# This young boy died because boot camps are considered "tough love" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552 "2006-04-13T18:10:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/141 "2006-04-20T15:48:37Z")
[QUOTE=SteveG1] I don’t know about that. Isn’t assault and battery still illegal? [/QUOTE] Sure. But while I’m guilty of assault and battery if I swat you on the ass without your permission, I’m not guilty if I swat my kid on the ass without his permission. Prison guards are not guilty of assault and battery if they pick up a recalcitrant, passively resisting prisoner and apply painful pressure holds, or even strike him, in order to get him to move. Two kinds of _privilege_ to commit assault existed here: _police conduct_ and _parental discipline_. In order to get past the hurdle of _privilege_, you have to show that the use of force was unreasonable for the situation. The accused will try to show that his use of force was reasonable. Testimony from similarly situated guards about how they handle resistance from inmates will undoubtedly be offered to show that the guards’ conduct here was not beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/142 "2006-04-20T17:15:28Z")
Thanks there. I can’t tell from the video that was originally cited, WHAT was going on. So, I tried to stay off the “hang the guards” bandwagon. Still I see your point. Cops and guards have to be authorized to use physical force when needed. Otherwise it becomes a Monty Python situation “Stop or I will yell stop again”. Still, I feel bad for the kid and his family. I have the feeling of “something should be changed” but have no idea what. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/143 "2006-04-20T21:28:54Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] When the incidence of the problem is one in _five hundred_ African Americans, per Daniel’s link, you believe it’s so obviously necessary for a camp to medically test each person for the condition, such that failure to do so is negligence? [/QUOTE] One in five hundred is pretty significant in the scienctific community. If General Mills put cyanide instead of whole wheat in one of every five hundred boxes of Wheaties, would you eat Wheaties? If one of every five hundred airline flights crashed, would you fly? If not, why? Since it is so infrequent as to be negligible. It would be relevant to know how soon, or how often, this boot camp, or teen boot camps overall, induct 500 African Americans, and what is acceptable in terms of putting them at risk with an extreme physical regimen. One of three events, regarding his condition, took place prior to Anderson’s death: 1. The camp did not attain subject’s relevent medical history because; a. They did not ask b. They asked but the subject did not know, forgot or refused to tell them c. They did not medically test him because; [INDENT]I. They do not have facility to medically test a subject II. They have facility but they neglected or refused to test subject III. The subject refused to be tested[/INDENT] 2. The camp did attain the subject’s relevant medical history by any such means. 3. The guards exposed subject to a physically demanding regimen with or without them having knowledge of subject’s unique biological impairment. If they had knowledge of such, and refused to act when subject was in clear physical distress, I don’t think anyone could argue against gross negligence. If they did not have knowledge of such, then at least the possibility of negligence still exists as outlined above; to wit: They should have at least attempted to attain a relevant medical history. You imply 1 in 500 is statistically insignificant. I express that if it were statistically insignificant, this thread would not exist. Maybe he didn’t die from a sickle cell event. Maybe he doesn’t even have the abnormality. I don’t know. I don’t think anyone in this thread knows much about this incident or subsequent case. But it has been intimated in at least one news article that he does have the disease and that extreme physical exertion triggered a sickle event (cite forthcoming). And even if he doesn’t have sickle cell (trait), or didn’t die from same, my argument still stands, just for somebody else, somewhere. > [@](#): > > If your claim of 12% had actually been the case, I’d have agreed with you. But I do not believe there are too many juries that would find the failure to medically test for a medical condition that appears once in every five hundred African Americans is per se negligent. As I said above, I made an error. But not an error of thought, merely an error in typing. My original posit was with 8.3% (1 in 12) and 0.2% (1 in 500)\* in mind. I merely mistated the numbers. > [@](#): > > I’d be very curious – can you offer up any case law examples where the failure to allow for a 500-to-1 chance in any circumstance was considered per se negligence? I’d be willing to be educated, but right now I have to suspect you’re defending this claim because you made it when you thought the number was different and you’re unwilling to concede the collapse of your point, even though the numbers on which you relied to make your point have drastically changed I guess I could input “500-to-1” or “1 in 500” or “500/1” into a Westlaw search and see what comes up. Nah. I think I’ll do something exponentially more fruitfull; like seal my eyelids with a cauterizing iron. \*I’ve actually seen the ratio reported as high as 1 in 400 and as low as 1 in 650. For comparison, the Caucasion rate (generally) is 1 to 58,000. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/144 "2006-04-20T22:48:52Z")
[QUOTE=Mince] If they had knowledge of such, and refused to act when subject was in clear physical distress, I don’t think anyone could argue against gross negligence. [/quote] I absolutely agree. Of course, there is no evidence of this. But if it were to develop that they knew, then that’s obviously negligence. > [@](#): > > If they did not have knowledge of such, then at least the possibility of negligence still exists as outlined above; to wit: They should have at least attempted to attain a relevant medical history. I agree again. And I am willing to bet that they have some process in place to get some sort of medical history. But I agree that if they don’t, then THAT is negligence. There’s no evidence for that in front of us, though. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/145 "2006-04-21T00:58:11Z")
**Bricker** , Animosity and law aside if you would, please. How would _ **you** _ react if you saw your child beeing beaten that way for taking your Mom’s car for a spin? And I mean not just watching a video but physically being there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/146 "2006-04-21T01:45:05Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] **Bricker** , Animosity and law aside if you would, please. How would _ **you** _ react if you saw your child beeing beaten that way for taking your Mom’s car for a spin? And I mean not just watching a video but physically being there. [/QUOTE] There was an episode of _Happy Days_ in which Richie is being bothered by a bully. He tries verious strategies to get the bully to lay off, but to no avail. It loks like the only choice is to fight the bully. Finally, he asks Fonzie for advice. “Fonz,” he says, “What would you do if you were in my situation?” “Richie,” The Fonz replies, “I wouldn’t BE in your situation.” I feel I must invoke the Fonz’s words of wisdom in response to your question. I don’t believe I would choose to commit my child to a boot camp in the first place. And the kid in this case did not simply take Grandma’s car “for a spin.” He stole and crashed the car. But that wasn’t why he was in the boot camp. He was given probation for the car theft. and then arrested for trespassing - a crime itself, AND violation of his probation. It was in response to this second offense that the kid was given the boot camp sentence. If I saw this being done to my child, I’d step in and stop it. But I also intend to raise my child in such a way that he doesn’t steal cars and violate probation. And if, in the event that despite my parenting, my child turns out to be the sort of kid that steals cars and violates probation, I would not agree to a boot camp. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/147 "2006-04-21T02:17:12Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] And if, in the event that despite my parenting, my child turns out to be the sort of kid that steals cars and violates probation, I would not agree to a boot camp. [/QUOTE] Why not? I mean, it’s not an over-the-top punishment for a child who steals a car, right? And if you’re kids in the criminal justice system, you’re probably not making very good disciplinary decisions, right? So maybe it would be best to let the sheriffs have a crack at him. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/148 "2006-04-21T03:52:36Z")
I watched your video and gave you an honest run. Sorry, but I’m not outraged. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/149 "2006-04-21T04:22:37Z")
I really didn’t see any severe abuse. I was expecting to see a gang style beatdown with the kid eventually going limp. But I really didn’t see any of that. Usually they just move them to places like Jamaica which have different rules for child abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/150 "2006-04-21T14:19:02Z")
[QUOTE=Mince] One in five hundred is pretty significant in the scienctific community. If General Mills put cyanide instead of whole wheat in one of every five hundred boxes of Wheaties, would you eat Wheaties? If one of every five hundred airline flights crashed, would you fly? \ [/quote] That’s a spurious argument. We can’t and won’t live our lives wrapped in bubble wrap because there are chances that dangerous things might happen. > [@](#): > > You imply 1 in 500 is statistically insignificant. I express that if it were statistically insignificant, this thread would not exist. Maybe he didn’t die from a sickle cell event. Maybe he doesn’t even have the abnormality. I don’t know. I don’t think anyone in this thread knows much about this incident or subsequent case. But it has been intimated in at least one news article that he does have the disease and that extreme physical exertion triggered a sickle event (cite forthcoming). And even if he doesn’t have sickle cell (trait), or didn’t die from same, my argument still stands, just for somebody else, somewhere.\ As I said in an earlier post, Florida is one of 40 states that routinely tests all newborns for Sickle Cell Disease. It _is_ being taken seriously by The System. If there is any negligence here, it might be that the Boot Camp didn’t take a medical history. If they did, then the negligence falls back on the kid and the parents for not telling them he had Sickle Cell Trait, or not getting the kid tested if they didn’t know. If you live in a community that has a problem as prevalent as Sickle Cell Anemia, you have some responsibility for your own health to find out if you and your family have it or not, especially when the testing is so readily available. As I also mentioned in an earlier post, and you could know already if you had read the linked autopsy report, the kid died from a Sickle Cell event. He had Sickle Cell Trait. It is stated very clearly in the autopsy. He was _not_ showing evidence of being beaten to death. ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/151 "2006-04-21T15:43:12Z")
So it’s all right for them to beat the kids up as long as they don’t hurt them too badly? Never mind exactly how the boy here died. I find it incredible – and not in a good way – that they seem to feel like they are allowed to punch and kick the kids. I can see restraining them, but not hitting them. I’m completely lost as to how this is acceptable, death or no death. ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/152 "2006-04-21T16:05:45Z")
[QUOTE=featherlou] As I also mentioned in an earlier post, and you could know already if you had read the linked autopsy report, the kid died from a Sickle Cell event. He had Sickle Cell Trait. It is stated very clearly in the autopsy. He was _not_ showing evidence of being beaten to death. [/QUOTE] Isn’t the original autopsy report being questioned based on an alleged relationship between the coroner who did the work and the head of the facility? ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/153 "2006-04-21T16:36:47Z")
Two links to back up my post. [cite](http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/03/14/ap2594644.html) [cite](http://www.thewestsidegazette.com/News/article/article.asp?NewsID=67368&sID=4) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/154 "2006-04-21T16:46:37Z")
Not sure why the defenders of this barbaric act keep referring to “death by natural causes” as reported in the original autopsy as if that is an undisputed fact. Although I don’t believe the results of the second autopsy have been completed/released yet, no less an authority than famous forensic pathologist with impeccable credentials, [Dr Michael Baden](http://www.practicalhomicide.com/bio/bioBADEN.htm), disputes the findings of the first. He had this to say: > [@](#): > > Siebert later ruled that Anderson died of sickle cell trait, a common but rarely deadly blood disorder. **A nationally known pathologist, Dr. Michael Baden, said after observing a second autopsy that Anderson likely was suffocated during the confrontation at the camp.** Results of the second autopsy haven’t been completed. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/155 "2006-04-21T16:48:22Z")
PS-Link to quote: [NAACP: Boot camp withheld details](http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Florida/floSTAT01033006.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/156 "2006-04-21T18:45:00Z")
In this morning’s news, the head of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (and former Bay County Sheriff) has resigned over the case. FDLE’s investigators had previously been removed from the case because Tunnel had sent emails defending the camp (which he “founded”) and discussing attempts to suppress the longer version of the video. What a shit. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/157 "2006-04-21T19:49:58Z")
[QUOTE=featherlou] …As I also mentioned in an earlier post, and you could know already if you had read the linked autopsy report, the kid died from a Sickle Cell event. He had Sickle Cell Trait. It is stated very clearly in the autopsy. He was _not_ showing evidence of being beaten to death. [/QUOTE] No, he was exercised to death,[ > [@](#): > > …Medical Examiner Dr. Charles Siebert’s controversial finding that Anderson died from complications due to sickle cell trait, a genetic blood disorder, has been debated for more than a week. Siebert said drill instructors aggravated the undiagnosed disorder by pushing Anderson beyond his physical limit, then put additional stress on his system with their handling of him. > > Siebert found that Anderson’s red blood cells deformed under the ongoing stress, preventing the normal flow of oxygen to his organs and eventually causing internal bleeding that led to his death… ]([http://headlinesupdate.fec.mhe.viapointe.com/archiveLinks/newsherald.php?aID=141](http://headlinesupdate.fec.mhe.viapointe.com/archiveLinks/newsherald.php?aID=141))[ > [@](#): > > …District Medical Examiner Dr. Charles F. Siebert Jr., who conducted the first autopsy, ruled that the 14-year-old’s death was related not to internal injuries sustained as a result of the severe beating he received at the hands of over a half-dozen guards, but, rather to excessive exercising which touched off an unexpected “blood reaction” caused by his “sickle cell trait.” > > “It was a natural death,” stated Siebert, who was appointed by Gov. Jeb Bush to Medical Examiner District 14 (Panama City) on July 2, 2004. “The [sickle cell] trait caused red blood cells to sickle and change shape, causing a whole cascade of events that led to bleeding and hemorrhaging.”… ]([http://www.thewestsidegazette.com/News/article/article.asp?NewsID=67368&sID=4](http://www.thewestsidegazette.com/News/article/article.asp?NewsID=67368&sID=4) )and somehow, that makes it OK. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/158 "2006-04-21T19:51:40Z")
Link for second quote, [http://www.thewestsidegazette.com/News/article/article.asp?NewsID=67368&sID=4](http://www.thewestsidegazette.com/News/article/article.asp?NewsID=67368&sID=4) ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/159 "2006-04-21T19:57:45Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] It’s all that propaganda about how the military teaches people “discipline”. In reality, it teaches obedience to one’s commander, not discipline; soldiers out from under a superiors thumb have never been known for discipline. [/QUOTE] I know what you’re talking about with the wild soldier behavior on leave. But anecdotal evidence is widespread that the military has turned around many people from their immature or criminal ways. I know my brother was much more grown up when he came back from his 6 months in Army basic and other training. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2006, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/160 "2006-04-22T01:32:12Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] It’s all that propaganda about how the military teaches people “discipline”. In reality, it teaches obedience to one’s commander, not discipline; soldiers out from under a superiors thumb have never been known for discipline. [/QUOTE] You wouldn’t happen to have any actual proof of that malarkey you’re spouting, would you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552.md?page=9)