# Those of you who are sick of us transgender people, what do you actually want us to do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428 "2019-03-23T21:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/182 "2019-03-29T12:04:14Z")
> [@Ronald\_Raygun](#): > > When the IOC uses the phrase “sport as a human right”, I interpret it to mean not solely that humans have the right to participate in the Olympics, but that sport is an integral part of how humans interact with one another. Little League, pick-up basketball, work hockey leagues, high school wrestling, Superbowl parties, etc. Sport supports physical and emotional health, and it fosters social connection. “Sport is a human right” is more like “Play is an essential part of what it means to be human”. Sure, and who can disagree with that? To me that interpretation carries just as much weight without needing a fatuous appeal to “human rights”. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/183 "2019-03-29T14:09:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Classic definition? So, you would be rather comfortable with the classic Greek definition of what a man is, what friendship between males meant? Only the young ones because boinking another guy too close to your own age would be [too gay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece). > [@Wiki](#): > > Though sexual relationships between adult men did exist, at least one member of each of these relationships flouted social conventions by assuming a passive sexual role. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/184 "2019-03-29T18:12:13Z")
I had a thought. Not all cultures accepted that men should have sex with other men even in Helenic times. I’d say my Jewish ancestors were against it. They did, however, agree with the Greeks and Romans on the role of women. Women are breeding stock and property. Do you agree with that **UrbanRedneck**? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/185 "2019-03-30T00:54:57Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I had a thought. Not all cultures accepted that men should have sex with other men even in Helenic times. I’d say my Jewish ancestors were against it. They did, however, agree with the Greeks and Romans on the role of women. > > Women are breeding stock and property. > > Do you agree with that **UrbanRedneck**? Please, I think we’ve all heard of enough of **Urbanredneck** ’s views on women. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/186 "2019-03-30T01:15:44Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I had a thought. Not all cultures accepted that men should have sex with other men even in Helenic times. I’d say my Jewish ancestors were against it. They did, however, agree with the Greeks and Romans on the role of women. > > Women are breeding stock and property. > > Do you agree with that **UrbanRedneck**? No, but I guess YOU DO or you would not have brought it up. Or was this just some stupid question to trip me up or something? I mean, what the heck answer did you expect? Do you really have a Phd? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/187 "2019-03-30T01:20:28Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > You’re fighting the hypothetical, but I get that you haven’t had to look at the question in that sort of way before. > > If, for some reason, it _was_ up to you to answer that question, what would your answer be? Why cant you READ? I said, **I dont set policy!** However as being the guy who fixes the bathrooms on the workroom floor and has been in both, its a tossup. The womens bathrooms are much cleaner and smell better in general although since our floor staff is about 5-1 women the womens restrooms are busier. I guess I’d let them decide. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/188 "2019-03-30T01:46:39Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Please, I think we’ve all heard of enough of **Urbanredneck** ’s views on women. It’s a hijack anyway, you dudes could just start a PIT thread or something. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/189 "2019-03-30T04:51:40Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > However as being the guy who fixes the bathrooms on the workroom floor and has been in both, its a tossup. The womens bathrooms are much cleaner and smell better in general although since our floor staff is about 5-1 women the womens restrooms are busier. I guess I’d let them decide. As someone who USES the women’s bathroom, I can tell you, that’s not necessarily the case. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/190 "2019-03-30T06:06:08Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why cant you READ? I said, **I dont set policy!** I can read, yes. And, I did see (and acknowledged!) that you do not set policy. That is precisely why I worded my follow up question to you specifically as a hypothetical: > [@kenobi 65](#): > > If, for some reason, it _was_ up to you to answer that question, what would your answer be? I will not, however, question your reading ability, as you clearly can read, and thank you for answering my question. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/191 "2019-03-30T14:37:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > As someone who USES the women’s bathroom, I can tell you, that’s not necessarily the case. Total hijack but, now I’m wondering if it’s a difference between restrooms regularly used by a specific group of people (e.g. the people who work in a particular area) and restrooms used by the general public. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/192 "2019-03-30T15:26:10Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No, but I guess YOU DO or you would not have brought it up. No, I think I’ve made my views on equality clear through the years. > [@](#): > > Or was this just some stupid question to trip me up or something? I mean, what the heck answer did you expect? I expected you to clarify just what you meant by ‘the classic role of women’. You failed to do that. So let me ask more directly, what do you feel is the proper role of men and women? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/193 "2019-03-30T18:11:10Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Total hijack but, now I’m wondering if it’s a difference between restrooms regularly used by a specific group of people (e.g. the people who work in a particular area) and restrooms used by the general public. Having been in charge of cleaning restrooms at volunteer events, and as security inspected restrooms after janitorial got done, I can say that that the womens is often just as bad as the mens. Hover-ers and gals flushing their tampons. etc are the main issues, and they can get nasty. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/194 "2019-03-30T23:48:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Having been in charge of cleaning restrooms at volunteer events, and as security inspected restrooms after janitorial got done, I can say that that the womens is often just as bad as the mens. Hover-ers and gals flushing their tampons. etc are the main issues, and they can get nasty. You ain’t kidding. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/195 "2019-03-31T05:26:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Concepts like “man” and “woman” are language specific and human created. They’re not natural laws, or anything like that. Chromosomes are biology, but in our language, those words aren’t referring to chromosomes - they’re referring to a complicated set of physical, behavioral, cultural, etc., characteristics that we humans have associated with those words. These definitions have changed/evolved in varying degrees over time. And they’re evolving now as well. Language is not immutable fact. > > You can choose to stick with older definitions of these words, if you want, but that’s a choice you’re making, and others may be critical of you for making that choice, just as others may be critical of those who have refused to accept new understandings of words like marriage and family. There’s no sense in even trying to enter this fray because of the emotional subtext that always causes these threads to devolve into hurt feelings and insults abounding, so let’s just go with the evolving language aspect of it. If you said that so and so politician was “corrupt” and I said that you were wrong because the traditional definition of the word only applied to rotten or spoiled meat, fruits, or vegetables, then you would be right and I would be wrong. The meaning of the word has evolved through the natural progression of language without controversy or advocacy by anyone. And in my mind, that is how language evolves. But it doesn’t “evolve” by fiat. I think your post is just question begging. If you want to insist that a person born a woman who decides/feels/transitions to become a man is actually a “man,” no different than a person born a man, then you must provide evidence that the language has truly evolved in this manner because common experience shows it has not. If anything, it shows that some merely wish it has evolved in this manner. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2019, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/196 "2019-03-31T10:17:51Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > There’s no sense in even trying to enter this fray because of the emotional subtext that always causes these threads to devolve into hurt feelings and insults abounding, so let’s just go with the evolving language aspect of it. > > If you said that so and so politician was “corrupt” and I said that you were wrong because the traditional definition of the word only applied to rotten or spoiled meat, fruits, or vegetables, then you would be right and I would be wrong. > > The meaning of the word has evolved through the natural progression of language without controversy or advocacy by anyone. And in my mind, that is how language evolves. > > But it doesn’t “evolve” by fiat. I think your post is just question begging. If you want to insist that a person born a woman who decides/feels/transitions to become a man is actually a “man,” no different than a person born a man, then you must provide evidence that the language has truly evolved in this manner because common experience shows it has not. If anything, it shows that some merely wish it has evolved in this manner. It’s trivially easy to do this - they’re are tons of examples online, and in common day to day interaction, of these words being used in the way I describe. Not everyone accepts these definitions, but millions, or tens of millions, or hundreds of millions, do. And more and more each year. It’s happening “naturally”, as it always does, even if some people don’t like it. Just as it does/did for “marriage”. Language doesn’t care what individuals believe or accept. If tens of millions of English speakers are using “man” and “woman” as I do, to describe gender identity, then that is one of their definitions. You can stamp your feet and complain, but that won’t change anything. Use defines definitions, and millions and millions are using these words as I do. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2019, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/197 "2019-03-31T12:14:04Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But it doesn’t “evolve” by fiat. I think your post is just question begging. If you want to insist that a person born a woman who decides/feels/transitions to become a man is actually a “man,” no different than a person born a man, then you must provide evidence that the language has truly evolved in this manner because common experience shows it has not. If anything, it shows that some merely wish it has evolved in this manner. Or… I can just observe how he lives his life, and note that in day-to-day interactions, the word “man” is entirely appropriate. He looks like a man, he acts like a man, you often wouldn’t be able to pick him out of a lineup of cis men without taking off his pants… More broadly, every linguistic change is “by fiat” to one degree or another. The shift in treating AFAB men as men has been ongoing for over 40 years at least. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2019, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/198 "2019-03-31T12:40:56Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > If you want to insist that a person born a woman who decides/feels/transitions to become a man is actually a “man,” no different than a person born a man Except that nobody **is** insisting that a transgender man is literally **no different** from a non-transgender man. That’s why we have distinctions like “transgender” and “non-transgender” or “cisgender”: to be able to identify and express such differences. Similarly, nobody is trying to say that, for instance, the husband of a gay man is literally no different from the husband of a straight woman. Generally speaking, one of those husbands is gay and the other is straight. But the point is that the word “husband”, at least as far as civil marriage is concerned, is defined broadly enough that both gay men married to men and straight men married to women qualify as “husbands”, even though nobody’s claiming that being a gay man is exactly the same thing as being a straight man. Similarly, both transgender and non-transgender men qualify as “men” in terms of their gender identity, even though nobody’s claiming that being a transgender man is exactly the same thing as being a non-transgender man. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/199 "2019-03-31T14:48:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your “classic” definitions will probably “work” for 90-95% of the people you meet. Why not give yourself the flexibility for the other 5-10%? It doesn’t change anything about who you are. It’s just recognizing how modern society is functioning. It’d be around 99.4%, as trans people comprise approximately 0.6% of the population. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/200 "2019-03-31T14:52:19Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Total hijack but, now I’m wondering if it’s a difference between restrooms regularly used by a specific group of people (e.g. the people who work in a particular area) and restrooms used by the general public. When I was a barman I’d sometimes have to check the toilets at the end of the night to make sure no-one had passed out drunk in the stalls or whatever. The men’s toilets were bad. The women’s toilets were an absolute horror show! Like, every week without fail they were twice as messed up. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/201 "2019-03-31T14:59:36Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > It’d be around 99.4%, as trans people comprise approximately 0.6% of the population. 'cept it also doesn’t cover intersex people, or in fact anybody else from the rainbow population, or asexuals, or… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428.md?page=11)