# Those of you who are sick of us transgender people, what do you actually want us to do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428 "2019-03-23T21:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/41 "2019-03-24T19:01:52Z")
Think about it–if you grew up cisgendered you had all those formative years to figure out how to dress and behave and you had cohorts to set you straight when your fashion sense veered too far out of line. If you transition into a different gender at an advanced age you don’t have all that experience of being that gender and don’t have all that accumulated knowledge of how to behave and dress and present yourself and of course you’re going to default to the most obvious examples available in media. It can be kinda awkward to an onlooker to watch the process, wondering if a kindly meant little chat on the subject would be well received and we all have to decide how we handle it on a case by case basis but in the long run it sorts itself out. I mean, I know women who’ve been women from birth who’re so annoyingly, childishly girly that it sets my teeth on edge so I can’t be TOO upset about a transwoman who’s just working out the kinks when some clueless ciswomen never really get it figured out. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/42 "2019-03-24T19:06:21Z")
> [@Ronald\_Raygun](#): > > I don’t know. But I feel like my palm is a little blockier than a cis woman’s, and my knuckles just a little too knobby, and my nailbeds a little too squared-off and shallow. Whenever I hear a transwoman say this I think _"which_ ciswoman are they comparing with their hands?" Because I have very broad hands, as wide as most people six inches taller than me, and I am definitely a ciswoman. I can’t help but think this is part of the whole comparing transwomen to a feminine ideal ciswoman are neither expected to meet nor can meet - no one can meet it. Much like all women are held to impossible standards in our society. Because it’s your body you see what you consider the flaws in it. Most of the rest of us don’t notice that, not in the least because we’re preoccupied with our own perceived flaws. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/43 "2019-03-24T19:13:23Z")
> [@Ronald\_Raygun](#): > > I don’t know. But I feel like my palm is a little blockier than a cis woman’s, and my knuckles just a little too knobby, and my nailbeds a little too squared-off and shallow. This may be a lot of bullshit, but I’ve somehow internalized this due to… pervasive beauty standards in media? Wearing a full set makes this go away, I think because it balances the proportions, which is funny because I invariably have cis women asking me how the process for getting acrylics is like, as they’ve never done it. **I’d** prefer you not use the term “cis” which unfortunately has turned into a pejorative. I was asked to stop using “tranny”- and except when referring to a cars transmission, I have done so. Reasonable request. I dont care what bathroom you use, and in fact if bathroom facilities are limited I’d prefer them to be unisex. Live your life, have fun, dont be scared. Be beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Nonesutch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@Royal\_Nonesutch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Nonesutch)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/44 "2019-03-24T19:32:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I will freely state that I am absolutely opposed to transwomen playing in women’s sports, especially if they have undergone no medical intervention at all related to transition. It’s preposterous to have physical men playing women’s sports. The notoriously bigoted homophobe Martina Navratilova used to agree with you, but she has thankfully evolved and is now sufficiently Woke. (meaning that after she went on record with this tidbit of common sense that 20 short years ago, 99.95% of all humans on Earth would have wholeheartedly agreed with, she got a panicked call from her agent telling her that she better change her tune toot sweet, as the Transgendered now outrank lesbians in the Oppression Olympics) ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/45 "2019-03-24T19:57:22Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > … if their gender is unclear…it’s not that difficult to just sidestep it, right? Talking to people in the second person (“you”) is kind of the default for social interactions. If you’ve got to reference someone in the third person and that person is there, just say “[person’s name] should do [whatever]”… I’m not trying to make you feel dense or anything, but isn’t this pretty straightforward? You’d think so, but it isn’t. For starters, I’m bad with names; also, it feels really unnatural to use a person’s given name several times when referring to him/her/they. Sooner or later I have to use a referral word. And the referrald word “they” is really not common usage yet here in the Netherlands. But I also find I have a distinctive mode of talking to men that differs how I (feel when I) talk to women. Clearly gay men or women, yet another mode. I also have different modes of talking to people I perceive to be of different political colors, degrees of education, social subgroup…but the underlaying distinction is always firstly male of female, and adressing someone who is not clearly either throws off my whole social compass. I’m more then willing to create a new mode of adressing non-cisgendered people, but first I have to know that is what they self-identify with, so I don’t make the _other_ error. > [@Lamoral](#): > > I see this frequently, …they…were wearing a button that said “my pronoun is [something].” I’ve never ever seen these in the Netherlands, where I live. Such a button would certainly solve my problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/46 "2019-03-24T20:07:21Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I have seen pronoun-preference badges. Mostly, they say “they/them” or they say the pronoun you would have assumed. I wouldn’t mind wearing one of those myself, since I’ve been calling people “they” since before transgender issues were even on people’s radars, since it’s easier to just call all individuals and groups “they” by default than to keep track of gender and quantity. I would gladly have people call me “they” if it meant not having to keep track of that any more (even though I guess I identify as male – as a cisgender person I never really had to think about it that much.) ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/47 "2019-03-24T20:08:19Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I’ve noticed you put “debate” in quotation marks, which is good. Because there’ll be no “debate” about people’s right to exist who were born this way. To even set up such a “debate” is dehumanizing and vile. I won’t debate anyone who believes I ought not to exist, I just scorn their evil bigotry. I have a question for you. I can’t decide whether to characterize it as a serious question or as morbid curiosity, but I would like you to answer it. How would you feel if you heard a child molester say those exact words? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/48 "2019-03-24T20:19:34Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I have a question for you. I can’t decide whether to characterize it as a serious question or as morbid curiosity, but I would like you to answer it. > > How would you feel if you heard a child molester say those exact words? This post’s implicit comparison of transgender people with child molesters is hateful and disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/49 "2019-03-24T20:23:09Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Think about it–if you grew up cisgendered you had all those formative years to figure out how to dress and behave and you had cohorts to set you straight when your fashion sense veered too far out of line. If you transition into a different gender at an advanced age you don’t have all that experience of being that gender and don’t have all that accumulated knowledge of how to behave and dress and present yourself and of course you’re going to default to the most obvious examples available in media. OK, but the media provides many more examples of “business casual” than the Punky Brewster aesthetic. I’m certainly not a fashion plate myself and I’ve suffered my fair share of scornful looks about my clothing choices. But I really don’t think it takes years to figure out that red sparkly Doc Marten boots don’t fit in a workplace setting, unless you’re just trying to be the office oddball. My coworker has another affectation that bothers me. She calls everyone “hon”. I totally understand that this is a term of endearment common in the transgendered community, and I respect that. But being called “hon” is something I can only tolerate from a very small number of people–all of whom are elderly enough to have earned that privilege. A 20-something man or woman calling me “hon” will almost always elicit an eye roll from me. I’m down for extra compassion and sympathy, but that doesn’t mean stuff still doesn’t work a nerve. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/50 "2019-03-24T20:31:30Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I have only (knowingly) met and interacted with one transgendered person. A transwoman coworker. > > She’s nice and everything, but I admit there is something about her that slightly irritates me. Her style of dress. Everyone else in the office wears conventional business-casual mundane clothing. Meanwhile she’s wearing mismatched multicolored knee high socks with the bright red sparkly Doc Marten boots. And for awhile, her work email signature said something cutesy and juvenile like “Rainbows and kittens for everyone!” > > There’s a part of me that feels like she’s probably just coming into her own, so I should cut her some slack. Eventually she’ll figure out a look and start blending in better. But I also kind of feel like she can come into her own at home, on her own time, just like everyone else manages to do. If everyone else is having to conform to a dress code, whether we want to or not, why shouldn’t she? I’d love to be able to dress like Punky Brewster too. But I want people to take me seriously. > > I think the transgressiveness of trangsgenderism probably makes it easier for some transgendered people to flout other norms. And onlookers who would otherwise say something don’t because they don’t want to step on any landmines. Like, if I dared to come to work looking like Punky Brewester, I know at least two female coworkers would pull me to the side and ask me what the hell was going on. They would say it lovingly (maybe), but they would make it clear that my outfit was crazy. But would they ever say that to my transgendered coworker? I don’t know, but it is doubtful. I have several trans friends, and some non-binary and gender-nonconforming friends. One close friend is a guy who spent a few years exploring whether he is really a trans woman, and ultimately decided he identifies as a non-gender-conforming man. He wears women’s clothing. And when he first really came out, he wore really cute little-girl clothes. A gay friend commented “if he wants to wear women’s clothes, can’t he at least wear stylish women’s clothes?” But you know what, he wore the clothes that 3 year old girls delight in. Because he didn’t get to do that when he was three. So he’s doing it now. That was a couple of years ago, and while he still wears some frilly little-girl things, a lot of his wardrobe is now ordinary grown-up women’s clothing. I don’t think he delights in it as much as the fluff, but it’s good enough. Anyway, my advice is to cut her some slack. Most women got to wear that stuff as much as they wanted when they were three. Your co-worker didn’t. And wearing it in public is an import part of being able to own that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/51 "2019-03-24T20:56:56Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I have several trans friends, and some non-binary and gender-nonconforming friends. One close friend is a guy who spent a few years exploring whether he is really a trans woman, and ultimately decided he identifies as a non-gender-conforming man. He wears women’s clothing. And when he first really came out, he wore really cute little-girl clothes. A gay friend commented “if he wants to wear women’s clothes, can’t he at least wear stylish women’s clothes?” But you know what, he wore the clothes that 3 year old girls delight in. Because he didn’t get to do that when he was three. So he’s doing it now. > > That was a couple of years ago, and while he still wears some frilly little-girl things, a lot of his wardrobe is now ordinary grown-up women’s clothing. I don’t think he delights in it as much as the fluff, but it’s good enough. > > Anyway, my advice is to cut her some slack. Most women got to wear that stuff as much as they wanted when they were three. Your co-worker didn’t. And wearing it in public is an import part of being able to own that stuff. If you were a manager and you had transman employee who came to work wearing sports jerseys and basketball sneakers while everyone else dressed in typical business-casual attire per the employee handbook, would you cut him some slack? Or would you worry that by cutting him slack, you’re holding him to a different standard than you would everyone else? I’m not talking about someone wearing crazy outfits in their leisure, because people should be free to dress however they want on their own time. I’m talking about someone not conforming to workplace dress code. I’m totally down for getting rid of workplace dress codes. But I’m not OK with giving some people a break on following the dress code based on what may or may not have happened in their childhood and holding everyone else to it based on assumptions about their childhood. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/52 "2019-03-24T21:42:47Z")
If his outfit was a violation of the written dress code, I would tell him, and ask him to comply. If it was just oddly styled, I’d ignore it, unless he had a lot of interaction with clients. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/53 "2019-03-24T22:15:53Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I have a question for you. I can’t decide whether to characterize it as a serious question or as morbid curiosity, but I would like you to answer it. > > How would you feel if you heard a child molester say those exact words? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This post’s implicit comparison of transgender people with child molesters is hateful and disgusting. Seriously, what the hell? That isn’t even saying “I AM sick of transgender people and this is what I want you to do.” That’s at least a question and an answer, even if the answer is mean or stupid. What he said is just pointless, mean spirited thread shitting. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/54 "2019-03-24T22:33:41Z")
Well, trans people can be just as annoying as cis people and nobody’s so amazing that everyone in the world likes them so I wouldn’t worry TOO hard about finding your trans coworker irritating. Sounds like it’s less a trans thing than just an annoying person thing and the dress issue is something their direct supervisor will need to address if necessary. I have an acquaintance who was super fucking annoying even before she decided to transition and she’s super fucking annoying now–I mean, to the point that, in private and speaking to good friends who also know her I will, once in a while, intentionally misgender her to convey just HOW annoying I find her. It’s mean of me but once in a while my irritation with her just gets away from me. I do try to find better ways of being insulting about her incredibly annoying ways though because misgendering her is such a cheap shot it makes me feel bad to be so fucking inept. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/55 "2019-03-24T22:48:18Z")
I think that’s really taking it a little too far. As annoyed as you may be, misgendering is more than just a cheap shot, it’s overly personal and nasty. Even if it’s behind closed doors. If I hated a black co-worker - because he was an asshole, not because he was black - I wouldn’t say “that black bastard” or whatever, not behind closed doors, not in my head, not anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/56 "2019-03-24T23:00:48Z")
Accepting for a moment—just for the sake of argument—that comparison on its own terms. We don’t insist that pedophiles stop existing; just that they stop doing things that harm others. The question now is what does a transgender person do that harms others? Do any of these things harm others? Letting them choose their names, their pronouns, their gender identities, their manner of dress and hairstyle and makeup, the restroom they feel comfortable in? Letting them be honest and open about their identities and choices, like anyone else is allowed? The answer we are coming to as a society is no, these things don’t harm others, and allowing them brings benefits to transgender people. We still believe that anyone sexually assaulting minors is harmful, regardless of whether that person identifies as a pedophile. So there’s no inherent contradiction here. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/57 "2019-03-24T23:39:53Z")
As a hopefully-sympathetic hopefully-ally, I think the OP makes a valuable argument. There are zillions of threads on reddit along the lines of “change my view - there are only two genders” or the equivalent, and the response I always want to type up – but it just seems so exhausting, and the thread usually already has hundreds of posts – is along the lines of: Well, I disagree with you. But, even if you were right, even if you absolutely 100% convinced me that the facts are on your side, to the extent that there are facts, well, then, what next? There are still transmen and transwomen living in our world. What do you propose to do about them? Is the world a better place if either laws or societally-enforced-mores require that someone who is probably-XY-and-had-a-penis-before-surgery inform people of that at all times, and go by “him” and “he” and “man”? What precise laws or policies do you propose? Laws against wearing the “wrong” clothes? Or changing your name? What, precisely, are your proposals? And how will they make the world a better and happier and juster and fairer place? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/58 "2019-03-24T23:43:01Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > This suggestion reminds me what abolitionists did to convince white people that slavery was wrong. They would show photographs of the whitest-looking slave children they could find. Of course that helped white people see the horror of slavery…but only because it reminded whites that if kids who looked like that could be enslaved, so could _their_ kids. It didn’t actually convince white people that black people were just as human as they were, though. I feel like that’s not a bad strategy, though. I feel like the bathroom issue, for example, is a big one (since you have to use the bathroom all the time) and if this at least convinced the phobes to move on that issue, hey, that’s a win. I’m not saying they would wait their turn for full rights, but it will take time and that step would be a good one. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/59 "2019-03-25T00:04:56Z")
Showing conventionally attractive passing binary transpeople works in some regards as a kind of reductio ad absurdum, but it’s such a common argument almost anybody who has ever tuned into the conversation has heard it. A lot of people **have** in fact, settled on the answer “only let them in if they pass”, some have even gone so far as to apply this to people like gender non-conforming cis-identifying women e.g. butch lesbians. (Note, I am in no way endorsing this, I’m just pointing out that it’s a viewpoint I’ve seen a lot of people arrive at). It also only applies to a very narrow band of issues (restrooms, locker rooms, other areas where you don’t really interact with people). The argument remains somewhat unaddressed in arenas like rape survivor or eating disorder support groups targeted towards women. Most TERFs I’ve seen have moved the issue to these arenas because it’s much easier for them to construct a narrative about “shared experience from childhood” and somethingsomething #biotruths, and just showing someone who’s conventionally passing doesn’t act as a quick and dirty shutdown. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428/60 "2019-03-25T00:11:23Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I have a question for you. I can’t decide whether to characterize it as a serious question or as morbid curiosity, but I would like you to answer it. > > How would you feel if you heard a child molester say those exact words? I gotta back up the others here, Flyer. This is hateful and you should avoid making such comparisons in the future. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-of-you-who-are-sick-of-us-transgender-people-what-do-you-actually-want-us-to-do/831428.md?page=4)