# Those Iraqi WMDs Again **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725 "2006-06-22T15:12:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/1 "2006-06-22T15:12:37Z")
I think I will post this in GD so as to make sure it doesn’t get personal. 😃 [http://www.wwmt.com/engine.pl?station=wwmt&id=27609&template=breakout\_local.html](http://www.wwmt.com/engine.pl?station=wwmt&id=27609&template=breakout_local.html) As I see it, the options are as follows: [ul][li]“We haven’t found any WMD in Iraq” really meant “we haven’t found enough WMD in Iraq”.[/li][li]Saddam would have given up those WMD eventually, if we had been patient for another twelve years or so.[/li][li]It doesn’t make any difference anyway, just because Saddam was lying about those WMDs doesn’t justify bringing about the “serious consequences” the UN warned him about.[/li][li]It was never really about WMD. That was just an excuse to attack Bush, because as we all know[/li] **BushLiedBushLiedBushLiedBushLiedBushLiedBushLiedBushLiedBushLiedBushLiedBushLied** …[/ul] Thoughts? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/2 "2006-06-22T15:23:40Z")
According to Fox News, the 500 or so projectiles mentioned in the report were probably all manufactured before 1991. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/3 "2006-06-22T15:24:05Z")
I guess some variant of 1. It would be that we didn’t find the weapon programs that President Bush claimed Iraq had…mobile biological labs and uranium enrichment. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/4 "2006-06-22T15:24:32Z")
From the article (bolding added): > [@](#): > > The document says coalition forces found 500 munitions in Iraq which contained degraded sarin, or mustard nerve agents, **produced before the 1991 gulf war.** So, add a bullet point: [ul]There are plenty of stupid people who desperately want to believe their prophet Bush wasn’t fucking lying to them so if we repeat vague assertions about WMDs we can shore up our base of hardcore support because we know they won’t bother to actually read the document in question and thereby learn that this is very old material that was almost certainly documented in the original inspections and that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with any “weapons-related program activities” or any of the other hysterical fearmongering assertions about active development of mushroom-cloud-producing devices that were looming imminently over our horizon.[/ul]How about that? ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/5 "2006-06-22T15:31:25Z")
Weird. There was a thread twoish years ago about the same stash of artillary shells, not sure how this report is “newly declassifed” then. In anycase, if Bush had gone before the American People and said that we needed to rapidly move towards invading Iraq because of 500 non-functional (my understanding is the chemicals involved degrade into uselessness over time) decade old artillary shells, we wouldn’t be in Iraq today. I’m also skeptical Saddam knew about these shells. Why destroy 95% of your stockpiles, as well as your ability to create new shells or maintain the ones you have, then hold on to a few hundred as they slowly decay into uselessness. I imagine they were mistaken as conventional shells at somepoint and warehoused as such. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/6 "2006-06-22T15:35:41Z")
Well, following all the links to their ends gets me to two broken links to pdf documents that aren’t there, so I’m still waiting to see this alleged report that Hoekstra is basing his announcement on. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/7 "2006-06-22T15:42:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think I will post this in GD so as to make sure it doesn’t get personal. 😃 If Hoekstra and Santorum actually believe the shit they are spouting, then they are morons. If they don’t believe it, then they are mainstream republicans. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/8 "2006-06-22T15:43:42Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] From the article (bolding added):So, add a bullet point: [ul][li]There are plenty of stupid people who desperately want to believe their prophet Bush wasn’t fucking lying to them so if we repeat vague assertions about WMDs we can shore up our base of hardcore support because we know they won’t bother to actually read the document in question and thereby learn that this is very old material that was almost certainly documented in the original inspections and that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with any “weapons-related program activities” or any of the other hysterical fearmongering assertions about active development of mushroom-cloud-producing devices that were looming imminently over our horizon.[/ul]How about that?[/li][/QUOTE] Or another bullet point: [ul][li] There is very little doubt that Hussein retained the capability to manufacture chemical weapons and could easily ramp up production as soon as he succeeded in getting the sanctions lifted knowing that he could always count on cowards, quislings, fools and defeatists in the United States to turn a blind eye to the fact that he simply was NOT going to give up chemical weapons, no way, no how, and do their damnedest to undermine support for any kind of forceful action against him or any other bloodsoaked Third World barbarian without the slightest regard for whether or not any actual danger exists.[/li][/ul] That one’s even better than yours. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/9 "2006-06-22T15:46:41Z")
Looks like Shodan got taken in by another drudge flash report. Other, less excitable conservatives, are less than amused: [http://www.professorbainbridge.com/2006/06/500\_wmd\_shells\_.html](http://www.professorbainbridge.com/2006/06/500_wmd_shells_.html) Note that the claim that the inspections team “didn’t find” these weapons is a pretty vile lie. They weren’t looking for these weapons in the first place. No one dispute that these shells were scattered all over Iraq. Heck, many people had them sitting on their mantlepieces, unaware of what the color coding meant, as relics of the Iran-Iraq war battlefields. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/10 "2006-06-22T15:48:36Z")
Sorry, that should have been “drudge-STYLE” report, i.e. a blaring PR blitz with a highly misleading headline and summary that on closer examination turns out to be a lot of BS. Drudge was blaring this one, but obviously other outlets do it too. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/11 "2006-06-22T15:52:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As I see it, the options are as follows: Would you mind being slightly more specific. These are the options? Whose options? Options for what? And who gave you the authority to decide what these mysterious options are? The entire world knows that Bush made enormous claims about Saddam’s WMD capability that were entirely false. The entire world knows that Bush’s mistruths were deliberate lies, not innocent mistakes. If Hoekstra’s report actually justified the things Bush said before the war, then Bush and all his friends would be trumpeting that report from the rooftops. But they aren’t. Recall: the Bushies claimed that Saddam had 500 tons of mustard gas. They claimed he was actively trying to purchase yellowcake uranium. They claimed he could deliver chemical weapons to Europe and America in a matter of minutes. As near as I can tell, Hoekstra’s report doesn’t address any of those claims. Of course, I can’t tell very nearly right now. I think even you would agree that a news report of four extremely short paragraphs is not very detailed. I’d love to read the entire thing, but when I try to follow the link and read the summary of the report, I get an “Object not found” error. Hmmmmmmm… In short, I think this is a good sign. If the Republicans are really desperate enough that they have to use this to justify the war retroactively, then support for the Iraq war must truly be on its last legs. The withdrawal will be coming soon. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/12 "2006-06-22T15:53:51Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Or another bullet point: > > [ul][li] There is very little doubt that Hussein retained the capability to manufacture chemical weapons and could easily ramp up production as soon as he succeeded in getting the sanctions lifted knowing that he could always count on cowards, quislings, fools and defeatists in the United States to turn a blind eye to the fact that he simply was NOT going to give up chemical weapons, no way, no how, and do their damnedest to undermine support for any kind of forceful action against him or any other bloodsoaked Third World barbarian without the slightest regard for whether or not any actual danger exists.[/li][/ul] > > That one’s even better than yours. Cite? Are you calling me a traitor? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/13 "2006-06-22T15:56:17Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Or another bullet point: [list][li] … forceful action against him or any other bloodsoaked Third World barbarian without the slightest regard for whether or not any actual danger exists.[/li][/QUOTE] Does this also apply to “first world” fools who presume some dangers, inflate them, and then strike out blindly against the wrong target? ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/14 "2006-06-22T16:01:24Z")
Ah, found the error. Some numbnuts running the Intelligence Committee’s website doesn’t know how to translate a Windows filepath into a properly-formatted URL. [Here’s the summary released to Hoekstra et. al. upon which he bases his own press release](http://intelligence.house.gov/Media/PDFS/DNILetter.pdf) > [@](#): > > Unclassified June 21 2006 > > Subject: Iraqi Chemical Munitions > > Purpose: This summary provides an unclassified overview of chemical munitions recoverred in Iraq since May 2004. > > Key points: > > –Since 2003 Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. > > –Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq’s pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist. > > –Pre-Gulf War Iraqi chemical weapons could be sold on the black market. Use of these weapons by terrorists or insurgent groups would have implications for Coalition forces in Iraq. The possibility of use outside Iraq cannot be ruled out. > > –The most likely munitions remaining are sarin and mustard-filled projectiles. > > –The purity of the agent inside the munitions depends on many factors, including the manufacturing process, potential additives, and environmental storage conditions. While agents degrade over time, chemical warfare agents remain hazardous and potentially lethal. > > –It has been reported in the open press that insurgents and Iraqi groups desire to acquire and use chemical weapons. That’s the whole thing, apart from a cover letter and a list of recipients. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/15 "2006-06-22T16:27:33Z")
Ah, so it’s just a summary of how many chemical weapon shells have been found over the last few years. That explains the weirdness I noted earlier with this “declassifed” report appearing to be old news. And it is old news, there have been reports of pre-'91 chemical weapons found since the invasion, one was even used in a roadside bomb attack. But no capacity to produce or maintain these weapons, no sign they were being conciously stockpiled, no sign any were made after '91, etc. These shells were not anywhere close to the biggest threat to US security in 2002, and certainly not worth 2000+ American lives, billions of dollars, the loss of American prestige, etc. I think the real story here is why our military classifies stuff that is being reported in US newspapers. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/16 "2006-06-22T16:27:46Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > Are you calling me a traitor? You object to my post but not Cervaise’s? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/17 "2006-06-22T16:28:43Z")
[ul][li]“We haven’t found any WMD in Iraq” really meant “we haven’t found WMD, or WMD programs, which resemble those claimed to exist by the administration”.[_]Sanctions and inspections were working to frustrate any ambitions Saddam had towards retaining or building a WMD arsenal.[_]Inspections could have easily dealt with this small cache of shells, as had been done with similar caches in the past.[_]It is the province of the Security Council, acting within their own rules of procedure, to determine what “serious consequences” means and how to implement said consequences.[_]The risk posed by “degraded sarin and mustard agents” may or may not meet the Security Council’s criteria for imposing “severe consequences”.[/ul]I’m sure there are more options here, but the reality is we’re stuck with the damn fool war we’ve got and we had better make the best of it.[/li] If anyone is really worried about proliferation of WMD, the caches which seem the most worrisome to me are [those in the former USSR](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/09/60minutes/main553155.shtml). > [@](#): > > In these primitive labs Dr. Bakhtiyar Suleimenov has preserved hundreds of samples of the most hazardous bacteria or pathogens known to man - all collected from natural outbreaks of the disease in this former Soviet republic. > > How dangerous are the pathogens that are housed in the lab’s refrigerator? > “The diseases we work with are very dangerous, foremost among them the plague,” says Dr. Suleimenov. > > And how much damage would it cause if these pathogens were released? How many people could it kill? > > “This is a purified strain of plague,” says Suleimenov. “If it was stolen, it could start an epidemic.” > > Suleimenov is referring to the same germ that causes bubonic plague. And it’s not the only deadly bacteria stored here. The room also contains cholera and anthrax. > > “This is the most dangerous room in Kazakhstan,” says Suleimenov. > > It’s the most dangerous room with the most inadequate security. Wax seals and simple padlocks are hardly enough to keep deadly diseases out of the hands of terrorists, and Dr. Suleimenov knows it. > > “We know it’s not enough but that’s all we can afford,” says Suleimenov. “Without American help, we wouldn’t have even that.” > > There is a wall made of concrete and barbed wire that is an example of the kind of security American money can buy. It may not look like much, but it has kept intruders out. Before that, there was nothing separating would-be terrorists from the dangerous biological agents inside. > > The people responsible for funding this security system are former Sen. Sam Nunn and Sen. Richard Lugar, who established the U.S. program in 1991 that helps former Soviet republics get rid of their weapons of mass destruction and keep them out of the hands of terrorists and rogue states. > > “We’re in a race, we’re in a race with terrorists,” says Nunn. “They’re trying to get chemical-biological-nuclear weapons, we’re trying to prevent it. They’re running; we’re walking. We’re not doing enough.” > > What’s even more frightening than Kazakhstan’s germ storehouse is what’s kept in a former bio-weapons lab in Obolensk, Russia. That’s where deadly germs like those collected in Kazakhstan were genetically altered to become even better killers. Here, too, Nunn and Lugar stepped into a dangerous vacuum. > > “We put security around the place where we found it,” says Lugar. “First of all, just barbed wire fencing and one guard, and deadly pathogens on the third floor that would have killed about everybody in the world. So this is dangerous stuff.” With the manpower and money spent on the Iraq war we could have secured this and hundreds of other caches in the former USSR. Just one more data point for those who want to ask “why this war, why now?” Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/18 "2006-06-22T16:38:43Z")
What part of “before 1991” and “degraded” is failing to penetrate? Seriously, what the fuck, OP? No more effort on a response is warranted, far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/19 "2006-06-22T17:14:28Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You object to my post but not Cervaise’s? You’ve gotten all the response you deserve. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725/20 "2006-06-22T17:27:10Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > You’ve gotten all the response you deserve. I responded to a hostile, ill-mannered post with a hostile, ill-mannered post. You got pretty much the response you deserved, too. If you or anybody else have any complaint, take it up with the mods. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-iraqi-wmds-again/361725.md?page=2)