# Those Nasty, Lying Right-Wingers! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456 "2003-08-20T15:22:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/81 "2003-08-24T17:37:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\* > Are you claiming that Al Franken did not lie? He has admitted as much. Are you claiming that Ann Coulter did not lie? Are you claiming **DanielWithrow** did not call **december** a liar, for pulling a “prank” rather similar to what Franken did? \*\* I do so hate to repeat myself. 'specially when there’s simply no real need. You can go back and see for yourself precisely and unambiguously exactly what I’m saying. (And what Diogenese has said again, and many others have said) Since this is written and all, everyone can tell that you are dodging, you know. When (if you can) you decided to address all the points made, specifically and directly, regarding the differences between what Franken did and others do, I’ll bother giving you more time. 'til then, it’s beginning to smell alot like Christmas in here… (am I being too obscure with that reference? Or too obvious?) Oh, on preview I see \*\* biggirl’s \*\* comments…hey \*\* biggirl. \*\* I think I’m going to have to disagree with you. I’m a big fan of Al’s, and I am even one of the 17 people who thought that Stuart Smalley Saves His Family was fuckin’ hysterical. There was at least one page in - Rush Limbaugh… \* that I distinctly recall left me laughing so hard that I really did have a stomachache. But after watching him on the book show with O’Reilly, from start to finish, before and after, I think that Al is getting more serious. Not that he’s decided to become a real politico, but his humor isn’t just for yucks. He’s got an extremely serious purpose to what he’s saying, and I really don’t believe it’s true or fair to simply dismiss what he says as mere entertainment. He’s wearing his heart very much on his sleeve here, if you saw that book thing, you saw that at one point he came very close to crying when describing how the left is getting kicked around by the right, and how we’re not going to take it anymore. This man is pissed and frustrated, and the way he knows to deal with it is through humor. In fact, there is a very interesting essay floating around from a recent New Yorker, I think, addressing the differences between the left and the right when it comes to things like radio hosts, and how to get the message across…I bring this up because of Al’s potential involvement. I’ll try to find it later cuz I don’t have time right now, but the gist is that the way for the left to be successful in the radio game is to come at it with humor. Lefties just aren’t angry and pissy enough to support a bunch of lefty Hannitys and O’Reillys and Limbaughs and Rantels and Medveds, who are all kinda boring and angry and relentlessly mean. It doesn’t appeal to the liberal spirit, ya know? We’d much rather point and laugh. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/82 "2003-08-24T21:02:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Any optic-orange sign on his chest was put there by the media conservatives who hate him so much. In their zeal to bring him down, have only bolstered his credibility. So, when you publish a book calling your political opponents liars, and it turns out you are a liar yourself, this is the fault of your political opponents? I imagine that you would make the same argument if someone came out in favor of “family values”, and it turns out that they were committing adultery. Any optic-orange sign on their chest was put there by the other guys, right? Right? I also find it interesting that you consider an instance in which Franken admits to lying to be “bolstering his credibility”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/83 "2003-08-25T20:59:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bizzwire \* > \*\ ***Biggirl** > > Yeah, well, that’s pretty much what I meant, but did a poor job of implying it. However, I don’t think he’ll be able to take on the wrath he will bring down upon him. This little imbroglio over his use of Harvard stationery may end up taking a big bite out of his ass and provide plenty of ammo to portray him as a hypocrite. Not 15 minutes after posting, I came across this little gem which should be playing into the hands of Ann Coulter and Bill O’Reilly in about, oh…the next half-hour. He’s discussing President Bush’s political advisor,Carl Rove: > italics mine. He’s about to reap the whirlwind. \*\* It’s Karl, not Carl, and can you supply a link? I suspect this quote is directly in regards to his letter to Ashcroft, not a completely unrelated commentary. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/84 "2003-08-25T21:16:52Z")
Umm **bizzwire** do you think the swiping of letterhead was the bad part of that story? Clearly sabotaging the man’s campaign was the really ugly part. Though you are correct. If Rush or Coulter have someone read the book for them and highlite useful bits I’m sure they’ll attempt to make hay out of it. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/85 "2003-08-25T22:56:35Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s nothing hypocritical about what Franken did. He criticizes people like Ann Coulter and Bill O’Reilly who lie to the public under the guise of giving information. Franken tried to sucker Ashcroft into talking about his abstinent youth so he could put it in a book. So, Diogenes, are you saying that the ends justify the means? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/86 "2003-08-25T23:38:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*So, when you publish a book calling your political opponents liars, and it turns out you are a liar yourself, this is the fault of your political opponents? \*\* Al Frankin does not have any political opponents. He isn’t a politician. He’s a comedian. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\* > I imagine that you would make the same argument if someone came out in favor of “family values”, and it turns out that they were committing adultery. Any optic-orange sign on their chest was put there by the other guys, right?_\* You have a very vivid imagination. Al Frankin said Rush Limbaugh was a liar. Rush Limbaugh is a liar. So’s Al Frankin. So are you. So what? If a comedian took a stand on family values and then got caught committing adultery, I’d probably laugh-- wouldn’t you? Right? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\* > I also find it interesting that you consider an instance in which Franken admits to lying to be “bolstering his credibility”. > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* I find it interesting that you think that, seeing as how I never said that. What I said was that the conservative media was bolstering his credibility. _They_ were the ones to call Frankin “a political analyst” and “a journalist”. He’s a satirist. And a damned good one. He’s got the conservatives satirizing themselves. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/87 "2003-08-26T00:23:46Z")
**Stoid** Thanks for the tip; I thought I had proofed before hitting submit. As far as a cite, the best I can offer is that it’s on page 146 although he doesn’t explicitly name the source (which is too bad, considering that he devotes an entire chapter to how footnotes and endnotes are mis-used to foster false impressions- one more potential strike against him). I am guessing that he got this anecdote from _Bush’s Brain: How Karl_ (“not Carl”) _Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential_ **CarnalK** No, I think that swiping letterhead is trivial. The issue is that it’s hypocritical for Al Franken to make a big whoop about something that Karl (“not Carl”) Rove did in his book, and then \* go out and do essentially the same thing!\* ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/88 "2003-08-26T00:34:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > \*\*Al Frankin does not have any political opponents. He isn’t a politician. He’s a comedian. \*\* You really don’t think those who Franken is calling “liars” are his political opponents? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > \*\*You have a very vivid imagination. Al Frankin said Rush Limbaugh was a liar. Rush Limbaugh is a liar. So’s Al Frankin. So are you. So what? \*\* So what? So this. Where exactly do you get off calling me a “liar”? Apparently you on the Left consider lying to be a trivial matter. Except, of course, when it is done by Republicans. Then Al Franken writes a whole book about it. Then it comes to light that he did exactly the same thing. And then, of course, the whole thing becomes trivial again. Except not for me. I think telling the truth is very important. For me, for you, and for everyone else. I suspect you know the same, deeper down than is apparent from your posts. Which is why you cannot discuss the issue without descending to personal insults. Just like Franken. I’m done with this thread. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/89 "2003-08-26T00:38:43Z")
**Stoid** I did a little digging, and came up with this, from [The Boston Globe](http://www.boston.com/globe/magazine/2000/7-23/featurestory1.shtml): > [@](#): > > He did some freelance work, too, and not the sort that is on his resume today. He gained entry to the offices of Alan J. Dixon, a Democratic candidate for state treasurer in Illinois that year, picked up some campaign stationery, and sent out fake letters inviting the public to Dixon’s campaign headquarters for “free beer, free food, girls and a good time.” Establishment political elders - Democrats and Republicans - were not amused. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/90 "2003-08-26T00:39:06Z")
I don’t know, **bizzwire**. I’ve defended both Franken and December for their pranks, but Rove went a little too far. Sending out “free food” letters to homeless shelters and soup kitchens, when you have no intent on delivering, goes beyond getting someone to say something embarassing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/91 "2003-08-26T00:40:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*So, Diogenes, are you saying that the ends justify the means? \*\* Since when do pranks need justifying? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/92 "2003-08-26T00:45:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bizzwire \* > \*\ ***Stoid** > Thanks for the tip; I thought I had proofed before hitting submit. As far as a cite, the best I can offer is that it’s on page 146 although he doesn’t explicitly name the source (which is too bad, considering that he devotes an entire chapter to how footnotes and endnotes are mis-used to foster false impressions- one more potential strike against him). > > I am guessing that he got this anecdote from _Bush’s Brain: How Karl_ (“not Carl”) _Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential_ > > **CarnalK** No, I think that swiping letterhead is trivial. The issue is that it’s hypocritical for Al Franken to make a big whoop about something that Karl (“not Carl”) Rove did in his book, and then \* go out and do essentially the same thing!\* \*\* It’s not remotely the same thing. Rove set out to deliberately sabotage a campaign through fraud. Franken simply solicited a public statement under slightly false pretenses. Franken did not attempt to lie to or defraud the public. there is no hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/93 "2003-08-26T00:57:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*You really don’t think those who Franken is calling “liars” are his political opponents? > So what? So this. > > Where exactly do you get off calling me a “liar”? > > Apparently you on the Left consider lying to be a trivial matter. Except, of course, when it is done by Republicans. Then Al Franken writes a whole book about it. Then it comes to light that he did exactly the same thing. And then, of course, the whole thing becomes trivial again. > > Except not for me. I think telling the truth is very important. For me, for you, and for everyone else. > > I suspect you know the same, deeper down than is apparent from your posts. Which is why you cannot discuss the issue without descending to personal insults. Just like Franken. > > I’m done with this thread. \*\* Oh please. I wasn’t insulting you when I said you lie (as opposed to calling you a liar). Unless you are saying you never lie. If that’s what you are trying to say, then— if the show fits. Why do you insist that Al Frankin has political opponents? He isn’t a damn politician. And I don’t care when politicians lie either, unless it has a direct effect on policy. I care even less when a comedian lies. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/94 "2003-08-26T03:52:50Z")
Oh, come on Shodan, you are so full of it. Of course you are done with this thread… your premise has been shot full of holes and you have no way to respond. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/95 "2003-08-26T11:52:58Z")
Too late, **Natasha**. He’s stormed off in a huff, he won’t be reading that. Rather a shame, too, because I was just about to say that he had utterly obliterated all arguments in opposition, and that his rhetorical brilliance was only matched by the sheer depth of his probity. But I guess he’ll never know. Since he’s done with this thread, and all. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/96 "2003-08-26T12:46:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Except not for me. I think telling the truth is very important. For me, for you, and for everyone else. > > I suspect you know the same, deeper down than is apparent from your posts. Which is why you cannot discuss the issue without descending to personal insults. Just like Franken. > > I’m done with this thread. \*\* Too bad, because I didn’t read this tripe over the weekend, and just got to it. > [@](#): > > Are you claiming DanielWithrow did not call december a liar, for pulling a “prank” rather similar to what Franken did? **I’m** claiming I didn’t do that. I called **December** a stinking liar for: 1. Comparing his prank to Sokal’s – a totally bogus, self-aggrandizing comparison; and 2. Claiming that his thread “demonstrated that some posters will criticize the words of a Republican, but it’s OK with them when a Democrat says the same thing,” a contemptible lie. Sure, he lied in his OP as well, breaking the rules of the forum. Did you read that whole thread? I addressed this SPECIFIC comparison later in that thread: > [@](#): > > Oh, and while the comparison of Franken and December is interesting, I have a question: > > Does the USPS have rules against using the mail to perform pranks? > > Does the SDMB have rules against using the boards to perform pranks? > > My understanding is that Franken was performing his prank in an appropriate venue; December was not. Further, Franken wasn’t (in this insteance) trolling, whereas Decmeber was. > > Not that trolling is inherently bad – and I’m sure Franken has trolled before, and I’ve found trolls on other boards to be funny sometimes. The fact that December’s latest troll was poorly executed and doesn’t make the point he wants to make is irrelevant, however – the point is that, near as I can tell, it WAS a troll, and December knows that’s not allowed. Later, I address my reasons for thinking that december’s trolling isn’t in the fine tradition of real-world trolling, my reasons for thinking it sucks even if trolling were allowed around these parts: > [@](#): > > While sometimes deceptive practices can lead ultimately to making a good point, this is not one of those cases: the point it’s making is invalid, his rhetoric starts off extremely dishonest, and it never stops being dishonest, even when it gets to its ultimate point. Does Franken’s point fall under these criteria? I confess that I don’t properly understand his point in the first place, so I can’t say for sure if it does. However, I believe his point is that those preaching abstinence don’t have abstinence stories to tell. If he’d published a book in which he offered as evidence of such that nobody responded to his letter, I’d agree that his point sucked, that it remained deceptive through its final point. Since his prank was short-circuited, we won’t ever know. Jesus, **Shodan**. For someone who claims the truth is important to him, you sure play fast and loose with it. It’s pretty funny that you imply I’m the hypocrite. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/97 "2003-09-25T19:29:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bizzwire \* > **Stoid > Thanks for the tip; I thought I had proofed before hitting submit. As far as a cite, the best I can offer is that it’s on page 146 although he doesn’t explicitly name the source (which is too bad, considering that he devotes an entire chapter to how footnotes and endnotes are mis-used to foster false impressions- one more potential strike against him)…** Actually he _does_ explicitly name the source. He has 13 pages of single spaced, small type “Sources and Notes” starting on page 355. In the section on chapter 21 (on page 359) it says: > [@](#): > > Information about Karl Rove’s history comes from _Bush’s Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential_ by James Moore and _Boy Genuis: Karl Rove, the Brains Behind the Remarkable Political Triumph of George W. Bush_ by Lou Dubose et al. I have no idea how credible these sources are, but he _did_ name them. ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456/98 "2003-09-25T19:52:58Z")
> [@](#): > > **Is this sort of behavior justifiable? Does it matter where those who act so fall on the political spectrum?** No, this sort of behavior in not justifiable. I’m surprised at Al Franken for doing this sort of thing. I enjoy his writing and his delivery, but to stoop to stealing or misappropriating letterhead to obtain material is kind of stinky. I’m glad he apologized. > [@](#): > > \*\*Is Franken a hypocrite for suggesting in his latest book that it is the Right who is responsible for the lies littering the political landscape, when he is adding to the total himself? \*\* No, he’s not a hypocrite. He’s an entertainer and political observer. > [@](#): > > **Would you characterize this as either “fair” or “balanced” if it was found that Fox News had done the same?** No. And as a result Al Franken (this is the Al Franken Century, right?) apaologized. > [@](#): > > \*\*Will FAIR now condemn Franken in the same terms that they use for Rush Limbaugh? \*\* No. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-nasty-lying-right-wingers/196456.md?page=4)