# Those Nasty, Lying Right-Wingers! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456 "2003-08-20T15:22:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Maci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@Maci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maci)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/41 "2003-08-20T19:46:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*If Al Franken didn’t do anything wrong, why did he send a written letter of apology? \*\* I assume he did it because Harvard made him do so. He wasn’t wrong in soliciting the story from Aschcroft. There is a history of pranksters writing letters to government officials, etc. and publishing the replies (“Letters from a Nut” is one title I remember). Nor does this seem any different than recording and publishing prank calls as the Jerky Boys did. What he did do that was wrong was use the letterhead, which misrepresented his actions as having the official sanction of Harvard. I’m sure they told him that and hence the apology. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/42 "2003-08-20T19:47:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*Yes, I do hate Stuart Smalley. > > I phrased my cut at Franken poorly. “When he was a cast member as well as a writer” was meant to distinguish the time when he was only a writer from the time in which he joined the cast. In other words, it was his stint as a cast member/writer that was contemporaneous with the show’s first big dip in quality; his time as a writer only appears to have produced little damage or - dare I admit it? - actual quality. \*\* Ah – I see what you’re saying. FTR, while Smalley is far from the most annoying of SNL characters, he’s not my favorite, either. Still, reruns of SNL from the Smalley era are incredibly funnier than later SNL episodes, in which whole skits would be based around the single joke of a scout leader sexually abusing a cub scout, a bunch of kids making fun of a disabled child, and other hystericaly concepts. Sorry for misunderstanding you! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/43 "2003-08-20T20:32:27Z")
But he lied to the American people! Well, ok, actually he lied to an elected representative of the American people, which is really just about as…no, wait, he lied to a representative _appointed_ by someone who was an elected by the American…he lied to a representative appointed by someone who was _very nearly_ elected! By the American people! The scoundrel! Where do you go to buy tar? And feathers? Walgreens? K-Mart? Oh, look, **Shodan** already has some! How very convenient. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/44 "2003-08-20T20:43:53Z")
If you cannot distinguish harmless pranks from right-wing lies that lead to the destruction of democracy worldwide and the deaths of millions of people, you have a serious problem. This is one of the lamest threads I have yet seen on this board (and yes that includes all of december’s threads). ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/45 "2003-08-20T20:50:51Z")
And he didn’t even get a blow job, either! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/46 "2003-08-20T20:59:07Z")
You mean Franken? 'Cause if you mean Ashcroft, its kinda hard to imagine that face belonging to someone who’s ever been that happy. Even once. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/47 "2003-08-20T21:54:56Z")
Doesn’t a man who lost an election to a dead man deserve a little ribbing sometimes? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/48 "2003-08-20T22:26:42Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not like Franken signed anyone else’s name onto the letter requesting the info. Actually, this is quite close to what he did when he used the Harvard name and insignia on his letterhead. > [@](#): > > And Shodan, don’t be ridiculous re: Linda Tripp. Let’s look at the circumstances: > > - Franken is a stranger to Ashcroft. Which is irrelevant. I doubt that being deceived by a stranger is significantly more or less immoral than by a friend. > [@](#): > > - He engages in deception in order to gain a story from Ashcroft. Correctly stated. Additionally, he does almost immediately after accusing the Right of using deception to gain their ends. He is, in other words, both a liar and a hypocrite, and worst than those he condemns. > [@](#): > > - Any story he gains is unlikely to damage Ashcroft’s career – in fact, all it’ll do is enable people who don’t advocate abstinence-based education to poke fun at Ashcroft. If Ashcroft gives a story in which he admits to waiting until marriage for sex, that’s hardly going to damage him. I suggest that you are being excessively charitable in your assumptions as to what Franken was going to do with the information he was attempting fraudulently to obtain. A person who makes personal attacks the titles of several of his books is not likely to be trustworthy in anything he says. > [@](#): > > - Franken makes his living as a humorist writer. Correct. Or more accurately, he makes his living as a pot, calling the kettles on the Right black. As I mentioned, a liar and a hypocrite. And stoutly defended by many who would condemn the same behavior from any Republican. > [@](#): > > In contrast: > > - Tripp was Lewinsky’s friend: her deception was an act of personal betrayal (not significant in a political sense, just icky). As I mentioned above, irrelevant. > [@](#): > > - She engaged in deception in order to gain a story about Clinton, tricking Lewinsky into a betrayal of her own. Which strikes me as a description of what Franken did - i.e., engaged in deception to gain something he hoped to turn into a story. Fortunately, Ashcroft seems (by your standards) a person of higher moral character than Lewinsky. But that would be obvious already, don’t you think? > [@](#): > > - The story she gained was likely, and was intended to, damage Clinton’s career. As I mentioned, I believe the story Franken was trying to obtain was both likely, and intended, to damage Ashcroft in any way Franken thought he could achieve. Read the title of his last few books, and try to keep a straight face when you claim otherwise. The parallels seem to me to be almost exact. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/49 "2003-08-20T22:58:48Z")
Nice try, \*\* Shodan, \*\* but you declaring what isn’t and is not relevant doesn’t make it so. You can think that Franken is the lowest form of scum imaginable for what he did, that’s your right. But your comparisons of him to those he satrizes and skewers for their lies are deeply flawed, nearly to the point of being nonsensical. Not all lies are the same, period. And I know you know that, cuz I know you aren’t stupid. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/50 "2003-08-20T22:59:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wang-Ka \* > I think it’s kind of a shame he has to go and squander his credibility like that. You’re kidding about Franken having credibility, right? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/51 "2003-08-20T23:02:26Z")
That would be is and is not relevant. I normally don’t bother with typo-noting posts, but I just wanted to be clear about that. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/52 "2003-08-20T23:02:41Z")
**"He is, in other words, both a liar and a hypocrite, and worst than those he condemns."** **Shodan** , I’ll not defend the first 2 charges - he is an _admitted_ liar, and therefore a hypocrite as well. But _worse_ than those he condemns? That’s reaching. I consider him the left-wing equivalent of Rush Limbaugh. I don’t ascribe credibility to either of them, and both of them are nasty. But my major complaint is that neither of them are particularly funny. Both sides need better satirists, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/53 "2003-08-20T23:07:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > **…Which is irrelevant. I doubt that being deceived by a stranger is significantly more or less immoral than by a friend.** Balderdash, sir! Tommyrot! Deceiving a friends carries the additional element of betrayal. That is so thunderingly obvious it doesn’t bear further explication. > [@](#): > > …Correctly stated. Additionally, he does almost immediately after accusing the Right of using deception to gain their ends. He is, in other words, both a liar and a hypocrite, and worst than those he condemns. Utter rot. The persons Franken criticizes are the authors and fervent supporters of policies that lead directly and indirectly to the unnecessary deaths of thousands of persons. You are sore pressed to lay blame for a single casualty at the feet of Al Franken. > [@](#): > > I suggest that you are being excessively charitable in your assumptions as to what Franken was going to do with the information he was attempting fraudulently to obtain. Suggest away. But keep in mind that is the limit of your ability, you don’t know what was on his mind beyond his own testimony. Testimony, I hasten to point out, presented as an apology. Just for comparison, can you point out an instance of Rush L., the Orca of the Airwaves, doing any similar thing? > [@](#): > > …A person who makes personal attacks the titles of several of his books is not likely to be trustworthy in anything he says… a Next time, be sure to load your humor chip before interacting with humanoids. The titles of his books are intended to do precisely what they do: announce that this book is a sarcastic commentary on the _veritas_-impaired. > [@](#): > > As I mentioned, a liar and a hypocrite. Piffle. As I mentioned. > [@](#): > > And stoutly defended by many who would condemn the same behavior from any Republican. Pure presumption. > [@](#): > > …Fortunately, Ashcroft seems (by your standards) a person of higher moral character than Lewinsky… Precisely how many American citizens are held in prison without charges or a day in court due to Ms. Lewinsky? At what point in time did Ms. Lewinsky urge Federal prosecutors to renege on plea bargains in order to open the opportunity for a death penalty? In what capacity does Ms. Lewinsky serve an Administration that consistently misleads the American people? > [@](#): > > …Read the title of his last few books, and try to keep a straight face when you claim otherwise. Easily done. Politically, his head is on straight. But he’s not that funny. > [@](#): > > The parallels seem to me to be almost exact. An astonishing statement. Its too many for me, I retire. But you must be really, _really_ a whiz at Twister. ---
**Author:** ![jeevmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@jeevmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeevmon)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/54 "2003-08-20T23:17:01Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Shodan \* \*\*Additionally, he does almost immediately after accusing the Right of using deception to gain their ends. He is, in other words, both a liar and a hypocrite, and worst than those he condemns. \*\* I’m going to hazard a guess that the very idea that Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and their ilk might speak anything but the revealed truth in their public speeches or their publications, or that Al Franken speaks anything but lies and deceptions in his public speeches and publications is completely foreign and alien to you. Nonetheless, if you assume or believe that they are liars and that Franken speaks the truth, the difference between them and Franken is that the conservative commentators broadcast their lies to millions in order to advance the political agenda of a particular group, whereas Franken’s “deception” did not broadcast anything to anyone. Liar he may be for misrepresenting what book he was trying to publish. Hypocrite? Not quite. Franken accuses conservative commentators of telling lies publicly, not privately. Franken told a private lie in a private communication. I realize that Republicans often have a hard time distinguishing between private and public behavior (as the whole Lewinsky imbroglio clearly demonstrated), but they are different things. I don’t condone what Franken did, and, given that he used Harvard letterhead, was right to send out an apology, but his attempt to solicit private information from a stranger only equates with Linda Tripp’s actual acquisition and broadcast of private information from a friend in the rather tortured worldview of conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/55 "2003-08-20T23:40:46Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t condone what Franken did, and, given that he used Harvard letterhead, was right to send out an apology, but his attempt to solicit private information from a stranger only equates with Linda Tripp’s actual acquisition and broadcast of private information from a friend in the rather tortured worldview of conservatives. Perhaps. Or perhaps the desire to justify and excuse those on the Left who lie and deceive in order to further an agenda, and to condemn and attack those on the Right who allegedly do the same, is a more tortured world view than those who simply assert that lying is wrong, even if the liar agrees with you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/56 "2003-08-20T23:44:45Z")
It. Was. A. Fucking. Prank. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/57 "2003-08-20T23:49:30Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Stoid -_ > \*\*Not all lies are the same, period. \*\* No, apparently not, at least in the world view of Al Franken. Lies told by the Right are dreadful and bad. Lies told by the Left are justifiable. Do you agree? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Stoid -_ > \*\* > And I know you know that, cuz I know you aren’t stupid.\*\* I hope not. I know you would not agree with the above, because you are not a hypocrite. Al Franken is. > [@](#): > > ]_Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic -_ > \*\* > It. Was. A. Fucking. Prank. > > Get over it. No. It. Was. A. Fucking. Piece. of. The. Worst. Kind. of. Hypocrisy. And. Exactly. What. Franken. Claimed. To. Object. To. From. His. Political. Opponents. And. You. Are. Attempting. To. Justify. It. Although I will keep your advice at hand to give back to you the next time you post word one about how Fox News or Rush Limbaugh says something you think is false. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/58 "2003-08-20T23:53:45Z")
\*\* Shodan, \*\* are you ever going to even \* address \* the difference between private lies between individuals and public ones addressed to millions? Lies that embarrass vs. lies that kill? Or are you just going to keep sticking your fingers in your ears and saying “Liar liar pants on fire!”? ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/59 "2003-08-21T00:03:21Z")
An equivalent to what Franken did would be if someone like Rush disguised himself as a member of some liberal group, went to a meeting and asked for anecdotes for a book, and planned to use them in a satirical way. I doubt anyone in this thread would consider it evil or a betrayal or whatever nonsense you are calling it, no matter which side had done it. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/60 "2003-08-21T00:04:56Z")
He’s no different than all the other right wingers on this board. They are getting as shrill about this as they did, and still do, about the bj. They can’t defend real issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456.md?page=4)