# Those Wacky Mormons and rebaptising (Not a repeat...its a whole new can of worms) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581 "2003-12-07T18:41:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tyrrell_mcallister/32/16772_2.png) [@Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyrrell_McAllister)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/21 "2003-12-07T21:35:12Z")
**lezlers** wrote: > [@](#): > > It just seems the very height of arrogance. It’s only the arrogance of those who believe that theirs is the one true religion. Since this belief is held by most members of most religions, it hardly seems fair to pick on Mormons for it. Either you believe that Mormon theology is true, in which case it would be cruel to not offer the dead this last chance at salvation, or you believe that Mormon theology is false, in which case it doesn’t make a lick of difference to anyone, least of all the dead. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/22 "2003-12-07T21:54:46Z")
It’s the disrespect that bothers me; I’m with **lezlers** here. No one really knows what happens after we die, after all. What if there isn’t One True God, but if all religions are true, and what the Mormons are doing is actually wreaking havoc in the afterlife? What then? Or, more importantly, (and likely than Heavenly Havoc), what if it _does_ make a difference to the dead? ---
**Author:** ![Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tyrrell_mcallister/32/16772_2.png) [@Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyrrell_McAllister)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/23 "2003-12-07T22:07:19Z")
The Mormons do this precisely because they believe that it makes a difference to the dead. In fact, they have specific beliefs about the difference it makes. Given these beliefs, wouldn’t it be cruel for them not to do this? The benefits they believe it incurs surely outweigh the descendents feeling disrespected. Feeling disrespected doesn’t endanger anyones immortal soul, while not performing this baptism ceremony does (according to their beliefs). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/24 "2003-12-07T22:19:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kung fu lola \* > \*\*It’s the disrespect that bothers me; I’m with **lezlers** here. > > No one really knows what happens after we die, after all. What if there isn’t One True God, but if all religions are true, and what the Mormons are doing is actually wreaking havoc in the afterlife? What then? > > Or, more importantly, (and likely than Heavenly Havoc), what if it _does_ make a difference to the dead? \*\* Well, that’s exactly what the Mormons believe: that it _does_ make a difference to the dead. Since there’s exactly as much evidence for your after-life scenario as there is for the Mormon after-life scenario, how can you say that what they’re doing is wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/25 "2003-12-07T22:30:45Z")
IIR Mormon Theology C (been a few years since I’ve been a Mormon), the person who is dead has the option to accept the conversion to Mormonism or not accept it as he/she sees fit. And there is a Mormon hell - they call it “outer darkness” - the only people who will end up there are the Mormons who have “received a sure knowledge that Jesus is the Savior, and rejected Him.” If I have made any errors, please correct me, **Monty**. ---
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/26 "2003-12-07T22:38:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kung fu lola \* > Or, more importantly, (and likely than Heavenly Havoc), what if it does make a difference to the dead? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Miller_ > Well, that’s exactly what the Mormons believe: that it does make a difference to the dead. Since there’s exactly as much evidence for your after-life scenario as there is for the Mormon after-life scenario, how can you say that what they’re doing is wrong? Well I wouldn’t want a ton of dead people pissed off at me for not respecting their choices in life… who knows what they might do!? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/27 "2003-12-07T22:59:19Z")
Given that my ancestors seem to have been a rather fierce and stubborn lot, including my grandmother who apparently became fed up with the Catholics and became a northern (English) Baptist, I wouldn’t put it past them to do their level best to haunt anyone who tried to baptize them after they’d died. This is one aspect of the Church of Latter-Day Saints which bothers me. I, my father, my grandmother, and, I assume, the rest of my ancestors have arrived at positions with regard to religion which suit us. I respect the fact that others have arrived at different conclusions, and respect their right to do so. To me, baptizing me or anyone else into a religion we have not chosen, whether we heard of it or not, after we have died goes against that basic respect. I don’t know how much Dad or Granny know or knew about LDS; I do know that if either of them considered it appealing enough, they were perfectly capable of researching it and converting if they chose to. (Pardon the confusion – Dad’s alive; Granny isn’t, and the grammar’s interesting.) Attempts at conversion by coercion, which is what this strikes me as, I’m afraid, are likely to make us resistant to the religion the person’s trying to convert us to. As for me, while I don’t plan on becoming anyone’s direct ancestor, let me go on record now as saying that anyone attempting to convert me after death may have a rather annoyed Ecto-palian to deal with! 😉 This is not intended to disrespect the beliefs of members of the Church of Latter-Day Saints on this board. It is, instead, a plea that you respect the beliefs of me and mine. CJ (Episcopalian, BTW) ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/28 "2003-12-08T00:06:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rico \* > \*\* > > And there is a Mormon hell - they call it “outer darkness” - the only people who will end up there are the Mormons who have “received a sure knowledge that Jesus is the Savior, and rejected Him.” > > If I have made any errors, please correct me, **Monty**. \*\* If you look closely,I amnot Monty, but I believe someone who is totally evil is called a “son of perdition” and goes to the bad place. You have to be really bad for this, though. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/29 "2003-12-08T00:15:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Siege \* > Given that my ancestors seem to have been a rather fierce and stubborn lot… I would never have expected… I humbly submit, meantime, that anyone who wished to baptize any of my extended family, in whatever state dead or alive, would most fully respect that dead relative’s wishes by asking first. Regardless of how well one believes someone who is not baptized [whatever faith] will do after death, it speaks to me personally of a lack of respect for the privacy of the dead not to leave them be in that regard. Do they mean well by baptizing dead people? Absolutely. But it isn’t about what they want but the wishes of the dead and those of their descendents. It is curious, though, that evidently because of this doctrine (and someone will please correct me if I’m wrong:)) one does not have to want to be saved (or what LDS call it) to be baptized. I’m probably misunderstanding it, though. I mean, an atheist baptized Mormon after death … how exactly would that be worked out in the LDS theological system? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/30 "2003-12-08T00:27:54Z")
If any church, Mormon or not, tried to convert me after I died, I would definitely come back and eat some brains. But that’s just me. brains…BRAINS… ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/31 "2003-12-08T01:27:46Z")
Active Mormon checking in. I’ll be responding to the questions people have raised, as well as to the erroneous responses given. Oh and **fetus**? That was funny. ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/32 "2003-12-08T01:40:44Z")
Exactly what **Siege** said. Very well put, **Siege** , _very_ well put. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/33 "2003-12-08T02:06:12Z")
From the article: > [@](#): > > The names are then used in temple rituals, during which Mormon stand-ins are **dunked in water** to offer the dead salvation and entry to the Mormon religion. (Emphasis mine) _Dunked_ in water? Yeah, that’s good objective reporting. > [@](#): > > Salt Lake City independent researcher Helen Radkey said Oops. Over [here we showed that Helen Radkey was a fraud](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=188384&perpage=50&pagenumber=2). She’s trying to get as much publicity as possible so that she can sell her supposed list of objectionable baptisms to the LDS church, as a favor to the church–to help it out (for a tidy profit). Given that, they did at least consult with an LDS representative who correctly stated: > [@](#): > > The practice “does not force a change of religion on any deceased person,” said Dale Bills, a spokesman for the Utah-based church which has more than 11 million members worldwide. “Proxy baptism is a caring expression of faith that provides deceased persons the opportunity to accept or reject what we believe to be a blessing offered in their behalf.” It’s a shame so many people didn’t bother to read the article before they posted in the thread. It’s also a shame that the spokesman for the Russian Orthodox Church doesn’t appear to understand things. I would think it would be his job to understand issues before commenting on them. At least he should have made the trivial effort to understand the error of his statement: > [@](#): > > Others say the church is continuing its oft-criticized ritual of posthumously baptizing the dead as Mormons — a practice called “proxy baptism” that critics say is rife with ethical and moral problems. > > “Obviously we can’t approve the practice. It takes away the most essential gift God has given people, their freedom” … “It turns religion into magic” If we believed the practice is what the spokesman thinks it is, he would be right–it wouldn’t be religion, but rather magic. But as the LDS spokesman said, we do not believe that the practice is coercive. Indeed, that would be antithetical to our belief about agency, and the nature of God, and that Satan opposed God’s plan and intended to coerce our actions in this life. As Dale Bills said, we believe proxy baptism to be an offer to those who have died. It is very similar to the work that missionaries do to share our beliefs with anyone who will listen, and offer baptism to those who desire it. When the ordinance is performed, the person is not listed as “baptized into the Mormon church.” Rather it is noted that the person has had the ordinance performed for him or her. It is very different than baptism of a live person where we can be sure of consent. Oh and: > [@](#): > > The concern extends to the church’s U.S. office, which says the Mormons have no right to rebaptize people into a different faith after their deaths. > > “The decision that the person makes is made here on Earth, that’s final,” said Father Joseph, the church’s New York-based spokesman. So Father Joseph just believes that people who aren’t baptized here on Earth are damned. That’s much better. More in a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/34 "2003-12-08T02:18:04Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by emarkp_ > (Emphasis mine) Dunked in water? Yeah, that’s good objective reporting. What on Earth is wrong with the word “dunked”? ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/35 "2003-12-08T02:23:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kung fu lola \* > There is no such thing as a free lunch. I guess you haven’t seen the humanitarian work the LDS church and many others do. Specifically giving out free lunches among other things. The purpose of the records is to make the genealogical work easier for everyone. For LDS, that includes proxy ordiance work. It is not necessary however for the ordinance work for someone to be done if they’re in the records. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/36 "2003-12-08T02:25:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > What on Earth is wrong with the word “dunked”? You dunk a doughnut or a basketball, not a person. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/37 "2003-12-08T02:42:25Z")
From Merriam-Webster Main Entry: dunk Pronunciation: 'd&[ng]k Function: verb Etymology: PaGerman dunke, from Middle High German dunken, from Old High German dunkOn Date: 1919 transitive senses 1 : to dip (as a piece of bread) into a beverage while eating **2 : to dip or submerge temporarily in liquid** 3 : to throw (a basketball) into the basket from above the rim intransitive senses **1 : to submerge oneself in water** 2 : to make a dunk shot in basketball ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/38 "2003-12-08T02:47:35Z")
> [@](#): > > “Proxy baptism is a caring expression of faith that provides deceased persons the opportunity to accept or reject what we believe to be a blessing offered in their behalf.” That cracks me up. They offer dead people an opportunity to accept their faith? What’s the deal? If they don’t hear from them they just assume they’ve accepted it? Why don’t they offer them a nice tuna sandwich while they’re at it? Makes about as much sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/39 "2003-12-08T02:47:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > From Merriam-Webster Look in other dictionaries and some don’t list people as being dunked. Even in this case the primary definition has to do with food. A bit (if I can use the word) disrespectful of what we consider to be a sacred ordinance. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581/40 "2003-12-08T02:49:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emarkp \* > **I guess you haven’t seen the humanitarian work the LDS church and many others do. Specifically giving out free lunches among other things.** In order to be a shining example and good ambassador for their church, thereby gaining converts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-wacky-mormons-and-rebaptising-not-a-repeat-its-a-whole-new-can-of-worms/217581.md?page=3)