# Those for Obamacare: What guarantee do we have that the gov't won't go further? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365 "2009-08-14T01:13:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/21 "2009-08-14T02:17:44Z")
What guarantee? The traditional one - we have regular elections. If universl health care turns out to be the disaster its opponents claim, it’ll be an orphan everybody will be happy to repeal. If the Democrats foolishly try to keep an unpopular UHC program alive, they’ll be replaced by Republicans who’ll be glad to take the credit for killing it. The opponents of universal health care aren’t afraid of its failure - they’re worried about its success. They’re worried that if UHC gets a chance it might succeed and then their vested interests in private health care will be worthless. So they’ve got to kill UHC before it has a chance to succeed or fail on its own merits. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/22 "2009-08-14T02:20:30Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > Well it seems to me that this UHC is going to happen no matter what. People can call in to their elected leaders and bitch until they are blue in the face, but at the end of the day these democrats and republicans are going to vote how they are told to vote by their superiors. > > If people are trying to help the poor out then our government and our president needs to help them without tramping over other people that do no need UHC. Why do they have to throw EVERYONE into this thing one way or another? > > That is what I mean by being forced into. I’m not clear on all the details but I hear you won’t be forced to change your health care plan if you don’t want to and depending on your income it may not cost you anything personally. We all pay taxes to support schools {even people with no0 kids do this} and roads {people who don’t drive do this} the fire dept, the police, the armed forces. My taxes helped support the war in Iraq and I thought that sucked but I chose to work for change. I’m still willing. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/23 "2009-08-14T02:21:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The opponents of universal health care aren’t afraid of its failure - they’re worried about its success. They’re worried that if UHC gets a chance it might succeed and then their vested interests in private health care will be worthless. So they’ve got to kill UHC before it has a chance to succeed or fail on its own merits. I don’t think most of the opponents are that specific in their fears. There are a lot of amorphous bugaboos like “socialism” or “rationing.” I think this is mostly fear of the unknown, not “Rah, insurance companies, rah!” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/24 "2009-08-14T02:27:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What guarantee? The traditional one - we have regular elections. If universl health care turns out to be the disaster its opponents claim, it’ll be an orphan everybody will be happy to repeal. If the Democrats foolishly try to keep an unpopular UHC program alive, they’ll be replaced by Republicans who’ll be glad to take the credit for killing it. > > The opponents of universal health care aren’t afraid of its failure - they’re worried about its success. They’re worried that if UHC gets a chance it might succeed and then their vested interests in private health care will be worthless. So they’ve got to kill UHC before it has a chance to succeed or fail on its own merits. Thank you. Excellent point. Our democracy is indeed the guarantee. That’s why I don’t understand all the fear and panic over health care. If it doesn’t work out we can and will change it. Isn’t that why the Dems are in charge now, because the Pubbies had there chance and pretty much blew it? If the Dems don’t smarten up and actually deliver something decent lets toss em out. More independents I say. More moderates. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/25 "2009-08-14T02:27:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Don’t be ridiculous; health care isn’t assault. > > Because the people who come here have the money to buy what they need. The more typical people who stay home find our system horrifying, not to mention difficult to believe. Putting someone into a situation that they do not want IS assault. So people with the money to buy what they need…come to America because they can, right? And the people who stay home in Canada find our system “horrifying” and “difficult to believe”. How do they figure that out if they are staying home in Canada in the first place? How do the people who stay home and not use American healthcare get to share their opinion on something didn’t even buy and their opinions actually matter on something they didn’t buy? The fact that “rich” Canadians come here spend all this money on healthcare is proof positive that they are satisfied customers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/26 "2009-08-14T02:39:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Thank you. Excellent point. Our democracy is indeed the guarantee. That’s why I don’t understand all the fear and panic over health care. If it doesn’t work out we can and will change it. Isn’t that why the Dems are in charge now, because the Pubbies had there chance and pretty much blew it? If the Dems don’t smarten up and actually deliver something decent lets toss em out. More independents I say. More moderates Remember the story of the emperor’s new clothes? Keep in mind that while the majority of people went along with the story, there were a couple of tailors who had a specific interest in having everyone else believe he was wearing magic clothes. They were making money out of selling him those supposed outfits. Same thing with our health care system. It may be broken but there are people who are making money off it as it is. They have no interest in getting it fixed. But they can’t come out and say _“we should keep things the way they are because I want to buy a new yacht”_ - the public isn’t going to get behind that motive however honest it may be. So they have to say _“the system we have is great for everyone and everyone benefits from it - or at least they would benefit less from a different sytem”_ - they have to make their self-interest appear to be a community interest. ---
**Author:** ![jebert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ec9cab/32.png) [@jebert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jebert)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/27 "2009-08-14T02:46:40Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > I always hear about people coming to the US for their healthcare needs…why is that if these polls have a 90% approval rating? > > Oh wait it was on CNN… > > Nevermind. It was on the Lou Dobbs part of CNN. And CNN didn’t conduct the survey. Maybe you’re hearing about the other 10%. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/28 "2009-08-14T02:49:00Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > Putting someone into a situation that they do not want IS assault. You’re assaulting me right now. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/29 "2009-08-14T03:03:21Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > These arguments are embarrassing. We’re better than this, as a society. You are correct. The argument that whatever the mob wants, the mob should get is an embarrassing argument. But your ire should be pointed at Der Trihs, not me. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What guarantee? The traditional one - we have regular elections. If universl health care turns out to be the disaster its opponents claim, it’ll be an orphan everybody will be happy to repeal. If the Democrats foolishly try to keep an unpopular UHC program alive, they’ll be replaced by Republicans who’ll be glad to take the credit for killing it. > > The opponents of universal health care aren’t afraid of its failure - they’re worried about its success. They’re worried that if UHC gets a chance it might succeed and then their vested interests in private health care will be worthless. So they’ve got to kill UHC before it has a chance to succeed or fail on its own merits. Actually, I am quite concerned about UHC failing. Why am I concerned? Because, like a large number of other government programs, instead of it getting killed it will just get more funds. The politicians are not very good at killing programs. If there was a way to ensure that the program would be killed if it did not work cheaply and effectively I would be much more open to the idea. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/30 "2009-08-14T03:07:34Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Why? They are the minority. Fuck 'em. When they regain the majority, if ever, then they can do something about it. That’s the politics works. Is it only Republicans/Conservatives who are against it? You’re “fuck’em-they-are-the-minority” is what democracy is all about. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/31 "2009-08-14T03:07:42Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Actually, I am quite concerned about UHC failing. Why am I concerned? Because, like a large number of other government programs, instead of it getting killed it will just get more funds. The politicians are not very good at killing programs. If there was a way to ensure that the program would be killed if it did not work cheaply and effectively I would be much more open to the idea. > > Slee If only we had some sort of system in place so that we had some sort of control over our politicians. I have it, maybe we should periodically be able to vote to see if they remain in office! Nah, it’ll never work. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/32 "2009-08-14T03:10:24Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > If only we had some sort of system in place so that we had some sort of control over our politicians. I have it, maybe we should periodically be able to vote to see if they remain in office! > > Nah, it’ll never work. Pinky, are you thinking what I’m thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/33 "2009-08-14T03:19:05Z")
I fully support a full government take over of heath care. Go socialized medicine. what’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/34 "2009-08-14T03:33:03Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > Putting someone into a situation that they do not want IS assault. No, it isn’t. Words have meanings: > [@](#): > > 1. a sudden, violent attack; onslaught: an assault on tradition. > 2. Law. an unlawful physical attack upon another; an attempt or offer to do violence to another, with or without battery, as by holding a stone or club in a threatening manner. > 3. Military. the stage of close combat in an attack. > [@](#): > > So people with the money to buy what they need…come to America because they can, right? And the people who stay home in Canada find our system “horrifying” and “difficult to believe”. How do they figure that out if they are staying home in Canada in the first place? How do the people who stay home and not use American healthcare get to share their opinion on something didn’t even buy and their opinions actually matter on something they didn’t buy? > > The fact that “rich” Canadians come here spend all this money on healthcare is proof positive that they are satisfied customers. No, it isn’t. Your logic and your vocabulary both seem to need some work. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/35 "2009-08-14T03:34:48Z")
**Those for Obamacare: What guarantee do we have that the gov’t won’t go further?** \*\*Those NOT for Obamacare: What guarantee do we have that the Insurance Companies won’t go further? \*\* None whatsoever: [Blue Cross gets OK to increase premiums 22% for individual market products](http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20090813/FREE/908139986#) > [@](#): > > Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan has received state approval to increase its rates an average 22 percent for its individual and group conversion product lines. > > The rates would go into effect Oct. 1. > … > Earlier this year, Blue Cross asked for permission to increase its individual rates by an average of 56 percent and 41 percent for individuals in the group conversion segment. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/36 "2009-08-14T03:38:03Z")
You guys do know that nobody has to take Obamacare if they don’t want it, don’t you? If you adore getting cornholed by HMOs, you’re welcome to continue doing so. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/37 "2009-08-14T03:40:37Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > If only we had some sort of system in place so that we had some sort of control over our politicians. I have it, maybe we should periodically be able to vote to see if they remain in office! > > Nah, it’ll never work. Ok, then name to me 5 government entitlement programs that have been totally canceled in the last 10 years. Heck, make it 2 and 20 years. I will be extremely surprised if you can find any. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/38 "2009-08-14T03:48:17Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Heck, make it 2 and 20 years. Well, there was the army’s [Crusader mobile howitzer program](http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2001/01/15/crusader.html) and the F-22 Raptor. Both constituted welfare programs for downtrodden states. It begins to look like the airborne laser might follow in the Raptor’s footsteps. Those are all in the last 9 years. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/39 "2009-08-14T03:51:16Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Well, there was the army’s [Crusader mobile howitzer program](http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2001/01/15/crusader.html) and the F-22 Raptor. Both constituted welfare programs for downtrodden states. > It begins to look like the airborne laser might follow in the Raptor’s footsteps. > Those are all in the last 9 years. How long before **slee** comes back to move the goal posts by claiming that your examples don’t fit his criteria? ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/40 "2009-08-14T04:03:41Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Well, there was the army’s [Crusader mobile howitzer program](http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2001/01/15/crusader.html) and the F-22 Raptor. Both constituted welfare programs for downtrodden states. > It begins to look like the airborne laser might follow in the Raptor’s footsteps. > Those are all in the last 9 years. Those are not entitlement programs. Try again. You might not like the howitzer or F-22 program but it neither are entitlement programs. And,\*\* Snowboarder Bo\*\*, read the original post. The original request was for entitlement programs. In case there is any confusion on what an entitlement program is, here is a [link](http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e081.htm). Slee [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365.md?page=3)