# This young boy died because boot camps are considered "tough love" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552 "2006-04-13T18:10:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/161 "2006-04-22T02:36:29Z")
[QUOTE=crowmanyclouds] No, he was exercised to death\[/COLOR] [/QUOTE] No, he wasn’t. Based on the autopsy report that is linked in this thread (and I will be interested in reading the second autopsy report when it becomes available, but it doesn’t look like it is yet, so it’s kind of moot for this discussion), he died because he had Sickle Cell Trait, which can manifest itself as sudden ideopathic death upon exercise. In other words, the same amount of exercise in a similar kid without Sickle Cell Trait would not have killed the kid. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/162 "2006-04-22T14:44:01Z")
[QUOTE=Cardinal] I know what you’re talking about with the wild soldier behavior on leave. But anecdotal evidence is widespread that the military has turned around many people from their immature or criminal ways. I know my brother was much more grown up when he came back from his 6 months in Army basic and other training. [/QUOTE] Very true. Some people need to get away from the neighborhod and family, in order to get their heads right. There are some of us who were quite happy in the military… It was a nice change for me (for example). I was no criminal, but I was immature in some ways. I was no longer treated like a stupid kid 1. who didn’t know anything 2. wasn’t worth listening to 3. was told what to think and what opinions to have 4. was never taken at his word. In the Army, I was respected, my word was good, I was trusted with responsibilities (appropriate for my rank of E5), and was able to do my work, see the results, and feel pride in things well done. Despite the differences of rank and authority, there was a feeling of equality and respect. Maybe I’m looking through the rose colored glasses of nostalgia, but it took a lot of convincing from the family to NOT re-up. Needless to say, when I got back, there was a huge shakeup and some harsh words. I was an adult and was not going to be treated as a child any longer. After it settled down, my family and I got along great. ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/163 "2006-05-05T18:43:11Z")
From [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) Medical examiner: Guards suffocated teenager at boot camp (CNN) – A Florida medical examiner has determined that the teen who died at a state boot camp was suffocated by guards who were restraining him. (Posted 2:23 p.m.) > **[CNN.com - Friday, May 5 - May 6, 2006](https://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/05/05/friday/index.html)** ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/164 "2006-05-05T19:15:54Z")
Have criminal charges been filed yet? Or is this just going to fall through the cracks? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/165 "2006-05-05T20:23:36Z")
[QUOTE=SteveG1] Have criminal charges been filed yet? Or is this just going to fall through the cracks? [/QUOTE] Given that the governor [ordered the investigation that led to the second autopsy](http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Boot-Camp-Death.html?hp&ex=1146888000&en=c28ef6d735c8cf6a&ei=5094&partner=homepage), this seems very unlikely to go away. Daneil ---
**Author:** ![Sharky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sharky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sharky)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/166 "2006-05-06T04:24:41Z")
[Reuters article](http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2006-05-05T215041Z_01_N05407845_RTRUKOC_0_US-CRIME-BOOTCAMP.xml) > [@Reuters](#): > > The second autopsy, performed by Hillsborough County Medical Examiner Dr. Vernard Adams, said the beating by the guards left bruises, but did not contribute to Anderson’s death. > > “Martin Anderson’s death was caused by suffocation due to actions of the guards at the boot camp,” Adams said in a written statement. > > “The suffocation was caused by manual occlusion of the mouth, in concert with forced inhalation of ammonia fumes that caused spasm of the vocal cords resulting in internal blockage of the upper airway.” > > The medical examiner’s statement offered no explanation as to how Anderson inhaled ammonia, which is used in smelling salts to revive unconscious or semi-conscious people. In March, Dr. Michael Baden, a New York doctor who observed the second autopsy and the videotape, said the guards held ammonia under Anderson’s nose and put a hand over his mouth while restraining him. > > Adams’ autopsy also found that Anderson had sickle cell trait. One in 12 African-Americans has sickle cell trait, which is different from sickle cell disease and does not routinely cause health problems. > > Adams and Hillsborough County State Attorney Mark Ober both said they would have no further comment on the autopsy results. The state attorney’s office is conducting a criminal investigation of Anderson’s death. > > Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said he was disturbed by the second autopsy’s findings and called the actions of the guards “deplorable.” > > “We all have one goal, and that is to see justice is served for Martin Lee Anderson,” Bush said in a written statement. ---
**Author:** ![Sharky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sharky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sharky)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/167 "2006-05-06T04:30:34Z")
[QUOTE=SteveG1] Have criminal charges been filed yet? Or is this just going to fall through the cracks? [/QUOTE] Governor Bush seems determined to file charges, so it’s a safe bet that nothing will fall through any cracks. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/168 "2006-05-06T15:52:34Z")
Good. Please keep us posted on the investigation and the results. It looks like the system needs to be changed, the guilty punished, and the rest need some decent training. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/169 "2006-11-28T16:14:57Z")
Update: [http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/11/28/bootcamp.death.ap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/11/28/bootcamp.death.ap/index.html) > [@CNN](#): > > Seven former juvenile boot camp guards and a nurse have been charged with aggravated manslaughter in the death of a boy whose rough handling by the guards was videotaped, a special prosecutor said Tuesday. > … > He said the suffocation was caused by hands blocking the boy’s mouth, as well as the “forced inhalation of ammonia fumes” that caused his vocal cords to spasm, blocking Anderson’s upper airway. It’s a zombie, but I think continuity is important in threads like this. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/170 "2006-11-28T16:33:16Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] Actual Boot Camp is unpleasant, but from everything I’ve ever heard actually not bad. They make you work, but unlike _Full Metal Jacket_, you don’t have R. Lee Ermy yelling at you. So, at best, it’s nothing more than people choosing to believe a fiction they like. [/QUOTE] It’s a little late to get involved in this, but actual boot camp, at least in the Air Force, bears no resemblance to that movie any longer, if it ever did. They do yell, they do scream, and they do verbally taunt you, but they cannot touch you. One of my MTIs actually asked permission to contact me to demonstrate the proper hand position for a salute because I was not doing it correctly. They are professional stress inducers, no more, no less. They are not abusers. What happened to this boy, the physical abuse, would never happen at Lackland. Were it to happen the people involved would be in jail for a long time and the supervisors would almost certainly be dismissed. That’s not to say that people don’t die in boot camp, but that is not because of abuse. It’s usually because they were not in proper shape when they got there and were overcome during PT, which is actually not all that strenuous. I do believe that boot camps for children can be a benefit, but not in the form that this one took. Boot camps are intended to stress you now so you don’t experience it first at the worst possible time, under fire. There is no need for such rigor in the case of boot camps for children. Teach them to stand at attention, teach them a skill, teach them respect, sure, but there’s no call for physical abuse. The abuse comes later, at Survival School. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Ready\_for\_my\_closeup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c37758/32.png) [@Ready\_for\_my\_closeup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ready_for_my_closeup)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/171 "2007-10-14T14:23:45Z")
I know this is a zombie thread, but the verdict is in and the guards have been acquitted of all charges. [Link](http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2007/10/13/294926.html). I find it shocking that they weren’t even convicted of some of the lesser charges. Even if his pre-existing condition was the reason for his death (something which is disputed in the autopsies and considering one of them was going to celebrate with the guards I don’t really trust his version of events), I have a hard time accepting that the guards’ actions were justified. The special prosecutor states that: > [@](#): > > “In spite of these verdicts, Martin Lee Anderson did not die in vain. This case brought needed attention and reform to our juvenile justice system.” But really, I doubt that that brings a lot of comfort to his family. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2007, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/172 "2007-10-14T16:16:59Z")
Jeb Bush withdrew his support from the boot camp program, but the system probably feels that people with the ability to exercise cruelty in the interests of society should not always be treated as criminals, but retained as valuable tools of social control. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/173 "2007-10-14T17:42:13Z")
Has anyone here read **Jesus Land** , a memoir of a girl and her brother who were sent to a “Christian” reform school in the Dominican Republic? The “counselors,” who are not even required to have special training in working with troubled youth before being employed, get away with quite a lot outside of the U.S. I don’t know that they’ve actually killed anyone in their custody, but they’re quite good at making people’s lives hell. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2007, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/174 "2007-10-14T17:44:50Z")
[QUOTE=Ready\_for\_my\_closeup] I know this is a zombie thread, but the verdict is in and the guards have been acquitted of all charges. [Link](http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2007/10/13/294926.html). I find it shocking that they weren’t even convicted of some of the lesser charges. Even if his pre-existing condition was the reason for his death (something which is disputed in the autopsies and considering one of them was going to celebrate with the guards I don’t really trust his version of events), I have a hard time accepting that the guards’ actions were justified. [/QUOTE] If Rodney King couldn’t get a fair trial in an overwhelmingly Democratic state (California) despite clear-cut visual evidence which was broadcast all around the world…what chance does some anonymous African-American teenager have in Florida?? This court decision is patently RACIST, pure and simple. And I don’t even feel outraged about it, because it’s typical of how Southern red states operate. Just a normal day. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2007, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/175 "2007-10-14T19:02:30Z")
[QUOTE=vivalostwages] […] they’re quite good at making people’s lives hell. [/QUOTE] As I said: valuable tools of social control. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/176 "2007-10-14T21:28:31Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] As I said: valuable tools of social control. [/QUOTE] So, what are you saying…you advocate the random killing of young, black males just because they’re young and black? Or do you merely support random killings? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/177 "2007-10-15T02:27:57Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] If Rodney King couldn’t get a fair trial in an overwhelmingly Democratic state (California) despite clear-cut visual evidence which was broadcast all around the world…what chance does some anonymous African-American teenager have in Florida?? This court decision is patently RACIST, pure and simple. And I don’t even feel outraged about it, because it’s typical of how Southern red states operate. Just a normal day. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Having spent entirely too much time watching CourtTV (lunch break) I have to say I agree with the jury. The instructors (guards, whatever) were just scapegoats. The jury saw through it. If you want to find the real perpetrators I suggest you find whoever thought these boot camps were a great idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/178 "2007-10-15T12:54:31Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] So, what are you saying…you advocate the random killing of young, black males just because they’re young and black? Or do you merely support random killings? [/QUOTE] Whoosh? **Beware of Doug** can speak for himself, but: [QUOTE=Beware of Doug] [T]he system probably feels that… [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/179 "2007-10-15T14:54:05Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] If Rodney King couldn’t get a fair trial in an overwhelmingly Democratic state (California) despite clear-cut visual evidence which was broadcast all around the world…what chance does some anonymous African-American teenager have in Florida?? This court decision is patently RACIST, pure and simple. And I don’t even feel outraged about it, because it’s typical of how Southern red states operate. Just a normal day. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] This thread contains hundreds of posts in which the fact that the video posted here does NOT contain clear-cut visual evidence of a crime is discussed at length. Why are you now castigating the jury for failing to see what many participants in this thread could also not see? Or are you claiming that the jury saw an unedited version in which the criminal acts were clear and unambiguous? And if so – where did you see this film? Can you provide a link? If not, then your outrage seems to be idiotic. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552/180 "2007-10-15T15:41:05Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] This court decision is patently RACIST, pure and simple. [/QUOTE] That’s just stupid. The guards were white, black, and asian. Are you honestly saying that it’s racist because some black _defendents_ (among other races) didn’t go to jail for allegedly beating a black victim? How does that make sense? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-young-boy-died-because-boot-camps-are-considered-tough-love/352552.md?page=10)