Question for those of you with this opinion: Which recent films have you seen in the theater?
I ask because I think that will have a rather significant effect on your perception of the anti-piracy dots. I saw 28 Days Later and never noticed the dots at all. I thought they were most likely not going to be a problem. Then I saw Kill Bill and caught them a few times. Still not too bad, just a very slight momentary distraction. Then I saw Master and Commander. . . And the dots drove me nuts!
As has been noted, red dots on a scene filled with fog and water are very noticeable. It wouldn’t be so bad if they were displayed only at wide intervals in the movie, but there were sequences that had the dots (sometimes in different patterns) being displayed on and off for almost a minute. I don’t think I’m being overly sensitive here to feel that this was to the detriment of the film. Though the movie was about privateers, I really didn’t need the constant reminders of modern day piracy. I like to get lost in the story and the scenery. The dots are as bad as an ancient Roman character wearing a modern wristwatch(or any serious continuity error or blatant anachronism) in terms of removing you from the movie’s world.
I believe we as movie-goers have every right to be irritated by this particular anti-piracy measure. I’ve yet to hear any convincing arguments as to how it will actually combat piracy in any effective or meaningful way. I work with digital video and I feel fairly certain that I could defeat these dots with almost no extra time or effort, if I were so inclined.
And I’m calling for people who do care about movies, to not be dickheads and accept the dots for what they are - an imperfect but valiant attempt by companies to stop some of their investment hemorrhaging away into the ether, because some people would rather steal their product than pay to see it.
I care about movies. A lot. I see 30-60 films a year in the theatre, and probably buy more DVD’s than that. And I want to keep watching movies for a long time, so I can accept the fact that protection technology has to advance with piracy technology. And right now that means red dots, which could probably be better hidden but for now flash onscreen for 1/12 of a second.
But because I’m a logical, level-headed consumer, I can ignore them and keep on watching the film. Sometimes I notice the reel-change holes too, and they pull me out of the movie for about half a second and then I forget them.
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Hope those didn’t ruin the post for you.
S_George: “But because I’m a logical, level-headed consumer, I can ignore them and keep on watching the film. Sometimes I notice the reel-change holes too, and they pull me out of the movie for about half a second and then I forget them.”
We are all quite capable of doing so I think, we all have had to sit through dust specks and hair in the projector lens. I think the gripes with the thread (and myself) really lie in that the movie-going public is being involuntarily inflicted with a deliberate degradation of the movie quality. Many have posted simple alternatives to the “red dotting” that can still prevent or track film piracy.
Especially when paying full-price of $10 or more for tickets, I for one have been opting out of seeing several movies lately based upon the severity of feednack about the red dots. The theaters are losing customers because of the process and the poor word-of-mouth generated, it doesn’t take an MBA to see the cost-benefit problems with the red dots.
I don’t obsess over details. I was really “feeling” the movie Master and Commander as I was watching it. I know nothing about that era or sailing but it all seemed very authentic and very thrilling and I was totally in the moment, as though I were really there. Then I saw a group of red dots right smack dab in the middle of the screen. Then I saw them again. And again. I couldn’t help but notice them every time they showed up now. I hadn’t noticed them in Kill Bill or 28 Days Later, but I was sure as hell seeing them now. And so–right in the middle of one of the most dramatic scenes in the movie–I was taken out of the experience. I was able to eventually put them out of mind and continue enjoying the movie, but they definitely detracted from the whole experience for me.
My roommate recently bought a BIG (60 inch) 16:9 television. It’s awesome! With the lights out, a DVD spinning, the surround-sound cranked up, and some microwave popcorn and a soda I can get a pretty darned good “theater experience” right in my own home. It’s better, really. I can stretch out on the couch, pause the movie for a potty break–all the comforts of home! No outrageous prices, no crying babies or cell phones, no waiting in lines and scrambling for a good seat on opening night, no red dots on the screen.
I am an avid moviegoer, but more and more often I find myself seeing an ad for a movie and thinking, “I’ll wait until it’s out on video and watch it at home.” Sure, I’ll still turn out for the “event” movies like ROTK, but all in all I’m probably only going to the theater about 1/3 as much as I used to. I still watch just as many movies (probably more), but I do it at home.
These red dots are making me even less enthusiastic about spending my money in a theater. Hollywood should probably be worried more about keeping people in theaters by providing a good experience than about piracy. In my opinion they are shooting themselves in the foot.
Went to the cinema last night, didnt notice any red dots (it was Matrix Revolations). Maybe theyve not been brought in over here, however, dispite all of that, I really cant understand how these dot could be annoying, I mean how long do they last? seconds?
And, um, just a thought, those of you walking out of the cinema demanding your money back because of the red dots, isnt that “like cutting off your nose to spite your face?” How could a dot, or several dots make you miss an important movie point? Only way I can fathom it, is if you turn to person your with, and ask Did they see them or whatever, thus taking your attention from the movie screen. And if thats how it happens… well, thats your fault.
But anyway, different point completely, if youve ever watched a pirate copy of anything, or downloaded music illegally, or infringed on copyright, or piracy laws in anyway, then who are you* or I to complain about these measures? its our own fault.
Imagine buying a new CD, only to find out that there’s a beep in the middle of each track. “Is there something wrong with this CD?” you ask. “No,” comes the reply, “those beeps identify your copy of the CD. Just making sure you won’t make any copies for your friends.”
And you respond… “Gee, what an imperfect but valiant attempt. It’s annoying, but I’m willing to accept that annoyance to further the important goal of raising your profits.” Right?
A valiant attempt would be improving the theater experience so people prefer to see movies there, not degrading it to keep an eye on people who are already in the theater.
Yes, the studios would like you to think that, wouldn’t they? It’s gotta be those darn pirates’ fault that some people don’t think a night at the movies is worth $40.
Tangent’s experience was close to mine. A thrilling part of the movie…they’re chasing a ship around Cape Horn in a blinding storm, lots of activity on deck. The screen colors are primarily gray and white. I’m trying to keep up with what’s going on. Then…flashing red dots. Again. Again. Again. Again. I’m upset, but still trying to ignore them in favor of what’s happening in the movie. Red dots. Again. Again. I’m thinking “this is getting ridiculous! Once or twice, ok, but it KEEPS HAPPENING! That must be the last one.” No. Red dots. Again. Again. “ARGH!!! WHY WON’T THEY STOP ALREADY! WHAT?? WHO THE FUCK FELL OVERBOARD???” and that was it for me. I was so out of the movie that I couldn’t take it anymore. That’s when I left.
I would be interested to know if they are appearing in other countries. Master and Commander is the one to see to find out. They can’t be missed, if they’re there.
Mr2001 gave my answer to Spurious George. Why am I being a dickhead for not wanting my movie experience purposely degraded?
I’m not sure if they were in School of Rock, cheddarsnax.
I went to see 4 movies yesterday: The Human Stain, Veronica Guerin, Sylvia and The Station Agent. I didn’t see any dots in any of those films. Tomorrow I’m going to see Bad Santa and The Missing. On my list for this weekend is 21 Grams, the Singing Detective, Shattered Glass and The Last Samurai (a sneak peek). Of those, I know for sure there are dots in 21 Grams and almost certainly in The Last Samurai, but that’s not going to keep me from seeing them. If I see them though, I’ll complain and ask for my money back or at least a free pass. voguevixen may not have cared about his customers, but many theater managers do.
:rolleyes: If I were obsessively anal-retentive I’d be one of those idiots who go on and on about Faramir or somesuch nonsense. This is about wanting the presentation to be as beautiful as the movie deserves.
Nothing short of death or dismemberment would keep me away from ROTK, especially since we have Trilogy Tuesday tickets.
I hope your feeling is never jostled by the presence of these red dots. You’re very lucky. So far.
Wait, I apologise for calling people who decry changes to the book “idiots.” That was wrong of me, and it’s not something I honestly believe. I just got so so SO sick of hearing about Faramir that I long ago started skimming over such posts.
The books are the books. The movies are the movies. I can keep them separate. If I let myself start thinking about the changes made, it would detract from the way I want to experience the film, which is that I want to be filled with awe and wonder, not anger and disappointment. I want to be thrilled, not pissed off. I will squelch my hatred of the red dots for ROTK. Nothing, nothing, NOTHING is going to keep me from having the best movie experience of the year.
Cellphane, Mr. Cellophane…you can walk right by me, and never know I’m there…
I can’t see how filmmakers are putting up with this. They spend millions on development of hardware, filming techniques and special effects to create a visual experience. Then the studios go and do this to it. I could see Coppola or somebody going postal at this.
For the record, my post was sarcastic, an attempt to get in a dig at Equipoise et.al. for being such an ass, especially for calling me out with a selfish and immature “YOUR ATTITUDE IS RUINING MY MOVIE” not two posts after I was defending him/her/it.
I don’t think you have to be particularly obsessive to notice the spots; I’ve noticed them before in Kill Bill and others, but before reading the other thread on this topic I assumed that they were just errors on the print. (And incidentally, I don’t think “obsessive” is the right word for those who complain about the changes made to the LOTR movies; it’s just arrogant, since it’s evident that Jackson and just about everybody working on the movies is about as big an obsessive Tolkien geek as they come.)
It’s definitely not as earth-shaking a crisis as some are making it out to be. But they are noticeable, and anyone whose experience is harmed by the spots are of course completely entitled to complain. To the right people. Going all comic-book-guy asinine on other movie fans isn’t going to do anything except secure one’s position as an anal-retentive jack-ass. Complaining to the MPAA or the theaters (not the managers, since they likely don’t care) and implyng that they’re going to be losing money from it is the only way to get things done. Might as well let filmmakers know about it, too, since they have more pull than any fan. Everybody’s got a website.
When the theaters get rid of the talking assholes, the cellphone assholes, the laser-pointer assholes, the uncomfortable seating, the shitty Coca-Cola Stand-Up Comedian/Shill Student Films…I mean ads, the 20 minutes of previews, and popcorn buckets that requires a second mortgage, I’ll start bitching about the red dots. Until then, DVDs are more than adequate.
Why? I love movies. You probably don’t. Some people love stamp collecting, train spotting and keeping notes on every episode of Friends. I don’t. I wouldn’t rag on your or anyone’s hobby, whatever it may be. What hobby should I take up that you would approve of?
This is a time when a bunch of the best movies of the year are starting to be released. I’m in movie heaven and don’t expect it to slow down until January, when I’ll finally get to see one of my All-Time Favorite films on the big screen for the first time (Francis Ford Coppola’s One From The Heart). I’m lucky enough to live in a city with tons of movie theaters. I could only be in a better situation if I lived in New York or Los Angeles. My children are grown, my pets are more than willing to do without me for hours at a time, my work schedule is extremely flexible, and I take advantage of discounts, matinees and passes. I can see several movies for the price of one play. What exactly are you having a problem with regarding my love of movies?
Btw, I didn’t get to Bad Santa and The Missing. Those will be seen tomorrow. I did see In America though, and I agree with those who’ve been saying that it’s one of the best movies of the year.
I’m sorry you have so many problems, but I can’t really relate. As many movies as I go to see, I rarely encounter talking assholes and cellphone assholes (a couple times a year, maybe, and this is Chicago). I’ve never encountered a laser-pointer asshole. Most of the movies I tend to see don’t attract those kind of people (who would take a laser pointer to something like Sylvia?) and we’d go see any movie that might attract those types of people at a time when those types of people are not around (11:00am Matrix Revolutions, for instance). The seats in most of the theaters I go to are very comfortable and if they aren’t. I sit on my coat. I read a book while I’m waiting for the movie to start, and through ads and student films, using a small booklight if necessary. I do happen to like previews (I thought everybody did), unless it’s something I know I want to see and don’t want spoilers, then I just close my eyes. If it’s something I know I don’t want to see, I just zone or read some more for the couple of minutes until the next one. I bring my own water bottle and rarely buy consession food (a couple times a year I get a hankering for nachos).
I can’t offer you any advice except that maybe you’re just going to the wrong movies at the wrong times.
That’s fine for you, sure. I’m just more of a movie buff than that. I don’t want to wait to see the films I want to see, if I can help it. I was in agony over the summer when we were in the middle of a big move, and several films came and went that I didn’t get a chance to see. I still can’t believe I missed Swimming Pool! I’ll see them on DVD, in our home theater (ceiling-mounted projector, 4’x7’ screen) but it won’t be the same.
I’ll just have to put up with the red dots until all the theaters go digital, but that will mean a lot of smaller theaters will close because they can’t afford the cost (the studios aren’t going to help with the cost, even though they’ll be raking in the bucks by not having to strike prints).
There was a point in In America where there was a white background and then I saw red dots. I scrunched my face up with distaste, and then it became clear that the dots were paint, being scattered on a white canvas by an artist. I had to laugh at myself.
SolGrundy, you’re absolutely right. I was an ass, and I’m sorry.
Now that I’m reading this, I’m sure I noticed them in Master and Commander. I’d never heard of them before, and the theatre we were in really sucked, so I assumed that we were just seeing a crappy version of the film.
We saw Elf, though, and I don’t remember noticing them in it, but the movie was so hyperactive that I don’t think I was paying much attention to detail.
I think after ROTK, I’ll start researching movies with and without them. We see a lot of foreign and independent films at the local Landmark, and I may just try to stick to movies that aren’t part of this program, or else watch the DVDs at my parent’s house on their big TV.
I’ll bet anything that the dots are intended not so much as a technical anti-piracy method as they are a way to make a statement about piracy and get the general public more aware of piracy at all. The MPAA (moreso than the RIAA) has been losing the fight to make the public “piracy concious” and are struggling against the widespread popularity of the Internet. This is their way to “contaminate the source” in order to remind everyone who holds all the cards. They can play up the dots as an “evil brought upon us by our apathy towards piracy” until we cure the scourge of piracy.
Basically, it’s "Oh, you don’t like the dots? Neither do we, but hey, no one seems to care about piracy, so we have to do it. " Juvenile? Yeah, I tend to think so, but that’s what happens when you continue to give money to an organisation who proves to act in stupid ways…
It’s a good tactic from their viewpoint: it won’t affect sales very much, it might nail a token pirate or two, and it generates some piracy awareness in the public. The more people complain, the more they can crank up the piracy rhetoric and the more they can hopefully get away with in terms of DMCA style legislation.
If there was no such thing as piracy, there would be no red dots. So yea, basically, I think Im right in believing that…
And yes it is those damn pirates fault that this is happening, cos fine you dont want to spend $40* at the movies, so wait til you can rent it from a blockbuster or wherever.
*How the hell do you pay 40 for a night at the movies anyway? Having asked some Americans I stil cant fathom it, I mean I went to the cinema the other night, got a coke, bag of minstrels, and the cinema ticket for about 11euro.
I don’t know about that; it seems that they’d publicize it more if that were the case. As it is, few people recognize them as anything other than flaws in the print unless they’re told otherwise. If it were to make a statement, they’d do something that would have a greater impact on the casual viewer. This method only affects frequent movie-goers, and only annoys those who know that it doesn’t “have” to be this way. And as this thread demonstrates, their opinions are often dismissed as “extreme” or obsessive.
A lot of the comments in here (my own included) have been pretty flippant, e.g. “I’m more concerned about movies that suck,” but in fact, that gets to the heart of the matter. Understand that I’m not condoning video piracy at all, but I think that the public feels more receptive towards stealing stuff (music, videogames, and movies) when they perceive that the industry isn’t adding any value. In other words, if the theater isn’t adding anything to the experience that you can’t get at home, then why bother supporting the theater? Unfortunately, the concept of “conscience” seems to be long dead, both for movie-goers and movie-makers.
No harm done. I’ve only been halfway-serious with anything in this thread.
Ah, that explains it – in America, we can’t buy minstrels by the bag but we have to get them individually, and they’re quite expensive. It’s gotten even more expensive since the price of blackface makeup went up.
(And I think when people talk about the cost of a movie they’re usually talking about their date and/or families. Movie tickets cost generally from $8-$12 US, with Coke around $2-$4 and popcorn or candy around $3-$5. For me going alone in San Francisco, it’s around $15 US fully-loaded.)
Last night I went to see The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, Extended Edition in the theater.
THEY PUT RED DOTS ALL OVER THE LOTHLORIAN SECTION!
THEY PUT RED DOTS ON GALADRIEL’S FACE!
ON HER FACE!
If New Line has no qualms about putting anti-piracy dots on Cate Blanchett’s beautiful, ethereal face in a movie that’s been on DVD for a whole freaking YEAR, I can’t imagine how many there are going to be in ROTK, the year’s most anticipated bootleg.
That’s it. I have already bought tickets to 2 different showings of ROTK (Trilogy Tuesday and Fri 12/19 7:00pm, a full price showing).
That’s the last time I pay full price for a big deal Hollywood movie. I’m too much of a movie junkie to quit going altogether, but I’m going to give far more of my dollars to small, indie movies that respect the audience. If I want to see a big deal movie, I’ll carefully check listings, and see if there’s any way possible to pay for a small movie (assuming I’ve already seen it) and sneak into the big movie. If I can’t do that, and I absolutely HAVE to see it, it’s matinee or $5.00 Tuesday showings only. I see over 100 movies a year at the theater, a big chunk of them at full price. Never again, not for any movie costing over, say, $10million, give or take.
Oh, and I’ll also be searching out bootlegs that have the anti-piracy dots removed. Oh, you bet I know that’s petty and immature, but if they’re going to punish me for something I didn’t do, I might as well the hell do it.
So what happens if you complain to management? Anyone gotten their ticket price back, or an apology? I’m going to yell at someone in charge if there are red dots in Mordor.
What would happen if the theater owners realized that they were losing money? Would they scream at the distributors?
To the first question, I got a free pass for Master and Commander, but I left in the middle and complained. I stayed to the end of all the other movies, and they were all late showing so there wasn’t anyone to complain to anyway. I’ve written New Line a letter but haven’t sent it yet.
My husband wrote me an interesting e-mail concerning his thoughts on the dots. With his permission I’m going to paste it in:
It makes sense to me, but it doesn’t give me any more ideas about what to do as a consumer. Either way, the theaters seem to be caught in the middle and I have to feel sorry for them, even though they do charge too much for concessions. The studios are really screwing with them.
