# Those Nasty, Lying Right-Wingers! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456 "2003-08-20T15:22:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/1 "2003-08-20T15:22:45Z")
It seems that Al Franken’s deep concern for those who use lies as part of their political discourse does not extend as far as himself. [Franken admits lying, and misrepresenting on whose behalf he is speaking, in a letter to John Ashcroft.](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,95162,00.html) Points for debate: [ul][li] Is this sort of behavior justifiable? Does it matter where those who act so fall on the political spectrum?[/li][li]Is Franken a hypocrite for suggesting in his latest book that it is the Right who is responsible for the lies littering the political landscape, when he is adding to the total himself? [/li][li]Would you characterize this as either “fair” or “balanced” if it was found that Fox News had done the same?[/li][li]Will FAIR now condemn Franken in the same terms that they use for Rush Limbaugh?[/ul][/li] OK, I was kidding about the last one, which we all know could never really happen. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/2 "2003-08-20T15:29:30Z")
Al Franken is a Right Winger? I missed a memo somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c37758/32.png) [@Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Owes_Bess)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/3 "2003-08-20T15:32:55Z")
I find the heading for the topic thread to be just a little bit misleading. I don’t believe that there’s some unreasonably small character limit that handicaps SMDB posters from putting something coherent and fully descriptive in their headings. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/4 "2003-08-20T15:36:16Z")
How did he use lies? None of the information gathered via his letters were used in any book, nor revealed to the public. So, in other words, why would FAIR condemn him the same as Limbaugh? FAIR accuses Limbaugh of lying on the air and publishing misrepresentations. Franken did neither. Is the behavior justifiable? Well, not using the University’s letterhead without permission. But saying that other people had responded to a survey when they hadn’t in order to get someone to respond? I have no problem with that. Franken is not a hypocrite for accusing the right of littering the political landscape with lies. How did Franken litter the political landscape with lies? Did he misrepresent Ashcroft’s or Rice’s position on abstinence in a published work or on the air? Nope. You’re reaching here. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/5 "2003-08-20T15:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Is this sort of behavior justifiable? Yes. It was just a prank played on Ashcroft. He was not presenting false information to the public. Your OP is disngenuous. > [@](#): > > Does it matter where those who act so fall on the political spectrum? No. > [@](#): > > Is Franken a hypocrite for suggesting in his latest book that it is the Right who is responsible for the lies littering the political landscape, when he is adding to the total himself? No. Franken did not lie _about_ Ashcroft or present false information in his book. He solicited a testimonial from Ashcroft under false pretenses for use in satirical chapter in his book. He explains in his book that this was done as a prank. It is no more “dishonest” than a candid camera stunt or a reporter who goes undercover on a story. > [@](#): > > Would you characterize this as either “fair” or “balanced” if it was found that Fox News had done the same? I would consider it a harmless prank. > [@](#): > > Will FAIR now condemn Franken in the same terms that they use for Rush Limbaugh? Why should they? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/6 "2003-08-20T16:25:34Z")
Franken never had much credibility with me and this just adds more fuel to that fire. But, to be fair (and balanced), he didn’t actually publish anything as a result of this action. What he would have done if Ashcroft had falen for the stunt we can only speculate about. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/7 "2003-08-20T16:26:55Z")
> [@](#): > > How did he use lies? From the linked article: > [@](#): > > Franken, a satirist and former writer for “Saturday Night Live,” admitted in a letter last month that he deliberately tried to mislead Ashcroft when he sought personal information from him. > > “In the letter, I indicated that I wanted your story for a book about abstinence-only sex education entitled ‘Savin’ It!’ I claimed that I had already received testimonies from several conservative leaders, which I had not,” he wrote. And this was not exactly a prank. He was trying to get Ashcroft to send him information which he could then use to make personal attacks on the Attorney General. I would assume that you classify Linda Tripp’s taping of her conversations with Monica Lewinsky in order to get dirt on another politician to be just a harmless prank as well. Right? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/8 "2003-08-20T16:33:59Z")
Of COURSE this is a prank. If Rush Limbaugh gets an assistant to call up Hillary and, under the guise of writing a book on how the drug war has damaged the US, gets her to recount stories of her own drug use, you’d have a comparison. It’d be pretty harmless, and well within the respected American tradition of pranksters and satirists. This is a pathetic attempt by Fox to smear Franken. They should resort to pranks, at the very least – if they had a sense of humor about it, it wouldn’t be obnoxious. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/9 "2003-08-20T16:38:00Z")
Tripp’s actions were illegal. Franken’s were not. He was going top use Ashcroft’s testimony in a satirical way but there’s nothing dishonest about that. He wasn’t going to _lie_ about Ashcroft’s testimony. He was using subterfuge to try to get Ashcroft to talk about being a teenage virgin. He was then going to publish that testimony for his readers to laugh at. He was not going to make false allegations about Ashcroft or lie about his words ala Coulter. The bottom line is that he had no intention of publishing false information or lying to the public. It was a prank, pure and simple. You’re reaching here, **Shodan**. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/10 "2003-08-20T16:40:24Z")
Well, Shodan, it seems your OP has been asked and answered. Looks like we’re done here, from what I can see. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/11 "2003-08-20T16:44:18Z")
Yeah, I read the article. And using lies to get information from someone and using lies to smear another person’s position on a topic are vastly different. If Ashcroft had sent him the information, he would have had no reason to believe it would **not** kept confidential as Franken stated in the letter it was for a book. Lewinsky had every reason to believe her conversations with Tripp would be kept confidential. If Franken were really to be like Limbaugh, he would have simply stated with no evidence that Ashcroft used to have sex before he was married and cheats on his wife now, to boot. Do you really not see any difference between lying in order to get factual information and misrepresenting what someone’s position is on an issue? The former is what Franken did, the latter is what right-wingers are accused of. Do you not see any difference between taping someone’s conversations without their knowledge and publish it and telling someone that you are going to use the information that they give in a book? The former is what Tripp did, the latter is what Franken did. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/12 "2003-08-20T16:45:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*Well, Shodan, it seems your OP has been asked and answered. Looks like we’re done here, from what I can see. \*\* We shouldn’t be concerned about John Ashcroft’s right to privacy. Ashcroft isn’t a human being. He’s a **Symbol of Evil** [sup]TM[/sup]. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/13 "2003-08-20T16:50:14Z")
\*\* december, \*\* what are you mumbling about? How was anyone’s right to privacy violated? ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/14 "2003-08-20T16:53:07Z")
Franken’s behaviour was dodgy. At the very least, the use of letterhead was improper. > [@](#): > > _DtC_ > The bottom line is that he had no intention of publishing false information or lying to the public. And if he’d written requesting account details pretending to Ashcroft’s banker? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/15 "2003-08-20T16:53:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Franken…admitted in a letter last month that he deliberately tried to mislead Ashcroft when he sought personal information from him. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/16 "2003-08-20T16:53:53Z")
And **Shodan** , don’t be ridiculous re: Linda Tripp. Let’s look at the circumstances: - Franken is a stranger to Ashcroft. - He engages in deception in order to gain a story from Ashcroft. - Any story he gains is unlikely to damage Ashcroft’s career – in fact, all it’ll do is enable people who don’t advocate abstinence-based education to poke fun at Ashcroft. If Ashcroft gives a story in which he admits to waiting until marriage for sex, that’s hardly going to damage him. - Franken makes his living as a humorist writer. In contrast: - Tripp was Lewinsky’s friend: her deception was an act of personal betrayal (not significant in a political sense, just icky). - She engaged in deception in order to gain a story about Clinton, tricking Lewinsky into a betrayal of her own. - The story she gained was likely, and was intended to, damage Clinton’s career. - Tripp didn’t make her living as a satirist. I am reminded of an old Monty Python video cover which had two pictures on it – one of the Monty Python crew, and one of the New York skyline. The caption read something like: > [@](#): > > Believe it or not, there are 11,362 differences between these pictures. See how many you can find! > > - 11,362: Good > - 7 - 11,361: Terrible > - Less than 7: Strangely interesting Your comparison of these two cases, **Shodan** , is strangely interesting. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/17 "2003-08-20T16:54:18Z")
Hey, if Ashrcoft had been stupid enough to give Franken the info requested, he would have deserved to have it mocked from here to Timbuktu. I can just see it: "Dear Al: Yes, because of my unwillingness to have pre-marital sex, I was often the butt of gay jokes. Hey, I even had doubts about my own sexuality at one time. Please tell the young men of America to hang in there. You’re not gay if you don’t have sex before marriage. It’s just that everyone else will think you are. No biggie." It will be interesting to see if Harvard takes any legal action against Franken. If not, I’m sure we can all be assured that they would’ve just laughed off a similar stunt by Rush as well. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/18 "2003-08-20T16:57:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hawthorne \* > \*\*Franken’s behaviour was dodgy. At the very least, the use of letterhead was improper. > And if he’d written requesting account details pretending to Ashcroft’s banker? \*\* If he tried to use that information to steal money from Ashcroft then it would be a crime. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/19 "2003-08-20T17:00:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hawthorne \* > \*\*And if he’d written requesting account details pretending to Ashcroft’s banker? \*\* Depends. First, Ashcroft ought to know that Franken is not his banker. It’s not like Franken signed anyone else’s name onto the letter requesting the info. Second, a person could normally assume such information to be confidential unless otherwise noted - however, Franken stated in the letter that the information was to be used in a published book. So it’s not really the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/20 "2003-08-20T17:01:40Z")
> [@](#): > > It will be interesting to see if Harvard takes any legal action against Franken. What basis do you think Harvard would have for a legal action? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456.md?page=2)