# This young boy died because boot camps are considered "tough love" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552 "2006-04-13T18:10:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/61 "2006-04-14T20:07:46Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > So, if the evidence supports the instructors beating the kid to death, then you support it. … Ummm… what? ---
**Author:** ![Sharky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sharky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sharky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/62 "2006-04-15T00:27:27Z")
Wow, there sure is a lot of misinformation in this thread. As a local and a friend of a few people in the Bay County Sheriff’s Office, I am very familiar with the details of this case, and would like to set the record straight. Please consider these facts before you rush to make judgement on the BCSO Juvenile Offender Boot Camp program or its instructors or the Medical Examiner for this district. The offender who died was not the innocent schoolboy that the press and the OP have depicted. He had an extensive criminal record, and was sentenced to Boot Camp as a last resort measure to attempt to rehabilitate him. The pathologist (Baden) who is claiming that the second autopsy proved that Anderson died as the result of a “beating” by the instructors, was not the M.E. who actually performed the second autopsy, he was an observer _hired by the family_. The _official_ results of the second autopsy have not yet been released, and any results reported by outsiders is purely speculation. It’s interesting to note that even before the first autopsy, Anderson’s family (who up until the incident had basically abandoned this kid, leaving him in his grandmother’s care) demanded a 10 million dollar “settlement” from the state “to avoid a lawsuit”. I suggest that the Florida State Legislators who have made outrageous public accusations have done so for political gain, and no other valid reason, and that the national press has spun the story to enhance its sensationalism. Before anyone dislocates their shoulder waving their fist in righteous indignation, I suggest that they do a little research and get their facts straight. The full story, along with copies of emails from the Medical Examiner, is available on the [Panama City News Herald website](http://http://www.newsherald.com/). There is also a St. Petersburg (FL) Times article [here](http://http://www.sptimes.com/2006/02/18/State/Medical_examiner_stan.shtml) with the Medical Examiner’s (Dr. Charles Siebert, who performed the first autopsy) point of view and comments. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/63 "2006-04-15T00:56:50Z")
Sorry, Bricker. ‘It’ being prosecution. You’re basically taking a lot of words to relay ‘wait and see’, and the way you assemble them makes you seem as if you’re defending murderers. Am I wrong, here? ---
**Author:** ![Sharky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sharky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sharky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/64 "2006-04-15T00:57:15Z")
I seem to have goofed up the links in my previous post. Let’s try again: [Panama City News Herald website](http://www.newsherald.com/) [St. Petersburg Times article](http://www.sptimes.com/2006/02/18/State/Medical_examiner_stan.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/65 "2006-04-15T01:10:28Z")
I’m strongly opposed to boot camps. Bullying (as opposed to challenging) a troubled a youth is a dumb thing to do. That being said, there is nothing in the video that indicated that the youth was beaten or otherwise treated in a manner that might physically injure him, let alone kill him. There may have been negligence somewhere along the line, or there may have been an assault that was not captured on video, but all of this is conjecture at this time. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/66 "2006-04-15T01:22:33Z")
> [@Sharky](#): > > …The offender who died was not the innocent schoolboy that the press and the OP have depicted. He had an extensive criminal record, and was sentenced to Boot Camp as a last resort measure to attempt to rehabilitate him… And how is this relevant, exactly? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Sharky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sharky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sharky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/67 "2006-04-15T02:00:42Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > And how is this relevant, exactly? > > CMC fnord! Points to news media sensationalism. Admittedly it is perhaps not relevant at all. I would also like to say that in my opinion it is indeed a tragedy that this young man died, and it is disturbing that it took so long for the instructors and the nurse to realize that they had mistaken the offender’s struggling as resistance and defiance and not as signs of a serious medical problem, delaying treatment which may (or may not) have saved his life. But accusations of “murder” are way out of line. As for the nurse, those who know her have said that she is very distraught over the incident and is actually a very caring person who has a reputation of professionalism and quality care, and a possible reason for her reluctance to interfere in the situation was due to being intimidated by the actions of the instructors as they attempted to control the offender. You would be enlightened if you heard the instructors’ side of the story, and I wish I could present it to you here but I’m reluctant to relate their statements without citation as it would merely be hearsay. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/68 "2006-04-15T02:42:42Z")
> [@](#): > > **Rick Jay** : We’re not talking about summer camps where kids swim and play in the forest. **GusNSpot** was talking about exactly that and I made reference to his comment. You and **LHOD** both misunderstood my point. Obviously, I was unclear. I do not support brutal “boot camps.” **LHOD** , so you think it is going to be simple for the courts to determine which camps are too tough for teens? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/69 "2006-04-15T03:48:22Z")
Not to get picky, but I have to object to the use of the words “Tough Love”. As a volunteer coordinator for Toughlove (a copyrighted name in several variations, by the way) I quote our [website](http://toughlove.com/faq.asp): **Is Toughlove affiliated with any boot camps or military schools?** _No. Toughlove is not in anyway affiliated with any boot camps. Nor do we align with the bootcamps’ philosophies. Toughlove is a loving, caring, family oriented solution. Often the press will use the term “tough love” loosely, but unless it describes our very own program, it’s a misuse of who we are._ Okay. Nitpick over. Continue with the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/70 "2006-04-15T04:11:47Z")
> [@Queuing](#): > > I think this thread has been hijacked, and the hijacking is in quite poor taste. What they call these things, be them boot camps-summer camps-basketball school really has no bearing on the OP, and the point she was trying to make (I think). On the contrary, it has massive implications for the OP. “Boot camp” means basic military training; that’s what just about any American you say “boot camp” to will assume you’re talking about. That’s a federal institution which directly affects a very large number of people. This, apparently, is about some county in Florida. Tragic? Yes. Awful? Yes. Relevant to my life? No, I’ve spent a total of maybe three days in Florida and I plan to never enter that state’s boundaries again if I have any say in the matter. If you ask me, the more basic, underlying tragedy is that 14 year olds are sent to anything resembling police/military/sheriff training–especially as a punishment. If I could choose to change something about the state of Florida or East Panama Whatever County based on this story, I would make 18 the minimum age for entry into the training program. The reason there’s an argument about the words “boot camp” is because it makes a huge difference as to how the story is perceived. Somebody may not have time to read the thread–and not have heard of the story because it’s about some county government in Florida–and only see the title, “This young boy died because boot camps are considered ‘tough love’”. Then they go to all of their friends and tell them somebody died in military basic training. It’s just a rumor mill, but it makes a massive mistake, on the level of confusing a City Council election with a U.S. Senate election. I hope a mod comes by and changes the title to reflect the specific locale of this tragedy and minimize confusion. Your post is full of vitriol for everyone who’s not you. Sorry, **Queuing** , but “boot camp” means something entirely different from Panama Whatever County Sheriff Torture Camp, and that’s important; I too can hardly make out any human victim or crime in the video. That said, I couldn’t agree with you more regarding your assessment of the training camp. > [@LilCutie](#): > > 1. Panama City actually does have a military base. Tyndall Air Force Base, although this has little relevance to my OP. Sounds familiar, now that you mention it. But there’s no boot camp there, as the Air Force’s only basic training base is in Texas. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/71 "2006-04-15T04:29:45Z")
> [@fetus](#): > > Sorry, **Queuing** , but “boot camp” means something entirely different from Panama Whatever County Sheriff Torture Camp, and that’s important Actually, you’re wrong. The name of the program is the Department of Juvenile Justice Boot Camp Program. It is a Florida program, altho there are similiar programs in approximately 30 other states. The first program of this type was in Georgia in 1983. It is not something that is misleading or unknown to the masses in the US. > [@fetus](#): > > If you ask me, the more basic, underlying tragedy is that 14 year olds are sent to anything resembling police/military/sheriff training–especially as a punishment. If I could choose to change something about the state of Florida or East Panama Whatever County based on this story, I would make 18 the minimum age for entry into the training program. To clarify, since you seem to not have read the posts in this thread or to have even the vaguest knowledge about this form of corrective punishment meted out by over half of the states in the union… this isn’t where 14 year old kids go to learn how to be sheriffs, it is a correctional program for convicted youth offenders where the emphasis is (supposedly) on discipline and rigourous physical exertion, with military-like rules. Next time you feel the need to have an opinion, read more than the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/72 "2006-04-15T04:30:37Z")
I seem to have made an error; I thought Panama City was out of the country, and not in Florida. Thus, this ‘boot camp’ must have some standards to follow. That said, after careful viewing of the video, I do see what appear to be some blows to the abdomen. ---
**Author:** ![Sharky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sharky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sharky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/73 "2006-04-15T04:36:59Z")
In the interest of fighting ignorance, here is some information about the Juvenile Offender Boot Camp program in Polk County, which is very similar to the former Bay County (Panama City) program. [http://www.polksheriff.org/detention/bootcamp.html](http://www.polksheriff.org/detention/bootcamp.html) > [@](#): > > The boot camps facility takes boys, ages 14 to 18, who have been adjudicated guilty by a judge. The program places an emphasis on the safety of Polk County citizens by removing juvenile offenders from the general population and into incarceration. > > The curriculum component factors include rigorous military-style physical training with educational instruction, vocational training, and psychological counseling. The boot camp experience lasts a total of twelve months: six months in boot camp followed by three months of on-site transition followed by three months of closely monitored aftercare. > > Mission: To provide a balanced approach that changes the criminal beliefs and behavior of the offenders, increases public safety, provides department and offender accountability, and afford opportunity for youth to develop into responsible citizens. > > Aftercare: To include psychological assistance, provide community-based options, solutions, and supervision. The community solutions include a mentoring program with the assistance of private service organizations, job training skills, and employment when appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/74 "2006-04-15T05:58:18Z")
Link to what I believe is the full [video](http://www.newsherald.com/bootcamp/video.shtml).[ > [@](#): > > …Medical Examiner Dr. Charles Siebert’s controversial finding that Anderson died from complications due to sickle cell trait, a genetic blood disorder, has been debated for more than a week. Siebert said drill instructors aggravated the undiagnosed disorder by pushing Anderson beyond his physical limit, then put additional stress on his system with their handling of him. > > Siebert found that Anderson’s red blood cells deformed under the ongoing stress, preventing the normal flow of oxygen to his organs and eventually causing internal bleeding that led to his death… ]([http://headlinesupdate.fec.mhe.viapointe.com/archiveLinks/newsherald.php?aID=141](http://headlinesupdate.fec.mhe.viapointe.com/archiveLinks/newsherald.php?aID=141)) Panama City, FL, The News Herald’s, [Boot Camp Archives](http://www.newsherald.com/online/boot_camp_archives.shtml) Hmm, methinks this case is about eggshells. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/75 "2006-04-15T11:17:02Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Sorry, Bricker. ‘It’ being prosecution. You’re basically taking a lot of words to relay ‘wait and see’, and the way you assemble them makes you seem as if you’re defending murderers. > > Am I wrong, here? Yes, you are. Completely wrong. I’m not so much saying wait and see as I am saying that the proponent of any claim bears the burden of proof. Right now, we don’t seem to have any evidence at all of criminal wrongdoing. I am saying “wait and see” only in the same sense that I’d say let’s “wait and see” if Senator Reid is a serial arsonist. It’s certainly possible that evidence will develop that shows he’s a serial arsonist, but right now, there isn’t any reliable evidence to show such a thing. I’m not defending murderers. I’m saying you haven’t shown me any evidence that a murder exists. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/76 "2006-04-15T11:18:03Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I seem to have made an error; I thought Panama City was out of the country, and not in Florida. Thus, this ‘boot camp’ must have some standards to follow. That said, after careful viewing of the video, I do see what appear to be some blows to the abdomen. At what timestamp point? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/77 "2006-04-15T14:01:27Z")
A: Aw, man. I don’t want to watch that freaking thing again. B: Bricker, the way you phrase your words makes it seem to a second party as _if_ you are defending murderers, as opposed to taking a ‘wait and see’ approach. And when I say ‘defending murderers’, I mean ‘acting as legal counsel for the defense.’ ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/78 "2006-04-15T14:46:43Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > A: Aw, man. I don’t want to watch that freaking thing again. > B: Bricker, the way you phrase your words makes it seem to a second party as _if_ you are defending murderers, as opposed to taking a ‘wait and see’ approach. And when I say ‘defending murderers’, I mean ‘acting as legal counsel for the defense.’ Why would a second party reach that conclusion? Any fair-minded person, faced with the evidence presented thus far, should reach the same conclusion. What evidence exists right now for any person to reach a fair conclusion otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/79 "2006-04-15T16:47:44Z")
(I’m going to watch the video again. I just really don’t like watching people die.) Bricker, you havn’t reached a conclusion at all. Just equivocated until more evidence is presented. That seems to be the most accurate position to take, but you have presented yourself as if you have come to a conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/80 "2006-04-15T17:14:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why would a second party reach that conclusion? Any fair-minded person, faced with the evidence presented thus far, should reach the same conclusion. What evidence exists right now for any person to reach a fair conclusion otherwise? How about the _ **fact** _ that it took those **animals** all of 40 minutes to realize that the kid they were obviously manhandling was **dying** and not refusing to continue to exercise? Abu Ghraib is only that much easier to understand. And you should be oh so proud, **Bricker** , of living in an increasingly fascist nation since you’re an obvious advocate of same. Congrats… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552.md?page=5)