# Those Americans who served and fell in Iraq: Your cause is a noble one **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372 "2005-08-31T01:43:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/1 "2005-08-31T01:43:48Z")
Absent continued American presence in Iraq, there would a three-way civil war. One that could kill tens or even hundreds of thousands. > [@](#): > > According to [Juan Cole](http://www.juancole.com/2005/08/ten-things-congress-could-demand-from.html): > > Iraq wasn’t having a civil war in 2002. And although you could argue that what is going on now is a subterranean, unconventional civil war, it is not characterized by set piece battles and hundreds of people killed in a single battle, as was true in Lebanon in 1975-76, e.g. People often allege that the US military isn’t doing any good in Iraq and there is already a civil war. These people have never actually seen a civil war and do not appreciate the lid the US military is keeping on what could be a volcano. Such a civil war would also have uncertain geopolitical consequences: would the House of Saud fall? Would the oil keep flowing? Would the world tip into depression? **Why are we in Iraq?** We are in Iraq because Dick Cheney believed that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction and because the Vice President wasn’t interested in weighing conflicting evidence. We are in Iraq because Paul Wolfowitz believed that the road to Jerusalem ran through Bagdhad, and not the reverse. We are in Iraq because Paul Wolfowitz believed that [Liberal Democracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy) is an institution that would construct spontaneously, if only exogenous barriers to it were removed. We are in Iraq because Donald Rumsfeld saw no need for extensive post-invasion planning, [despite British advice to the contrary](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html), and because he feared that such plans would leak and slow the rush to war. There are other reasons. **The Point** : Even if you believe that the American leadership has made massive geostrategic errors, it nonetheless remains the case that an immediate pullout would prompt a humanitarian catastrophe. Efforts to avert calamity are noble, especially when the disaster would have followed from our decision to invade. In for a penny, in for a pound. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/2 "2005-08-31T01:45:35Z")
**On topicality and the scope of this thread** 1. Those intent on debating, “Why are we in Iraq?” and other topics are advised to visit the SDMB’s search facility, and then to open a new thread, if appropriate. See [Why Can’t We Just Leave Iraq?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=331784&highlight=Iraq), [Seriously, Why the War in Iraq?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=330453&highlight=Iraq), [Is it time to pull out of Iraq Regardless?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=327132&highlight=Iraq) to name 3. 2. The OP opposes an immediate pullout from Iraq. A timed pullout would be another matter entirely. I’ll note that Juan Cole happens to advocate a pullout of American troops from urban areas soon. That’s different. Interestingly, a similar recommendation was made by the center-right think tank Stratfor 1-2 years ago. 3. The OP is intended to address the question: **For what noble cause are American soldiers dying in Iraq?** The answer is (again): attempts avert humanitarian, geopolitical and economic catastrophe are noble. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/3 "2005-08-31T01:53:02Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > The answer is (again): attempts avert humanitarian, geopolitical and economic catastrophe are noble. So if I set fire to your house, then, at risk of my own life, rushed in at the last minute to save you, your kids and little fluffy, the beloved Boston terrier, would that count as a “noble act?” ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/4 "2005-08-31T01:56:12Z")
I almost entirely agree with you. Whether or not one agrees with the war itself, or the way the reconstruction was handled, I feel that we need to stay there until things right itself. The time to worry about troops dying or hemhorraging treasure was before the war, and apparently it wasn’t a big worry for enough people, nor was it during the 2004 election. In every sense of the word, this is our problem, we own it, and we need to fix it. (BTW, I know that there are some whom believe our very presence there is fueling the insurgency, but I hold that his isn’t necessarily a permanent condition. I do not feel that we should sacrifice Iraqi lives to save American lives simply because of our own incompetence.) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/5 "2005-08-31T02:01:08Z")
I had not considered that **bizzwire**. I was thinking about post-invasion casualties, or rather about Americans currently dying in Iraq. Again, Q: **For what noble cause _are_ American soldiers dying in Iraq?** A: Attempts to avert humanitarian, geopolitical and economic catastrophe are noble. I’ll let others address the culpability of GI Joe and Joesephine in the initial invasion, should they choose to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/6 "2005-08-31T02:01:38Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > So if I set fire to your house, then, at risk of my own life, rushed in at the last minute to save you, your kids and little fluffy, the beloved Boston terrier, would that count as a “noble act?” But if you’ve already set fire to his house, shouldn’t you do those things, since you can’t go back in time and undo what you’ve done. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/7 "2005-08-31T02:10:55Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > But if you’ve already set fire to his house, shouldn’t you do those things, since you can’t go back in time and undo what you’ve done. I suppose you’re right. You should attempt to right any wrong you’ve done to the best of your abilities. It’s not necessarily “noble,” it’s just the right thing to do, and I think most people on both sides of the aisle feel something along the lines of the **OP**. However, the **OP** appears to feel that if someone dies, their death **must** be noble, and invents a ‘nobility clause’ to justify their deaths. I’m sorry, but I’m not buying it. If their deaths have to have some meaning, my take is that they gave their lives to atone for their leaders’ evangelical zeal for war. That’s tragic, not noble. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/8 "2005-08-31T02:10:56Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > 1. The OP is intended to address the question: **For what noble cause are American soldiers dying in Iraq?** Framed as such, there can be no real debate; is an answer of “None” allowed? FWIW, I agree with much of what you say. But this is really not deserving of a yet another new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/9 "2005-08-31T02:12:39Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > But if you’ve already set fire to his house, shouldn’t you do those things, since you can’t go back in time and undo what you’ve done. Even if you _do_ go back to rescue those things, should you realistically expect anything other than a long jail sentence, with _maybe_ a little time off for good behaviour? ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/10 "2005-08-31T02:18:42Z")
It’s my belief that civil war in Iraq is inevitable. The US presence merely slows the pace of its outbreak. As a historian, I tend to look back instead of into the future, so I don’t have the comfortable distance to which I am used. Perhaps history will some day prove me wrong, and I sincerely hope this is true. I do feel strongly, though, that civil war is inevitable and that we will be fighting this war again within the next quarter century. History may someday show that the soldiers’ deaths were for a noble cause, but to me, it feels like throwing pebbles before a train to try to impede its progress. Maybe history will call this the First Step, but there’s a long, long, bloody road to travel yet. My soul aches for all of the anguish yet to come. A commentator I heard on this subject once remarked that democracies are a lot like love: it can’t be forced. I would add: it can’t be faked, nor can it be rushed or imposed. It just has to happen. Those involved have to _want_ it to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/11 "2005-08-31T02:30:07Z")
**bizzwire** ---- However, the OP appears to feel that if someone dies, their death must be noble, and invents a ‘nobility clause’ to justify their deaths. I’m sorry, but I’m not buying it. Oops. I don’t feel that way. Actually, I think I mucked up the thread title, though I’m currently happy with the OP. Attempts to avert humanitarian, geopolitical and economic catastrophe are morally sound. **furt** ------ Framed as such, there can be no real debate; is an answer of “None” allowed? Sure. Those advocating an immediate pullout would disagree with the OP. I tried to frame a question both narrow and topical. Topical: “I want one answer: What is the “noble cause” MY son died for. There are also dozens, if not hundreds of families from all over the country who want to know the same thing.” That’s from [Cindy Sherman](http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/05/08/con05300.html). Narrow: Should we pullout immediately from Iraq or follow some other policy? (Other policies include the current GWBush strategy, a pre-announced phase down and a retreat from urban areas. I don’t want to choose among other policies here. I just want to discuss the “immediate withdrawl” scenario.) ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/12 "2005-08-31T02:37:47Z")
I am torn. It would be so much more comfortable to be sure there is a right answer. On one hand, I do believe that it would be unconscionable to walk out after we broke it. We have an obligation to put it back together. On the other hand, as long as we remain there we are going to be a focus of hate and a detriment for any peace. T. S. Lawrence begged the English not to get involved in this part of the world. He told them the only thing that could bring them together was hate for outsiders and that they would strike at will then slip back into the desert. They would always be fighting mirages. I am beginning to think that perhaps an announced pull out would force those that are turning a blind eye to the insurgents in their neighborhoods to decide to become part of the solution. Then again it could simply become massive slaughter from now till the end of time. These people can carry hate for generations in a way Americans don’t seem to comprehend. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/13 "2005-08-31T02:45:21Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > I tried to frame a question both narrow and topical. > Topical: “I want one answer: What is the “noble cause” MY son died for. There are also dozens, if not hundreds of families from all over the country who want to know the same thing.” > That’s from [Cindy Sherman](http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/05/08/con05300.html). > Narrow: Should we pullout immediately from Iraq or follow some other policy? (Other policies include the current GWBush strategy, a pre-announced phase down and a retreat from urban areas. I don’t want to choose among other policies here. I just want to discuss the “immediate withdrawl” scenario.) You’re conflating two completely non-related issues. Topical: There is no “noble cause.” That’s the point Cindy Sherman was making in the linked article Narrow: We should leave as soon as we can be sure that Iraqis won’t start eating each other the moment we turn our backs. What’s to debate? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/14 "2005-08-31T02:47:36Z")
[hijack]For those interested, the bottom of this post gives links to 3 different plans for Iraq by Juan Cole, Wes Clark, and Andrew Krepinevich: [http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005\_08/006999.php](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_08/006999.php) [/hijack] It would be great to discuss these 3 ideas separately (somewhere else), but I’d rather get the really bad ideas off the table first. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/15 "2005-08-31T02:51:26Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > You’re conflating two completely non-related issues. > > Topical: There is no “noble cause.” That’s the point Cindy Sherman was making in the linked article I disagree. Preventing catastrophe is morally sound. Starting a catastophe is not, but that doesn’t conflict with my first point. (And yes, I’ve shifted to “morally sound”, which is the reasonable version of the politically charged phrase, “Noble cause”.) > [@bizzwire](#): > > Narrow: We should leave as soon as we can be sure that Iraqis won’t start eating each other the moment we turn our backs. Cindy Sherman would disagree with you there, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/16 "2005-08-31T02:52:39Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > I want one answer: What is the “noble cause” MY son died for. It seems we picked up a new one of those today, or at least the nebulous talk about not letting terrorists win has been sharpened to a specific scenario: > [@](#): > > If Zarqawi and bin Laden gain control of Iraq, they would create a new training ground for future terrorist attacks; they’d seize oil fields to fund their ambitions; they could recruit more terrorists by claiming an historic victory over the United States and our coalition. [President Commemorates 60th Anniversary of V-J Day](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050830-1.html) (Aug 30, 2005) Has anyone previously claimed that Zarqawi and bin Laden, al Qaeda, have a ghost of a chance of taking over Iraq? To me, that seems as likely as our suddenly finding massive caches of ready-to-use WMD’s. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/17 "2005-08-31T04:49:00Z")
The original cause could be seen as “noble”: protecting America from Saddam’s “vast stockpiles” of evil mojo. Does a cause cease to be noble if the premises that support that noble action are false? That’s too many for me, I fold, subtler minds will judge. If we remain in Iraq, we will end up choosing sides. Almost certainly, we will end up choosing the Shia/Kurdish alliance. Being the majority, they have the most claim to legitimacy. And I have little doubt that they would be willing to permit us to spend our blood and treasure against their enemies. And then what? Will they love us for it? Given our past record of bending them over whenever it suited our purposes, aren’t they more likely to see it as a cynical _realpolitik_ manuever that they are entirely justified in exploiting? Suppose the Kurdish/Shia governance decides to actively oppress the Sunni minority? Suppose the Kurds are given legal standing to remove those Sunni Arabs who were relocated in Kurdish territory by evicting the legitimate Kurdish owners? Suppose they decide that armed force is justified. Suppose the Sunni’s resist? Aren’t they “insurrectionists”? And aren’t the insurrectionists allied with Al Queda? This is not just a slippery slope, this is a _mined_ slippery slope. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/18 "2005-08-31T05:43:26Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Has anyone previously claimed that Zarqawi and bin Laden, al Qaeda, have a ghost of a chance of taking over Iraq? To me, that seems as likely as our suddenly finding massive caches of ready-to-use WMD’s. W’s full quote is somewhat less retarded: “Their goal is to turn Iraq into a failed state like Afghanistan was under the Taliban. If Zarqawi and bin Laden gain control in [del]of[/del] Iraq, they would create a new training ground for future terrorist attacks; they’d seize oil fields to fund their ambitions; they could recruit more terrorists by claiming an historic victory over the United States and our coalition.” (Edited by M4M to make the President’s scenario more plausible.) Yes, a failed state could permit additional terrorist training camps. Somehow though I think that might be the least of our problems. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/19 "2005-08-31T05:46:09Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > So if I set fire to your house, then, at risk of my own life, rushed in at the last minute to save you, your kids and little fluffy, the beloved Boston terrier, would that count as a “noble act?” The problem with this analogy is that the Damn Fool who started this Damn fool War _isn’t_ putting his life on the line (or, indeed, anything else of his own value) for the subsequent “noble act.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372/20 "2005-08-31T06:09:04Z")
**M4M’s** quote raises an interesting question: is it the perogative of the Executive Branch to define and/or redefine the noble cause if it finds that circumstances warrant? Is that one of the War Powers? Should there be some sort of special proclamation when a new version of the noble cause is rolled out, or is it sufficient simply to pretend that the version 2.0 always _was_ the noble cause? And the people who died protecting us from Saddam’s evil mojo. Is that credit transferable? Can their motives be retroactively adjusted to fit present circumstances, if the President so determines? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-americans-who-served-and-fell-in-iraq-your-cause-is-a-noble-one/319372.md?page=2)