# This whole sexual accusation thing – a perspective I’ve not heard discussed **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 2, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295 "2017-12-02T02:24:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/281 "2017-12-17T04:39:02Z")
This is what’s known as “moral panic”. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/282 "2017-12-17T10:40:43Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I was just reading a thing where Alysa Milano was chastising Matt Damon for suggesting that a patt on the butt is not equivalent to rape, and that there is a spectrum when it comes to assault. His comments make perfect sense to me. I’m concerned we’re going to be taking all the risk and flirting out of human relations to the point where people are afraid to do ANYTHING that could potentially be misinterpreted. A wink for example is a far cry from sexual assault. Patting someone’s butt isn’t rape, but at least in my world, it isn’t flirtation either. I can come up behind my wife and pat or squeeze her buns because we’re in a longstanding relationship and I know she’ll like it when I do that. But if I were single, I wouldn’t dream of doing that with some woman that I was _hoping_ to be in an intimate relationship with. It’s a gesture that assumes rights or permissions to someone’s body that, if those permissions haven’t been granted, is a bit of an invasion. A minor one, sure, but nonetheless. Now that’s if it happens once. Now suppose it’s a chronic thing, where a guy pats that woman on the butt a few times a week, give or take, and this goes on for weeks. How does it feel to be the woman in that scenario? It feels pretty tense. You don’t want it to keep on happening, how to avoid it is occupying a good chunk of your thoughts, you’re increasingly uncomfortable and anxious at work - and you’re quite reasonably afraid that if you complain to someone, it’ll just get laughed off as an innocuous gesture. Geez, soandso is just a friendly guy, he doesn’t mean anything by it, and it’s no big deal anyway, amirite? If you can’t deal with this, maybe you don’t fit in here. So sure, a pat on the butt isn’t rape, but if Matt Damon thinks the pats on the butt are OK, or are sufficiently trivial that nothing should be done about them, then fuck Matt Damon and the horse he rode in on. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/283 "2017-12-17T10:53:05Z")
Yeah,but there’s “not OK” that should result in a stern talking to and “not OK” that should result in firing, and “holy shit that’s evil” that should result in criminal prosecution. Chris Matthews now has an accuser, and the allegations against him are that he made inappropriate jokes. Okay, fine, write him up, or since he’s a TV talking head, make him go on TV and grovel. But if that’s all Matthews is accused of he should not be fired. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/284 "2017-12-17T11:08:25Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I was just reading a thing where Alysa Milano was chastising Matt Damon for suggesting that a patt on the butt is not equivalent to rape, and that there is a spectrum when it comes to assault. His comments make perfect sense to me. I’m concerned we’re going to be taking all the risk and flirting out of human relations to the point where people are afraid to do ANYTHING that could potentially be misinterpreted. A wink for example is a far cry from sexual assault. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk …lets be absolutely clear on what Milano was chastising Damon for: > [@Damon](#): > > I do believe that there’s a spectrum of behavior, right? And we’re going to have to figure — you know, there’s a difference between, you know, patting someone on the butt and rape or child molestation, right? Both of those behaviors need to be confronted and eradicated without question, but they shouldn’t be conflated, right? > [@Milano](#): > > I have been a victim of each component of the sexual assault spectrum of which you speak. They all hurt. And they are all connected to a patriarchy intertwined with normalized, accepted–even welcomed-- misogyny. > > … > > We are not outraged because someone grabbed our asses in a picture. We are outraged because we were made to feel this was normal. We are outraged because we have been gaslighted. We are outraged because we were silenced for so long. Who the fuck is conflating “patting someone on the butt” with “child molestation?” That Damon thinks that: that you agree with Damon means that you guys simply aren’t listening. Milano was not chastising Matt Damon for suggesting that a patt on the butt is not equivalent to rape. She was chastising him for…well her words are better than mine, so I suggest you read them. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/285 "2017-12-17T11:18:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yeah,but there’s “not OK” that should result in a stern talking to and “not OK” that should result in firing, and “holy shit that’s evil” that should result in criminal prosecution. > > Chris Matthews now has an accuser, and the allegations against him are that he made inappropriate jokes. Okay, fine, write him up, or since he’s a TV talking head, make him go on TV and grovel. But if that’s all Matthews is accused of he should not be fired. …if Chris Matthews gets fired for only making an “inappropriate joke” then maybe you might have a point. But your post looks like “moral panic” to me. On preview: it appears you have misrepresented the Chris Matthews story entirely. The story was broken by the Daily Caller: a well known conservative website founded by Tucker Carlson. The incident happened in 1999. It was a sexual harassment case. MSNBC have said in response: "“In 1999 this matter was thoroughly reviewed and dealt with. At that time Matthews received a formal reprimand.” So this story only came to prominence because a conservative news source dug it up: MSNBC have stated that its been reviewed and dealt with. So knowing all of that (that information is in all the news broadcasts) why bring up the possibility that this might result in him getting fired? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/286 "2017-12-17T12:10:30Z")
Because “dealt with” in 1999 means “not addressed sufficiently at all” in 2017. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/287 "2017-12-17T12:47:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Because “dealt with” in 1999 means “not addressed sufficiently at all” in 2017. …the only person I’m seeing who doesn’t think it was dealt with sufficiently is you. Who is starting this moral panic again? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/288 "2017-12-17T13:20:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Milano was not chastising Matt Damon for suggesting that a patt on the butt is not equivalent to rape. She was chastising him for…well her words are better than mine, so I suggest you read them. She wasn’t saying a pat on the butt is equivalent to rape, but Matt Damon didn’t say anything in the quoted part that I would consider controversial, or requiring chastizing. He said a grope and rape or child abuse are not the same thing. Then he explicitly said, _both are wrong_. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/289 "2017-12-17T16:12:53Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > She wasn’t saying a pat on the butt is equivalent to rape, but Matt Damon didn’t say anything in the quoted part that I would consider controversial, or requiring chastizing. > > He said a grope and rape or child abuse are not the same thing. Then he explicitly said, _both are wrong_. …well duh. He said a grope and rape or child abuse are not the same thing. Thank fuck for Matt Damon! Where would we be without him to explain to all the women that not only a grope and rape or child abuse are not the same thing, but\*\* they are both wrong!\*\* I’m so glad that Matt Damon has constructively added his take to the issue. All those women can sleep easy now. Damon has spoken!!! What Matt Damon said was fucking tone deaf. There may be a difference in scale between a grope and assualt. But as Milano also says: “There are different stages of cancer. Some more treatable than others. But it’s still cancer.” From Minnie Driver: > [@Driver](#): > > “Gosh it’s so interesting (profoundly unsurprising) how men with all these opinions about women’s differentiation between sexual misconduct, assault and rape reveal themselves to be utterly tone deaf and as a result, systemically part of the problem.” > > … > > “I felt I desperately needed to say something. I’ve realised that most men, good men, the men that I love, there is a cut-off. They simply cannot understand what abuse is like on a daily level. > > “I honestly think that until we get on the same page, you can’t tell a woman about their abuse. A man cannot do that. No one can. It is so individual and so personal, it’s galling when a powerful man steps up and starts dictating the terms, whether he intends it or not.” > > … > > “There is no hierarchy of abuse – that if a woman is raped [it] is much worse than if woman has a penis exposed to her that she didn’t want or ask for … you cannot tell those women that one is supposed to feel worse than the other. > > “And it certainly can’t be prescribed by a man. The idea of tone deafness is the idea there [is] no equivalency. > > “How about: it’s all fucking wrong and it’s all bad, and until you start seeing it under one umbrella it’s not your job to compartmentalise or judge what is worse and what is not. Let women do the speaking up right now. The time right now is for men just to listen and not have an opinion about it for once.” > **[Minnie Driver: men like Matt Damon 'cannot understand what abuse is like'](https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/dec/16/minnie-driver-matt-damon-men-cannot-understand-abuse?CMP=twt_gu)** > > Actor calls former co-star’s remarks about ‘spectrum of behaviour’ in sexual misconduct ‘Orwellian’ and questions defence of disgraced comedian Louis CK ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/290 "2017-12-17T17:44:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Patting someone’s butt isn’t rape, but at least in my world, it isn’t flirtation either. I can come up behind my wife and pat or squeeze her buns because we’re in a longstanding relationship and I know she’ll like it when I do that. > > But if I were single, I wouldn’t dream of doing that with some woman that I was _hoping_ to be in an intimate relationship with. It’s a gesture that assumes rights or permissions to someone’s body that, if those permissions haven’t been granted, is a bit of an invasion. A minor one, sure, but nonetheless. > > Now that’s if it happens once. Now suppose it’s a chronic thing, where a guy pats that woman on the butt a few times a week, give or take, and this goes on for weeks. How does it feel to be the woman in that scenario? It feels pretty tense. You don’t want it to keep on happening, how to avoid it is occupying a good chunk of your thoughts, you’re increasingly uncomfortable and anxious at work - and you’re quite reasonably afraid that if you complain to someone, it’ll just get laughed off as an innocuous gesture. Geez, soandso is just a friendly guy, he doesn’t mean anything by it, and it’s no big deal anyway, amirite? If you can’t deal with this, maybe you don’t fit in here. > > So sure, a pat on the butt isn’t rape, but if Matt Damon thinks the pats on the butt are OK, or are sufficiently trivial that nothing should be done about them, then fuck Matt Damon and the horse he rode in on. What if it’s a woman patting a man on the butt? Or is that acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/291 "2017-12-17T19:41:32Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > What if it’s a woman patting a man on the butt? Or is that acceptable? We get this question a lot. It always seems like a vaguely intended “gotcha,” as if the whole argument might fall apart on the crux of this incisive question. Sorry to disappoint. No, it’s not acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/292 "2017-12-17T20:04:52Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > We get this question a lot. It always seems like a vaguely intended “gotcha,” as if the whole argument might fall apart on the crux of this incisive question. > > Sorry to disappoint. No, it’s not acceptable. I was watching colbert a few weeks ago, and he had on Justin Timberlake and Kate Winslet on on different nights to promo their new movie. When Timberlake was on, he talked about how, when he would use the bathroom in his dressing room, kate would be on the other side of the wall, and make comments about how his stream sounded, and ask him to sing a song. Winslet confirmed this on the evening she was the guest. I get that it was an amusing story and all, but I wasn’t all that comfortable with it. I do assume that if the roles were reversed, if it was Justin listening to Kate while she was urinating, and making comments and suggestions about it, it would not have been nearly such a “cute” story. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/293 "2017-12-17T20:06:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I was watching colbert a few weeks ago, and he had on Justin Timberlake and Kate Winslet on on different nights to promo their new movie. > > When Timberlake was on, he talked about how, when he would use the bathroom in his dressing room, kate would be on the other side of the wall, and make comments about how his stream sounded, and ask him to sing a song. Winslet confirmed this on the evening she was the guest. > > I get that it was an amusing story and all, but I wasn’t all that comfortable with it. > > I do assume that if the roles were reversed, if it was Justin listening to Kate while she was urinating, and making comments and suggestions about it, it would not have been nearly such a “cute” story. Oh, there are certainly double standards. It’s just that the double standards are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/294 "2017-12-17T20:41:27Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > We get this question a lot. It always seems like a vaguely intended “gotcha,” as if the whole argument might fall apart on the crux of this incisive question. > > Sorry to disappoint. No, it’s not acceptable. Whose “we”? Are you representing more than yourself? I strongly suspect the double standard is alive and well. I believe that most men would also be flattered to be hit on. That’s the problem with this whole movement is it seems to be taking the spontaneity out of human relationships. I am in NO WAY defending sexual assault, by the way. But what happens next? Is flirtation dead in the water? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/295 "2017-12-17T20:43:47Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Oh, there are certainly double standards. It’s just that the double standards are wrong. Well said. I can’t make the double standards disappear, but I can push back against them, and I do. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/296 "2017-12-17T20:47:43Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Whose “we”? Are you representing more than yourself? I strongly suspect the double standard is alive and well. I believe that most men would also be flattered to be hit on. That’s the problem with this whole movement is it seems to be taking the spontaneity out of human relationships. I am in NO WAY defending sexual assault, by the way. But what happens next? Is flirtation dead in the water? If you can’t tell the difference, then yes. I hope flirtation is dead in the water. Those who understand the difference can go about their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/297 "2017-12-17T21:18:07Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > If you can’t tell the difference, then yes. I hope flirtation is dead in the water. Those who understand the difference can go about their lives. Spoilsport. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/298 "2017-12-17T21:28:24Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Spoilsport. You know, it’s fairly horrifying to read that word in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/299 "2017-12-17T21:37:40Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Whose “we”? Are you representing more than yourself? …if you already had an answer to your question, why did you bother asking it? > [@](#): > > I strongly suspect the double standard is alive and well. I believe that most men would also be flattered to be hit on. Patting someone on the butt is **not being hit on**. And why do you believe most men would be flattered anyway? Are you representing more than yourself? You certainly do not represent me. > [@](#): > > That’s the problem with this whole movement is it seems to be taking the spontaneity out of human relationships. I am in NO WAY defending sexual assault, by the way. But what happens next? Is flirtation dead in the water? What movement? Do you mean the movement where women who have been historically sexually harassed, abused or assaulted speak out to let everybody know what happened to them? You think that these women are responsible for the death of flirting? That’s a mighty big responsibility you put on their shoulders. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295/300 "2017-12-18T00:23:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That’s a mighty big responsibility you put on their shoulders. It’s not like survivors don’t already have everything else shoved on our shoulders. Why not be responsible for the death of flirting? We’ve already been blamed for the death of millennials having sex, for attacking the right of men to initiate physical contact with women, for going on life-ruining crusades out of pure spite and all other manner of social evils. Heck, we had someone on this board blame rape survivors for putting them in the awkward position of trying to figure out who is telling the truth. Allow me to shed a tear on their behalf while I face down my seventeenth year of PTSD. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-whole-sexual-accusation-thing-a-perspective-i-ve-not-heard-discussed/803295.md?page=16)