpose” were because “the risk of a false allegation is vanishingly small” … something that as I quoted you understand is the case for false allegations against you too. Your other reasons for actually taking “a precaution”? “\*t comforts others” … if true that your students or others might be fearful of you being alone with a child then that does indeed justify action. And it justifies the inaction by MMM given a lack of a belief that the child in the movie theater or the parent is worried by his presence. But we are talking about justifying the concern about a false accusation. And of course he is being very rational not taking an action that addresses no real risk … actually taking an action in response to a risk that does not meaningfully exist - that would be irrational. Which of you is closer to doing that? Again I do not fault you your behavior. But it is in fact no _more_ rational than MMM having a fear that he rationally decides to not act upon. For the record. I kick parents out of the room for portions of early teen visits on and am alone with them for a period of time as a matter of course. Minimally I believe they should have a chance to share concerns with me that they might not feel comfortable discussing in front of mom or dad. I do not believe that parents are worried that I may be a predator as a result and I have never had a fear of false accusation. That post of yours does however highlight the conflation that has occurred in this between overlapping but different concerns. There is the question of how rational it is to be afraid of malacious false accusations, and how rational it is to change behavior due to that concern. There is having no fear of false accusation but being aware that others can be (unjustifiably) uncomfortable or fearful of you, and doing things out of consideration of that fear. There is the fear that someone will make an accusation not out of malice but out irrational fear and/or misunderstood intent, like the paranoid mothers that **Saintly Loser** has to cope with. Obviously they are not the same things but they do overlap. Still, even in overlap we should be cautious to not conflate. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/258 "2017-12-08T11:03:02Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > In that post the prime reason **MMM** ’s thoughts (not precautions because he decided not to act on them) were “of no purpose” were because “the risk of a false allegation is vanishingly small” … something that as I quoted you understand is the case for false allegations against you too. No. The risk of false allegations against an elementary school teacher is orders of magnitude greater than the risk of false allegations against someone sitting next to a child in a movie theater, **given that it has happened**. Do you disagree? It happens really rarely, but unlike what MMM describes, it happens. > [@](#): > > Your other reasons for actually taking “a precaution”? “\*t comforts others” … if true that your students or others might be fearful of you being alone with a child then that does indeed justify action. And it justifies the inaction by MMM given a lack of a belief that the child in the movie theater or the parent is worried by his presence. But we are talking about justifying the concern about a false accusation. No: I was explaining to sachertorte why my **precautions** , not my **concern** , was justified. > [@](#): > > Again I do not fault you your behavior. But it is in fact no _more_ rational than MMM having a fear that he rationally decides to not act upon. You’re changing what’s being compared from what sachertorte asked me about. In my case, failing to take these precautions would be very likely to lead to a poor outcome: I am required by district policy to take them, and I could lose my job. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/259 "2017-12-08T14:10:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No. The risk of false allegations against an elementary school teacher is orders of magnitude greater than the risk of false allegations against someone sitting next to a child in a movie theater, **given that it has happened**. Do you disagree? … I cannot say whether or not there has ever been a case of a false accusation of a stranger molesting a child in a movie theater. Even if not it is impossible to say the risk is zero - just vanishingly small. Has a second grader made a false accusation against a teacher? Middle schoolers and above sure, but a second grader? Maybe. I don’t know. But even if so the risk is so small that worrying about it is not very rational … more rational to be worried about the unknown male near a park as **Saintly Loser** ’s example mothers do. Lightening strikes happen rarely too. How close to zero does a risk need to be before worrying about ceases to be rational?\* Now malicious false accusations I know occur with _older_ students, and I am aware of sexual and other misconduct of High School teachers. Not allowing teachers to be alone with High Schoolers would make more sense maybe. Yet pretty much all my kids’ High School teachers have encouraged my kids to take advantage of coming in to see them alone before or after school when they have questions about the material. You were contrasting your taking precautions as rational to MMM’s as not taking them as not. It seemed strange to me for you to be seeming to say that MMM would have been more rational to have actually taken the precaution. Because while yeah, if parent’s are likely fearful of your being alone with their children then avoiding being alone with them might be rational, and knowing that the father in the theater is not likely fearful of him makes MMM’s choice to not act rational. By this metric his choice to not act is for sure rational, yours I am not so sure. So down to “its the policy.” Okay. Skip to that. You have no choice in the matter. Don’t bother with the rest then. The question then becomes not your actions but whether the concern that drives the policy applying to second graders is significantly more rational than MMM having a concern about false accusations. \*I think the answer is less a number than whether or not _I_ am the one worried, or someone else is. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/260 "2017-12-08T16:06:46Z")
At my old church, a 13-year-old girl who worked in our daycare accused a 4-year-old boy of touching her vagina. This was supposed to have happened in a room with an adult present and several other kids, none of whom saw anything. The 4-year-old’s mom told me that her son was probably just flailing around and, being at that level, his hand collided with that area. Nothing ever came of this that I know of, but I’d consider the little guy and his family darned lucky. I had this in mind a few months later when my neighbor lady and I were out walking our dogs. As often happens, the children from the playground came over to pet our canine companions. One of the little humans immediately turned to me, pointed at my neighbor dog, and said “That dog bit me.” My neighbor dog was a 100 lb. Rottweiler. If she had bitten him, we’d know it. So I asked the boy if she had snapped at him. He shook his head. Then, remembering church, I asked if he’d swung his hand around and scratched it against her tooth. He nodded. Again, nothing came of either of these incidents, but I’m sorry to say that “vanishingly small” is strongly related to “hasn’t happened to me yet.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295.md?page=14)