# Those Mar\_\_\_ drinks **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 11, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826 "2018-10-11T22:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/41 "2018-10-16T20:15:18Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Bartenders as craftsmen are rare today…but there’s a ton of books, magazines, movies and YoutTube videos talking about their recipes and mythos. In the “gilded age” the same was true, most of these folks were working at a few high-end places in the biggest of big cities. They definitely weren’t the equivalent of the cobbler, apothecary and the haberdasher of the era. They embodied that sexy role that lives on in books and movies, the average drink slinger in say, Peoria ain’t that. Your average prohibition era housewife didn’t know what was in an aviation or a sling any more than they know a martini is “exclusively” made with gin. I kind of think we’re arguing different aspects of the same thing, and that’s that most bartenders, present and past, were just slinging beer for the most part, and maybe some very simple drinks. Which is why you get things like vodka martinis being the default in some less informed places, and why an order for a daiquiri got us some kind of strawberry flavored crud. All I was trying to say is that there are and were a few who took it a little more seriously than it just being a job- I think the distinction is more in the approach and intent of the bartender himself. Most bartenders aren’t looking at it as a profession or craft- it’s a job. A few consider themselves as artisans and read up on the history, do professional development activities, etc… but the majority have never done that kind of thing- they learn what their customers drink and/or what their company tells them they have to serve, and that’s about as far as they go. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/42 "2018-10-16T21:39:50Z")
Sure, but these artisans have never been the norm. They rarely are in any industry. And thus, any blanket proclamations on what you should expect from a bartender are inappropriate which is the recurring theme in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/43 "2018-10-16T22:06:06Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Just a guess…ales originally weren’t seasoned with hops. But I’ve never heard the argument that hopped ales are “false” ales. FWIW there is a thing called “Real Ale”, which the most reliable sources tell me is > [@](#): > > a type of beer defined as “beer brewed from traditional ingredients, matured by secondary fermentation in the container from which it is dispensed, and served without the use of extraneous carbon dioxide”. I used to brew beer and used to freely sample the unfinished product, which I guess is called “real ale”. I found it quite tasty but opted to finish the fermentation for the benefit of others. I make no judgment on the reality or unreality of various ales. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/44 "2018-10-16T22:10:31Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > You can fuck up a drink, no doubt, but pouring a nice, cold, dry vodka martini when a gin one was expected ain’t it. That’s just bad communication. It seems like there’s an astonishing lack of airport drinkers in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/45 "2018-10-16T22:50:58Z")
I like a Hendricks martini, with a 5-1 ratio. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/46 "2018-10-17T13:45:47Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Sure, but these artisans have never been the norm. They rarely are in any industry. And thus, any blanket proclamations on what you should expect from a bartender are inappropriate which is the recurring theme in this thread. I think it’s inappropriate and unreasonable to expect every bartender to know how to make the multiple variations on a Corpse Reviver or a La Floridita/Hemingway daiquiri. Or to know the history of a French 75. Or to know why an Old Fashioned is named the way it is. Or even to know what the hell a gin rickey or Floradora is for that matter. But I think it’s entirely reasonable for any bartender worth their salt to know how to make the “standard” drinks correctly- Martinis from gin, Manhattans from rye, daiquiris are lime, sugar and rum. Unless of course, the customer \*asks \*for a vodka martini, bourbon Manhattan, or strawberry daiquiri. Knowing that very basic stuff is what should make someone a bartender, not merely being some guy who can work a beer tap and happens to be standing behind a bar. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/47 "2018-10-17T13:49:10Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > FWIW there is a thing called “Real Ale”, which the most reliable sources tell me is > > I used to brew beer and used to freely sample the unfinished product, which I guess is called “real ale”. I found it quite tasty but opted to finish the fermentation for the benefit of others. I make no judgment on the reality or unreality of various ales. Real ales are more of a British thing- in essence what it means is that real ales are brewed and dispensed in the old style- i.e. they’re brewed at the brewery, and they undergo a secondary fermentation for carbonation in the cask, and are dispensed using beer engines/pumps. This is in contrast to the more industrial product where the beer undergoes primary fermentation, then is force-carbonated with CO2 and dispensed using gas pressure. The thinking is that real ale is a “living” thing- as the ale in the cask matures, the flavor and carbonation change as various reactions, etc… go on, and presumably drinkers want this, as opposed to the extremely consistent carbonation levels and flavor from the industrial process. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/48 "2018-10-17T15:27:10Z")
> [@bump](#): > > But I think it’s entirely reasonable for any bartender worth their salt to know how to make the “standard” drinks correctly- Martinis from gin, Manhattans from rye, daiquiris are lime, sugar and rum. Unless of course, the customer \*asks \*for a vodka martini, bourbon Manhattan, or strawberry daiquiri. Expect it all you want, you’ll be disappointed. For many bartenders, the standard daiquiri is a frozen and blended drink. The standard margarita is tequila and margarita mixer. The standard bloody mary has clamato, pickles and a slim jim in it. The standard cuba libre is made with Captain served in a pint glass. And yes, the standard martini is made with vodka. Standard simply means “how most people in my bar want it”. Now, if you’re asking for a “classic” drink, that’s a bit of a different story and your average bar isn’t in the business of making classic drinks. They don’t even have high ball or coupe glasses. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/49 "2018-10-17T18:37:35Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > FWIW there is a thing called “Real Ale”, which the most reliable sources tell me is > > I used to brew beer and used to freely sample the unfinished product, which I guess is called “real ale”. I found it quite tasty but opted to finish the fermentation for the benefit of others. I make no judgment on the reality or unreality of various ales. Unfinished isn’t the point. The point is it being made in what can reasonably be called the old-time proper way, (and, I think, using the old-time type of yeast as well), without the changes introduced in more modern times. I’m certain you can come out with a spectacularly bad ale using the old methods, it’s just some people prefer that style in general. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/50 "2018-10-17T20:04:03Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Expect it all you want, you’ll be disappointed. > > For many bartenders, the standard daiquiri is a frozen and blended drink. The standard margarita is tequila and margarita mixer. **The standard bloody mary has clamato, pickles and a slim jim in it.** The standard cuba libre is made with Captain served in a pint glass. And yes, the standard martini is made with vodka. Not in any bar I’d be caught dead in. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/51 "2018-10-17T21:33:18Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Not in any bar I’d be caught dead in. Don’t go to Wisconsin, friend. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/52 "2018-10-17T22:37:19Z")
Wasn’t planning on it. Ever. 😃 Clamato is proof that God doesn’t want badgers or Canadians to take over the world. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/53 "2018-10-17T23:42:26Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > Why don’t we just call it something else? > > Sure, there are some of you who will argue that vodka is/isn’t interchangeable with gin. Feel free to rehash that here, if you wish. > [@naita](#): > > Because then people won’t understand what you are offering. It’s how language works. Well, my point is actually an attempt to a) increase understanding of what is being ordered. b) satisfy the gin purists who say vodka is not suitable for a martini And I probably should have pulled quotes out of the Culinary Heresy thread because that probably would have limited the discussion more than my original post. **Ukulele Ike** ’s post (#13) is more like what I was thinking (except that I gave up drinking alcohol in high school so I never learned the actual names of drinks/cocktails). > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > . . .the martini is long-established as being made with (dry) gin, and martini-type drinks are three ingredients as described above. And, aside from lots of discussion back and forth from lots of other people, this is my point entirely: Why not give it a name of its own – call it a Przewalski\* or something and give it an entry of its own on the source of **Ukelele Ike** ’s list? –G \*Yeah, like the horse. Y’know, it would be considered somewhat related to the (Moscow) Mule – Vodka, lime, ginger (ale) [and copper cups are apparently now optional in the new revival fad] – but less twisted. 😃 P.S. > [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > . . .no sausage is more terrible than a terrible British sausage. Looks more like an epitaph than a signature. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2018, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826/54 "2018-10-18T02:16:06Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Wasn’t planning on it. Ever. 😃 Go to Wisconsin for the cheese, beer, and bratwurst. If you don’t order a Bloody Mary, you’ll have a fine time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-mar___-drinks/822826.md?page=2)