# This young boy died because boot camps are considered "tough love" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552 "2006-04-13T18:10:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/181 "2007-10-15T17:25:40Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] And if so – where did you see this film? Can you provide a link? [/QUOTE] I’ve seen the film. And no, I’m not outraged enough to bother searching for a link. (There’s probably a link higher in this thread anyway.) The posturing of the so-called “guards” (although they really should be called “bullies”) as they surrounded & intimidated that dying young man is all the proof I need to know that they INTENDED for him to suffer, if not outright die. If the jury doesn’t see it that way…well, then yes, the jury is stupid. Gee, what a surprise that is. :rolleyes: And if you assume you know the evidence, and still feel the guards are not responsible…well, that means you’re stupid as well. Think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/182 "2007-10-15T17:41:13Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] [Quote=Beware of Doug] As I said: valuable tools of social control.So, what are you saying…you advocate the random killing of young, black males just because they’re young and black? Or do you merely support random killings? [/QUOTE] NO and NO. I repudiate boot camps completely because I think they’re more about ritual punishment than rehabilitation, and because they tempt people’s more violent natures. But I really do believe that deep down, in places they don’t talk about in church, that the pro-boot camp crowd really gets off on the authoritarian roleplaying of it all, and feels all tingly and energized at the thought of men in Smokey covers handing out whoopass to members of offender groups. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/183 "2007-10-15T21:23:18Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] I’ve seen the film. And no, I’m not outraged enough to bother searching for a link. (There’s probably a link higher in this thread anyway.) The posturing of the so-called “guards” (although they really should be called “bullies”) as they surrounded & intimidated that dying young man is all the proof I need to know that they INTENDED for him to suffer, if not outright die. If the jury doesn’t see it that way…well, then yes, the jury is stupid. Gee, what a surprise that is. :rolleyes: And if you assume you know the evidence, and still feel the guards are not responsible…well, that means you’re stupid as well. Think about it. [/QUOTE] Let’s see… You don’t have a link for the rest of us to see the evidence that you’re basing your decision on. You don’t understand the correct legal standard that the jury would need to use. Nonetheless, you’re right, and those that disagree with you are stupid. Um… …BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/184 "2007-10-15T21:50:09Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Let’s see… You don’t have a link for the rest of us to see the evidence that you’re basing your decision on. You don’t understand the correct legal standard that the jury would need to use. Nonetheless, you’re right, and those that disagree with you are stupid. Um… …BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! [/QUOTE] Give him a break. He suffers under a tremendous handicap; to wit, most folks just don’t have the mental wherewithal to keep up. [Cite.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9016825&postcount=136) > [@](#): > > A teacher once told me that I have not only a highly logical mind, but also a highly creative mind. That’s rare, because most people only have one or the other. **The practical effect, unfortunately, is that most people can only follow 50% of what I’m saying.** Emphasis mine. It is unclear whether simply reading every other word would engender a more complete understanding. I leave it to you, gentle reader, to investigate. I feel a swoon a-comin’ every time I try to wrap my head around it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/185 "2007-10-16T00:50:28Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Give him a break. He suffers under a tremendous handicap; to wit, most folks just don’t have the mental wherewithal to keep up. [Cite.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9016825&postcount=136) Emphasis mine. It is unclear whether simply reading every other word would engender a more complete understanding. I leave it to you, gentle reader, to investigate. I feel a swoon a-comin’ every time I try to wrap my head around it. [/QUOTE] Wow. Thanks for that link. I can see my hysterical laughter was not enough, by an order of magnitude or more, to really capture the appropriate reaction to **KGS**. It wasn’t the racist camp guards, **KGS**. I bet it was a mean-spirited ghost or two that killed that kid. They’re the ones to blame. I see it all now. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/186 "2007-10-16T02:05:09Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Wow. Thanks for that link. I can see my hysterical laughter was not enough, by an order of magnitude or more, to really capture the appropriate reaction to **KGS**. It wasn’t the racist camp guards, **KGS**. I bet it was a mean-spirited ghost or two that killed that kid. They’re the ones to blame. I see it all now. [/QUOTE] Thank you, **Brickface** for the reply. I can read your aura more clearly now, and…yuck! No _wonder_ you support the bullying, beating & ultimate killing of Martin Lee Anderson. You are much like those bullying guards in spirit and mind. I’d pity you, but you’d probably take that as an insult. So go drink beer with your cracker friends and talk about kicking small dogs and jerking off to _Birth of a Nation_ like you always do. That is your true nature, after all. BTW, [here’s the link you asked for.](http://www.nospank.net/anderson.htm) It was in the OP of this thread, but apparently you were too stupid and lazy to check it before spouting your mindless, senseless drivel first. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/187 "2007-10-16T11:46:36Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] Thank you, **Brickface** for the reply. I can read your aura more clearly now, and…yuck! No _wonder_ you support the bullying, beating & ultimate killing of Martin Lee Anderson. You are much like those bullying guards in spirit and mind. I’d pity you, but you’d probably take that as an insult. So go drink beer with your cracker friends and talk about kicking small dogs and jerking off to _Birth of a Nation_ like you always do. That is your true nature, after all. BTW, [here’s the link you asked for.](http://www.nospank.net/anderson.htm) It was in the OP of this thread, but apparently you were too stupid and lazy to check it before spouting your mindless, senseless drivel first. [/QUOTE] That’s the very link that was discussed at length in the rest of this thread, you idiot. The very link that I watched every second of, and provided commentary with specific references to timestamps, in my post [38](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7298840&postcount=38) in this thread. The very link that sparked the extensive discussions in this thread. The kindest inference is that you couldn’t be arsed to read the whole thread; the more likely is you’re too dim to comprehend it. As to your speculation about my “cracker” friends… you’re obviously not aware of my ethnic origins, or your slur would have been different. You did get one thing right, though. My “aura” is also disgusted with you. You picking up anything new there? My aura’s giving you the finger now. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/188 "2007-10-16T15:29:29Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] So go drink beer with your cracker friends and talk about kicking small dogs and jerking off to _Birth of a Nation_ like you always do. [/QUOTE] What’s with the constant cry of “Racism!” I asked you about this in my previous post, which you conveniently ignored. I suspect that you just refuse to back down from an indefensible position. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/189 "2007-10-16T15:40:25Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] That’s the very link that was discussed at length in the rest of this thread, you idiot. The very link that I watched every second of, and provided commentary with specific references to timestamps, in my post [38](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7298840&postcount=38) in this thread. [/quote] Alright, I’ve read your second-by-second analysis, and you missed the point entirely, jerk. All through the video, the guards are crowding, posturing, intimidating, and looming over the boy. That’s not “tough love” – that’s bullying. There are 8 guards in the video…why so many? Are they really afraid this boy might pose a physical threat? Or are they ENJOYING watching this boy suffer? I believe it’s the latter…they are basically getting their rocks off watching this boy suffer & cower in fear. That’s pure psychopathic behavior. Each time the boy collapses, the guards did not allow the nearby nurse to take his pulse, blood pressure, or check to see if his skin is cold & clammy. They ASSUMED he was faking. The boy’s race played a factor because dark-skinned people don’t turn pale when they go into shock – if the boy were caucasian (or checked the inside of his lips) they would have noticed his pallor right away. I’ll grant that they probably did not deliberately KILL the boy…after all, once they realized the Game had gone too far, and the boy wasn’t faking at all, two of the guards did run for help. By that time, however, it was too late. ☹ Didn’t the guards know about Martin Lee Anderson’s medical condition? Certainly, the nurse should have known, right? Or did the boy’s parents fail to reveal that information? If they’re guilty of anything, it would be harassment, child endangerment, and failure to render aid. You (and the jury) seem to believe that the boy would’ve died anyway if the guards had not harassed him. I doubt that’s the case. But since we can’t turn back the clock and run controlled studies to test that hypothesis…well, that’s probably what the defense lawyers argued, and they were able to emotionally sway the jury into a not-guilty decision (which speaks volumes about the sad state of our legal system, but that’s food another discussion.) > [@](#): > > The kindest inference is that you couldn’t be arsed to read the whole thread; the more likely is you’re too dim to comprehend it. I’m not arsed to read the whole thread because I have better things to do with my life. YOU, on the other hand, expended a lot of energy & time by trying to “explain away” this boy’s death. Why is this so important to you? Why must you prove TO YOURSELF that this was just a happy accident, and the guards weren’t responsible for anything? And if you investigated the video so thoroughly, time signatures & everything – why did you gloss over the whole intimidation factor? Is that sort of behavior commonplace in your world? > [@](#): > > As to your speculation about my “cracker” friends… you’re obviously not aware of my ethnic origins, or your slur would have been different. What’s your ethnic origin, then? If I’m wrong, that should be simple to disprove. > [@](#): > > My “aura” is also disgusted with you. You picking up anything new there? Oh, I picked up something new, alright. Nothing I’m going to tell _you_ about, though. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/190 "2007-10-16T16:25:18Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] What’s your ethnic origin, then? If I’m wrong, that should be simple to disprove. [/QUOTE] Oh, that one’s easy. **Bricker** is Hispanic, and unless I’m mistaken, the child of first-generation immigrants to the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/191 "2007-10-16T16:57:25Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] Oh, that one’s easy. **Bricker** is Hispanic, and unless I’m mistaken, the child of first-generation immigrants to the USA. [/QUOTE] Correct. I can arguably be a “spic,” a “beaner” or a “wetback;” a “gravelbelly,” “tomato picker,” or even a “Latrino” (one of my personal faves) but really, not so much a “cracker.” Probably **KGS** didn’t know this because my _aura_ is a Southern white dude wearing a stars-and-bars belt buckle. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/192 "2007-10-16T17:18:05Z")
So let’s review: **KGS** splutters: > [@KGS](#): > > This court decision is patently RACIST, pure and simple. And I don’t even feel outraged about it, because it’s typical of how Southern red states operate. Just a normal day. Presumably he means, in less hysterical but no less ridiculous terms, that the evidence clearly supported the criminal charges brought, but the jury chose to exercise their racism in finding the black, Asian, and white guards not guilty. But when pressed to actually point to the crimes committed, he says: > [@](#): > > All through the video, the guards are crowding, posturing, intimidating, and looming over the boy. Amazingly, the charges brought failed to include Looming in the First Degree, or Aggravated Macho Posturing. So the jury really didn’t have a chance to speak their mind on the criminal crowding, posturing, intimidating, and looming that you so cunningly discern here. In a surprising reversal of earlier claims, he then aburptly concedes: > [@](#): > > If they’re guilty of anything, it would be harassment, child endangerment, and failure to render aid. You (and the jury) seem to believe that the boy would’ve died anyway if the guards had not harassed him. I doubt that’s the case. Yet that’s exactly what the jury likely determined – and your “doubt” comment speaks worlds, since the jury doesn’t have to be convinced the guards were innocent, or even probably guilty. They must believe _beyond a reasonable doubt_ that the guards were guilty of manslaughter in order to convict on manslaughter. “I doubt they were innocent,” as long as the doubt is a reasonable one, means they MUST be found not guilty. In essence, you’ve just validated the jury finding. You racist, you. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/193 "2007-10-16T17:45:21Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Correct. I can arguably be a “spic,” a “beaner” or a “wetback;” a “gravelbelly,” “tomato picker,” or even a “Latrino” (one of my personal faves) but really, not so much a “cracker.” [/QUOTE] I did not call YOU anything. I only accused your FRIENDS of being crackers. You then replied: > [@Bricker](#): > > …you’re obviously not aware of my ethnic origins, or your slur would have been different. Fine, I was wrong about the ethnicity of your friends. Sorry about that. It’s natural for birds of a feather to flock together, there’s nothing inherently racist about that. (Xenophobic perhaps, but not necessarily racist.) But this racial issue is a deliberate straw man on your part. This ain’t about racial origins, it’s about attitude & misbehavior. The guards in the video are multi-ethnic, yet they did not see the kid as human. They saw him as a punching bag, someone to vandalize and torture. When the Game went too far, they tried to cover their own asses…and they succeeded. God bless American Justice! :rolleyes: I can only assume, since you’ve gone to TREMENDOUS lengths to justify the guards’ actions, that you fully support their sociopathic, bullying behavior. Either that, or you’re guilty of [transference](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference), a defense mechanism to explain away whatever victimization you received earlier in life, whether it was racially motivated or not. Poor you. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/194 "2007-10-16T17:52:35Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] But this racial issue is a deliberate straw man on your part. This ain’t about racial origins, it’s about attitude & misbehavior. [/QUOTE] No, you _fucking_ moron. It was you that posted the following. > [@KGS](#): > > If Rodney King couldn’t get a fair trial in an overwhelmingly Democratic state (California) despite clear-cut visual evidence which was broadcast all around the world…what chance does some anonymous African-American teenager have in Florida?? > > This court decision is patently RACIST, pure and simple. And I don’t even feel outraged about it, because it’s typical of how Southern red states operate. Just a normal day. You brought up the race issue. You were called on it. Proving somebody’s core argument is patently wrong does not constitute a straw man. You even used the word “racist” in all caps. You can’t back away from it now. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/195 "2007-10-16T17:52:53Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] But this racial issue is a deliberate straw man on your part. This ain’t about racial origins, it’s about attitude & misbehavior. The guards in the video are multi-ethnic, yet they did not see the kid as human. They saw him as a punching bag, someone to vandalize and torture. When the Game went too far, they tried to cover their own asses…and they succeeded. God bless American Justice! :rolleyes: [/quote] You were the one to bring race into the argument, both with respect to the jury’s motives and with respect to my personal life. Now that the issue in my personal life has been shown to be misplaced, if not outright in error, you say it’s a deliberate straw man on my part. Perhaps my aura controlled your mind and MADE you bring it up, eh? No, no – don’t tell me. The aura is ALSO a straw man. (Kind of a misty straw man I imagine?) > [@](#): > > I can only assume, since you’ve gone to TREMENDOUS lengths to justify the guards’ actions, that you fully support their sociopathic, bullying behavior. Either that, or you’re guilty of [transference](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference), a defense mechanism to explain away whatever victimization you received earlier in life, whether it was racially motivated or not. Poor you. No, and if you’d read the rest of the thread, you’d know the answer to that question too. If you’re too lazy – excuse me, if you have too much of a life to read the damn thread, perhaps you could refrain from commenting on it. And if I need psychological advice, I’ll talk to my bartender, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/196 "2007-10-16T17:55:42Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] And if I need psychological advice, I’ll talk to my bartender, thanks. [/QUOTE] What can I get ya? The usual? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/197 "2007-10-16T18:07:55Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] What can I get ya? The usual? [/QUOTE] After this?!? Make it a double. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/198 "2007-10-16T18:29:38Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] You even used the word “racist” in all caps. You can’t back away from it now. [/QUOTE] Yes, I called the court decision racist, and I stand by that assertion. In fact, I would go further to accuse the prosecution of deliberately derailing the case by NOT charging the guards with lesser crimes (child endangerment, failure to render aid, etc.) and instead focusing on manslaughter charges which they knew would be dismissed by the jury. Not really a conspiracy, just the way our legal system works – _especially_ in the Florida panhandle. So be it. Nothing to see here, move along. [QUOTE=Bricker] If you’re too lazy – excuse me, if you have too much of a life to read the damn thread, perhaps you could refrain from commenting on it. [/QUOTE] You know what? That’s the smartest thing you said all week. C’ya, and have a drink on me, good buddy. (And for Chrissakes, [get your aura healed!](http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/women_healing_methods/30124) That negative energy will drain you dry!) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/199 "2007-10-16T18:43:14Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] (And for Chrissakes, [get your aura healed!](http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/women_healing_methods/30124) That negative energy will drain you dry!) [/QUOTE] Thanks for the advice, but my wife has a method that slightly resembles this, and it’s much more fun. Perhaps tonight I will endeavor to get her to use it on me. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/200 "2007-10-16T19:05:12Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Thanks for the advice, but my wife has a method that slightly resembles this, and it’s much more fun. Perhaps tonight I will endeavor to get her to use it on me. [/QUOTE] Hey, whatever works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552.md?page=11)