# Those for Obamacare: What guarantee do we have that the gov't won't go further? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365 "2009-08-14T01:13:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/41 "2009-08-14T04:13:13Z")
> [@](#): > > **Those for Obamacare: What guarantee do we have that the gov’t won’t go further?** Do you apply this same level of concern with every president, and his proposed policies? Bush? Clinton? Bush? Reagan? Carter? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/42 "2009-08-14T04:16:10Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > How long before **slee** comes back to move the goal posts by claiming that your examples don’t fit his criteria? I’ll guess 15 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/43 "2009-08-14T04:19:29Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > I’ll guess 15 minutes. You’re like _psychic_, man. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/44 "2009-08-14T04:24:49Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Those are not entitlement programs. Try again. You might not like the howitzer or F-22 program but it neither are entitlement programs. > > And,\*\* Snowboarder Bo\*\*, read the original post. The original request was for entitlement programs. In case there is any confusion on what an entitlement program is, here is a [link](http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e081.htm). > > Slee Let me ask you this: why would an entitlement program, voted into law through a majority of duly-elected representatives, be curtailed? After all, the EPs only come about because a majority of people think they are a good idea, and obviously continue to think they are a good idea. _Why_ would the good idea suddenly become a bad idea that had to be stopped? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/45 "2009-08-14T04:26:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Let me ask you this: why would an entitlement program, voted into law through a majority of duly-elected representatives, be curtailed? After all, the EPs only come about because a majority of people think they are a good idea, and obviously continue to think they are a good idea. _Why_ would the good idea suddenly become a bad idea that had to be stopped? Cooties? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/46 "2009-08-14T04:27:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Ok, then name to me 5 government entitlement programs that have been totally canceled in the last 10 years. Heck, make it 2 and 20 years. > > I will be extremely surprised if you can find any. The facts are clear. Government entitlement programs have a 100% success rate. Strong evidence that we should start another one. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/47 "2009-08-14T04:41:06Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Those are not entitlement programs. Yes, the good people of the state of Texas simply _must_ have the means to fight of Indian agressors: [here](http://trueslant.com/joshuakucera/2009/07/24/senator-puts-india-in-f-22s-sights/) Corporations feed at the public trough too, you know. Your distaste for calling such programs entitlements doesn’t change the degree to which that is true. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/48 "2009-08-14T04:43:15Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > Putting someone into a situation that they do not want IS assault. So you and those like you are assaulting the rest of us by forcing us to use private health care? Or just suffer and die if we can’t. The side which is denying options to others is yours, not the pro-UHC people. > [@ManiacMan](#): > > So people with the money to buy what they need…come to America because they can, right? Of course; America is all about handing out goodies to those with money, at the expense of screwing everyone else. > [@ManiacMan](#): > > And the people who stay home in Canada find our system “horrifying” and “difficult to believe”. How do they figure that out if they are staying home in Canada in the first place? That’s a silly question. By talking to Americans, by having American friends, by visiting America for other reasons. Canada isn’t some isolated valley in rural China; they are right next door. They even have Internet access! Shocking, I know; I bet you thought they got their news by courier moose. > [@ManiacMan](#): > > How do the people who stay home and not use American healthcare get to share their opinion on something didn’t even buy and their opinions actually matter on something they didn’t buy? YOU were the one who brought up the opinions of foreigners. > [@ManiacMan](#): > > The fact that “rich” Canadians come here spend all this money on healthcare is proof positive that they are satisfied customers. Because the system is designed to benefit the rich, and let the common people rot. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/49 "2009-08-14T04:47:04Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > How do the people who stay home and not use American healthcare get to share their opinion on something didn’t even buy and their opinions actually matter on something they didn’t buy? I didn’t see this line earlier. So, you use this for yourself too, I hope? If Canadians aren’t allowed to comment on US health care, you aren’t allowed to comment on Canadian, right? You don’t get to have an opinion on Canadian or UK or Australian or Zimbabwean or Lunar or Andromedean health care, right? So, if I say, “I want health care like Canada!” you can’t say anything bad or good about Canada’s health care. After all, you didn’t buy it. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/50 "2009-08-14T05:22:02Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You’re like _psychic_, man. The fact that **Squink** either cannot read for comprehension or does not know what an entitlement program is does not in any way mean that I moved the goal posts. I asked a straightfoward question and got an bad answer. \*\*Squink \*\*my think that the programs he mentioned are pork, unnecessary and are a form of welfare programs for certain states (and he may be correct), but they are not entitlement programs. The question still stands. **Snowboarder Bo** , there are a couple reasons to get rid of entitlement programs. The first, foremost and one that everyone wants to ignore is that they are going to eat the budget alive and sooner or later go [broke](http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/29/board-of-trustees-personal-finance-retirement-saving-social-security.html). There are also negative effects of some programs, like welfare, where some of the recipients of the program are hurt in the long run by the program. The argument put forth was that if Obamacare is passed and does not work it can be killed. I asked for a cite of that having occurred in the past. I do not believe that will happen because, as far as I can, tell no entitlement program that has been enacted has ever been killed even if there are serious negative consequences. Upon preview: > [@Squink](#): > > Yes, the good people of the state of Texas simply _must_ have the means to fight of Indian agressors: [here](http://trueslant.com/joshuakucera/2009/07/24/senator-puts-india-in-f-22s-sights/) > Corporations feed at the public trough too, you know. Your distaste for calling such programs entitlements doesn’t change the degree to which that is true. Those programs may be pork, unnecessary, and better off dead but they ain’t entitlements. Read the [definition](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entitlement)again. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/51 "2009-08-14T05:44:26Z")
I think it’s pretty clear by now that, yes, Obamacare will lead to even greater government control over health care than Obama says it will. It’s also clear that among the liberal contingent, this is just peachy…which of course comes as no surprise because they want the government to control everything: production, distribution, health care, salaries, etc., etc., ad infinitum. After all, that’s the only way to ensure that everything’s “fair.” It’s hard to argue against people being entitled to money they earn through their own entreprenurial efforts, so the answer is for government to run everything and then no one will have an excuse for having more that anyone else. The country’s economy will then be just one big pie that everyone gets an equal slice of. This approach has been tried before several times before and it has failed miserably without exception – condemning its citizenry to decades of misery, short supply, and a heavy-handed, oppressive, spying government in which children are encouraged to out their parents for comments disloyal to the state (forced submission and loyalty being of course the only way such governments can stand) but American liberals for some reason think it’s the route to paradise. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/52 "2009-08-14T05:47:22Z")
And we want the country to be overrun by Nazis riding dinosaurs. Don’t forget that part. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/53 "2009-08-14T05:51:56Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > \ Holy cow, that’s a big heaping pile a stupid all wrapped up in a single smelly post. I’d ask for a cite for just about any of that, but expecting that would make me look even more stupid than your post. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/54 "2009-08-14T05:55:10Z")
Which only goes to show that I pay more attention to what gets said around here than you do. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/55 "2009-08-14T06:03:01Z")
The answer to the OP is there is no guarantee. Now that that is answered, I have a question for the OP. If there was such a guarantee, would you support the plan? In other words, are you for the plan as laid out, as long as it stops there? If the answer is yes, would you still be for the plan if maintaining the status quo was an option? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/56 "2009-08-14T06:29:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I think it’s pretty clear by now that, yes, Obamacare will lead to even greater government control over health care than Obama says it will. > > It’s also clear that among the liberal contingent, this is just peachy…which of course comes as no surprise because they want the government to control everything: production, distribution, health care, salaries, etc., etc., ad infinitum. > > After all, that’s the only way to ensure that everything’s “fair.” It’s hard to argue against people being entitled to money they earn through their own entreprenurial efforts, so the answer is for government to run everything and then no one will have an excuse for having more that anyone else. The country’s economy will then be just one big pie that everyone gets an equal slice of. > > This approach has been tried before several times before and it has failed miserably without exception – condemning its citizenry to decades of misery, short supply, and a heavy-handed, oppressive, spying government in which children are encouraged to out their parents for comments disloyal to the state (forced submission and loyalty being of course the only way such governments can stand) but American liberals for some reason think it’s the route to paradise. Holy shit. And I thought the OP was a silly slippery slope… Don’t forget, kids. Socialized health care leads to your parents going to jail for being disloyal. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/57 "2009-08-14T06:29:44Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > If someone forces me into something that I do not want (which is what this UHC is going to do) then I am being assualted…thanks for enlightening me. So, if your girlfriend drags you to a chick flick, you’re being assaulted? Call the National Guard - there are a bunch of guys in **Julie and Julia** who need to be rescued! Seriously is all you have against the plan that you don’t like it and some rich guys in Canada come here. Rich guys here won’t be affected at all, though there is some thought to taxing super plans. Nothing else? The working poor who don’t get decent coverage and so go bankrupt if they get sick - there is assault for you. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/58 "2009-08-14T06:31:15Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > This approach has been tried before several times before and it has failed miserably without exception – condemning its citizenry to decades of misery, short supply, and a heavy-handed, oppressive, spying government in which children are encouraged to out their parents for comments disloyal to the state (forced submission and loyalty being of course the only way such governments can stand) but American liberals for some reason think it’s the route to paradise. Could you work me being able to torture Cheney somewhere in your paranoid fantasy? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/59 "2009-08-14T07:48:29Z")
Why don’t you read [the definition](http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/entitlement_program) again? (NOTE: this is not Ralf Rinkle’s 'Lectric Law Library) > [@](#): > > The kind of government program that provides individuals with personal financial benefits (or sometimes special government-provided goods or services) to which an indefinite (but usually rather large) number of potential beneficiaries have a legal right (enforceable in court, if necessary) whenever they meet eligibility conditions that are specified by the standing law that authorizes the program. **The beneficiaries of entitlement programs are normally individual citizens or residents, but sometimes organizations such as business corporations, local governments, or even political parties may have similar special “entitlements” under certain programs**. The most important examples of entitlement programs at the federal level in the United States would include Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, most Veterans’ Administration programs, federal employee and military retirement plans, unemployment compensation, food stamps, and agricultural price support programs. So, a law is passed appropriating money for a corporation, provided they meet eligibility conditions (can they build this thing? do they drug screen their employees?)… and to you that’s not an entitlement. Seems to me that nearly everything government pays for is an entitlement. Clearly the majority of the population doesn’t share your concerns or see things trending the way you do. And I think that after more than 50 years with most of these programs, its safe to say that they are being managed and funded well. People have been predicting gloom & doom about welfare, SS, Medicare, etc. since I was a kid, and I ain’t no spring chicken no more. The sky didn’t fall then, and it’s not falling now. Not even slowly. IMO, people aren’t at all worried that there will be a financial disaster; they have other reasons for speaking out about (most) of these programs. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365/60 "2009-08-14T08:45:14Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Show me exactly where Obama says this. Obama says he is not proposing an elimination of private options or single payer. Where has he said this step can’t and won’t eventually lead to a single payer program. That would be a stupid thing for a smart man to say. If , at some point in the future, single payer seems like a good option for this society, why shouldn’t we be able to choose that? If it never seems like a good option then so be it. > > I have a question. Why , specifically, should people be _afraid_ of the possibility of a single payer program like so any of our fellow democracies have? to paraphrase the real kernel of the conservative argument: ‘Private schemes can’t exist without all the uncontested gouging and cheating they currently engage in. A reasonably honest, efficient public alternative would therefore drive their cheating gouging asses out of town on a rail’ And they somehow see this as a bad thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-for-obamacare-what-guarantee-do-we-have-that-the-govt-wont-go-further/506365.md?page=4)