# Those states banning abortions made sure to pass laws supporting single mothers, right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2019, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538 "2019-05-26T05:01:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/61 "2019-05-28T20:20:52Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I agree with this pretty whole, except the last line. Support they need from whom? > I was taught at an early age, if you can’t take care of something, you don’t need that something. (Dog, horse, car, baby) From the community. The state, the country. If we start limiting childbearing to only those who are able to raise a child entirely on their own, we are going to die out within a generation. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/62 "2019-05-28T21:36:11Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I don’t have a comprehensive list of crisis pregnancy centers but 2 seconds of googling gave me [this](https://pregnancyhelpclinics.org/en/services) which offers free pregnancy tests, free ultrasounds, counseling about options, help with housing, free emergency contraception, and STI information. Crisis pregnancy centers (as differentiated from women’s health centers like Planned Parenthood etc) give out emergency contraception about as often as Nigerian princes give out large portions of their father’s fortunes. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/63 "2019-05-28T22:52:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So you justify forcing women to go through with pregnancies by making it a punishment for wanton sex? Why would you make such a statement about me? It doesn’t follow from my statement - Hint it is not about me. And for that matter the anti-abortion side, well some of them, would not say it’s punishment, but personal just taking responsibility for one’s actions and choices - like any member of humanity should. They are all for personal choice, but all for personal responsibility for the choice they make. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/64 "2019-05-28T23:56:11Z")
It seems to me that a logical extension of heartbeat laws would be including an ‘Are you pregnant’ question on the census. We need to make sure that fetal citizens are counted! ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/65 "2019-05-29T05:40:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you look at it from the perspective that the woman is a person, it doesn’t. Why not? The fetus has rights. The woman has rights. The woman is culpable for the predicament of the fetus (ideally 50% culpable). The fetus’s rights trump the woman’s rights. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/66 "2019-05-29T05:44:16Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Under what circumstances does the state have the right to compel you to submit to invasive, dangerous, medical procedures to save the life of a third person? > > Do you support mandatory organ donation? How about blood and bone marrow from living donors? Should the state compel my parents to donate blood if I need it? I clearly have a right to life. Under no circumstances does the state have the right to _compel_ you to any medical procedures. Maybe if you are a convicted felon or they have a bona fide belief that said medical procedures are necessary for your _own_ survival. But if you are directly responsible for the third person’s lack of an organ or blood or bone marrow, and said person dies, the state can certainly prosecute you. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/67 "2019-05-29T05:54:54Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Since it is well known that children do much better in two parent households, giving young mothers huge benefits contingent on their partners leaving is a horrible idea. Do you have a cite for this? It is my understanding that most of human history was spent in multi-generational households, or _familles patriarcales_ as Le Play called them. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/68 "2019-05-29T06:09:55Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > See, I wasn’t even talking about welfare. I was talking about services beyond welfare…that could be supported by government funding and private donations. You’re a young single mother and you’re seriously considering an abortion? Well, here’s a program you might be interested in, that can address the particular concerns you’re having about your pregnancy. If you’re worried because you don’t have a support network, the program will provide that for you. If you’re worried about health issues, we have doctors who will give you state-of-the-art care, free of cost. If you’re worried about finances, we’ll help you get on the path of financial independence. Just as long as you agree to practice one of a multitude of contraceptive methods (including abstinence) and you agree to participate in sex education/parenting classes. I’m not particularly well informed but to me Planned Parenthood is the organization of choice. When I adopt the anti-abortion position, I still have to admit that they do many good things. The UN Population Fund comes in distant second. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/69 "2019-05-29T06:10:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It makes sense only if we want society to look like something out of Handmaid’s Tale. Haven’t read it, I’m sorry. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/70 "2019-05-29T13:24:27Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Why not? The fetus has rights. The woman has rights. The woman is culpable for the predicament of the fetus (ideally 50% culpable). The fetus’s rights trump the woman’s rights. > > ~Max Does the same idea apply to husbands and live-in boyfriends and who rape and beat the the women they live with? Nobody should have the right to use your body without your permission. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/71 "2019-05-29T13:44:30Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Does the same idea apply to husbands and live-in boyfriends and who rape and beat the the women they live with? Nobody should have the right to use your body without your permission. If the fetus is a product of rape the woman is not culpable for the predicament of the fetus, so the logic stops there. And rape is also a crime in and of itself. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/72 "2019-05-29T14:58:09Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > But if you are directly responsible for the third person’s lack of an organ or blood or bone marrow, and said person dies, the state can certainly prosecute you. If you give birth to or father a child who is born missing an organ or with organs that fail during childhood, the state most certainly does not currently prosecute you; the state does not even currently require you to donate blood or organs or bone marrow. Most parents will donate if they can, of course; but it’s not a legal requirement, and there are often good reasons why they can’t. If you are saying that parents grieving for their dying child should on top of everything else be prosecuted because the child is dying, I think that’s a reprehensible position. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/73 "2019-05-29T15:16:42Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? It is my understanding that most of human history was spent in multi-generational households, or _familles patriarcales_ as Le Play called them. > > ~Max Are you asking about two parent households versus single parent households or versus multi generational housing? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/74 "2019-05-29T16:13:22Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If you give birth to or father a child who is born missing an organ or with organs that fail during childhood, the state most certainly does not currently prosecute you; the state does not even currently require you to donate blood or organs or bone marrow. Most parents will donate if they can, of course; but it’s not a legal requirement, and there are often good reasons why they can’t. > > If you are saying that parents grieving for their dying child should on top of everything else be prosecuted because the child is dying, I think that’s a reprehensible position. I would agree, that _is_ a reprehensible position. When I do take the anti-abortion position, I don’t criminalize ordinary negligence or processes of nature. If the child is born missing an organ, it does not follow that the parents are criminally responsible for the defect. The parents could easily have been expecting or wanting a healthy child, and did not necessarily know about a potential defect before having sex. Then there are hypothetical cases where the parents _do_ know about a likely defect _before having sex_. If a prosecutor thinks he can convince a jury that there wasn’t a reasonable chance of a potential child surviving\*, and the parents _knew_ that before having sex\*\*, and the parents did not take reasonable steps to prevent conception\*\*\*, then I might charge the parents for gross negligence. I would also put in a provision where the family can ask that the case be sealed. \*determined by a doctor \*\*the parents were told by the doctor and so much was noted in their medical record \*\*\*contraception or abortion ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/75 "2019-05-29T16:19:47Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Are you asking about two parent households versus single parent households or versus multi generational housing? I must have misread you before, I was thinking you wrote “it is well known that children do much _best_ in two parent households” where you clearly wrote “better”. Apologies. But for curiosity’s sake, do you have a cite that children do better in single-parent households than two-parent households? I’m afraid that correlation may be just a correlation - having one parent leave does not necessarily cause the child to do “worse”. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/76 "2019-05-29T17:26:24Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Why not? The fetus has rights. The woman has rights. The woman is culpable for the predicament of the fetus (ideally 50% culpable). The fetus’s rights trump the woman’s rights. > > ~Max That is your assertion, but you have yet to have given a reason as to why I should agree to that assertion. A fetus has the rights that are granted to it by its mother, no more, no less. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Under no circumstances does the state have the right to _compel_ you to any medical procedures. Maybe if you are a convicted felon or they have a bona fide belief that said medical procedures are necessary for your _own_ survival. > > But if you are directly responsible for the third person’s lack of an organ or blood or bone marrow, and said person dies, the state can certainly prosecute you. > > ~Max By denying them access to my bone marrow, I am directly responsible for their lack of bone marrow. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/77 "2019-05-29T17:35:06Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I would agree, that _is_ a reprehensible position. When I do take the anti-abortion position, I don’t criminalize ordinary negligence or processes of nature. If the child is born missing an organ, it does not follow that the parents are criminally responsible for the defect. The parents could easily have been expecting or wanting a healthy child, and did not necessarily know about a potential defect before having sex. > > Then there are hypothetical cases where the parents _do_ know about a likely defect _before having sex_. If a prosecutor thinks he can convince a jury that there wasn’t a reasonable chance of a potential child surviving\*, and the parents _knew_ that before having sex\*\*, and the parents did not take reasonable steps to prevent conception\*\*\*, then I might charge the parents for gross negligence. I would also put in a provision where the family can ask that the case be sealed. > > \*determined by a doctor Based on what criteria? > [@](#): > > \*\*the parents were told by the doctor and so much was noted in their medical record > > > [@](#): > > > > A note that would end up in many records so that docs can CYA. > > \*\*\*contraception or abortion > > Rather than depending on contraception, why not just tell them not to have sex? > > ~Max And this means that couples that are “trying” to get pregnant had better damn well cut that shit out. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/78 "2019-05-29T17:55:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Based on what criteria? I’m representing my own opinion in this thread, unless stated otherwise, so the criteria used by the doctor would be entirely up to the doctor, based on guidelines set forth by the state board of medical directors or, better yet, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. Notably, the doctor’s opinion is not subject to review by jury except in the most extreme cases where he has already been expelled by his peers on the state medical board. In that case the jury determines whether the doctor broke a law, not whether his medical judgement was sound. ETA: Actually I could say the same thing as an anti-abortion advocate. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/79 "2019-05-29T18:43:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > By denying them access to my bone marrow, I am directly responsible for their lack of bone marrow. A child (already birthed) does not normally require bone marrow transfusions, whereas a fetus normally requires the cooperation of its mother’s body. I think breastfeeding is another comparison. Although the displeasure before breastfeeding pales in comparison to pregnancy before birth, the principle is the same _if_ a fetus has rights. Either the mother provides her own milk or she finds another way to get nutrients to the kid, or the state charges her with gross negligence for letting the kid starve. The comparison breaks down a little in magnitude and also because the state can step in and take custody of an infant, while this is less feasible (impossible) for a fetus. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538/80 "2019-05-29T19:25:15Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I think breastfeeding is another comparison. Although the displeasure before breastfeeding pales in comparison to pregnancy before birth, the principle is the same _if_ a fetus has rights. Either the mother provides her own milk or she finds another way to get nutrients to the kid, or the state charges her with gross negligence for letting the kid starve. The comparison breaks down a little in magnitude and also because the state can step in and take custody of an infant, while this is less feasible (impossible) for a fetus. It breaks down considerably more than “a little in magnitude”, and doesn’t compare at all. For one, if we’re talking about breastfeeding, there is another way to get nutrients to the kid. For two, the fact that somebody else (whether or not it’s the state) can take custody of an infant isn’t “a little” difference. It’s a huge difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-states-banning-abortions-made-sure-to-pass-laws-supporting-single-mothers-right/834538.md?page=5)